Belly tank - mod enables fuel level indicator - see post #27

[MarkT]

I finally got the pump failure others have experienced.  Trouble is, it failed and I didn't know it so the fuel I was expecting wasn't available and it left me on the side of the road.  Had to call the wifey for a rescue with a can of gas - I was in the boonies.  I was stuck there also because I forgot how the Pingel reserve works - I moved the lever fully forward instead of in the middle - so it was off instead of on reserve. I should have recalled as I have the same Pingel on George and always shut it off when not riding.  Getting old and forgetful is a bitch.  OK so I just confirmed it was the pump not the fuel transfer solenoid that failed.  Found a batch of 4 new ones on ebay for the price of one.  So now I'll have a spare with me on road trips.  Along with a spare alternator and U joint.  And bearings though the back isn't too likely as I did the dbl-row mod.  BTW the tank doesn't hold 3 gallons.  Much closer to 2.

[WintrSol]

Mine quit on a narrow road in W. Virginia, with no shoulders. Turned out, it had blown the fuse, probably because it overheated. I replaced the fuse, but the bike still needed to cool before it would run again. I've since surrounded the pump with reflective insulation, and hope that solves it. Maybe I should get a spare pump, but draining the tank and replacing the pump on the side of a road seems to be a problem.

[bentwrench]

I had some trouble with the original pump.After I made heat shield from some alum. flat stock it's gone over 100k miles with out a hitch.

[MarkT]

Yeah mine has a heat shield and I run it for only 17 minutes with a digital timer to transfer the fuel up to the main tank, for when I want to access the "super reserve".  However it's pushing against a check valve with 1# cracking pressure - shouldn't be a problem per the pump's specs but maybe...   There was no way to check if it was the pump failed or the drain-down solenoid w/o some mod to my setup.  IOW, I didn't know if the belly tank was full and the pump failed or the solenoid failed and it was empty.  Now it turns out with careful examination they built it with a short length of fuel line between the pickup and the inlet of the pump, accessible on the front of the tank.  With a 15/16" wrench you can unscrew the fitting next to the pump - it functions like a plumbing union.  VOILA!  With an oil drain pan underneath, the tank was full.  The pump failed.  And it makes noise like it's pumping.

[WintrSol]

What is the pressure rating of the pump? As the belly tank empties, I estimate the head pressure to be 1 to 1.25 psi, plus the back pressure of the check valve and any resistance to flow.

[MarkT]

 2-3.5 PSI, 15 GPH, for carbureted applications.  Made in USA by Purolator.  It has 1/8 N.P.T. ports which imply low volume lines needed.  I wouldn't guess the head pressure to be that high with the light weight of gasoline. And it's meant to be pumping against resistance of carb float valves which actually resist/stop flow - wouldn't expect that to be abuse of the pump.  It's pushing thru the filter R&M supplied as well - though it has good flow (assuming not clogged). If it fails again I may have to find a different pump.  Frankly I don't get it as my fuel system design is to preserve the fuel pump while not depending on it.

I should mention, in my testing to diagnose the trouble, I drained the OEM tank fully with the "oiler" petcock.  Then left it open and activated the fuel pump.  NO FUEL was delivered to the petcock with zero head pressure besides the 6 inches or so up from the top of the belly tank to the petcock.  As the pump made noise like it was working.  After that I found the belly tank was full of fuel.

Last thing, this is with cornless gas.  Which I have run exclusively locally, since Murphy's station came in nearby with pure gas.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,84264.0.html

[WintrSol]

I measure 15" from the top of the belly tank to the bottom of the main tank, and about 21" between the bottom of both. When the belly is nearly empty, and the main nearly full, you have more than 2 PSI of head pressure; don't know if that is meaningful.

The pump is rated 2-3.5 PSI; it doesn't say how it behaves if you keep it running in that range. But, it also says it is for carbureted engines, so it probably maintains that pressure continuously when used to directly feed the carbs. So, your method probably loads it less than nominal, and for shorter periods of time, than the 'standard' installation.

To me, that means your failure may just be random, or you've put a lot more hours on it than some of the others.

[MarkT]

Wintrsol, appreciate your effort on this but my background as a certified SCUBA diver made me realize your pressure numbers are high, and that made me curious to figure what pressures I'm working with on my fuel system.  So I got the numbers and crunched them.  The raw data:

1 atmosphere = column of pure water 33.8995 ft high
1 atmosphere is 14.7#
1 gallon of gasoline at 72° = 6.25# (varies with additives, eg. ethanol is 6.59# / gal)
1 gallon of water at 72° = 8.329# (not sea water which is heavier)

(An observation, the bathyscaph Trieste (IIRC) used gasoline as the floatation fluid in it's bouyancy hull, like a dirigible used hydrogen; blimps use helium.  These numbers concern SCUBA divers to avoid the "bends" - if one stays above one atmosphere - above 34ft - he needn't be concerned with decompression.)

In my fuel system, the pump is not activated until there's at least 3 gal by volume of space in the OEM tank. IOW, I wait until 34mpg X 3gal = 102mi is on the ticker. Transfer time is 17.5min by actual measurement so another half gallon or so will be gone before it completes. The OEM tank is 11 inches high.  Let's estimate there's 3 inches at most of fuel left in the upper tank when I activate the pump, and the belly tank is full. When I start it the head pressure is the difference between the tops of the fuel levels which by your measurement and the above estimate is 18".  When complete let's say the belly tank is empty and the OEM tank is full which makes the head pressure - diff between the tops of the levels - 32".  These figures don't add the cracking pressure of the check valve or other frictions.

6.25/8.33 X 14.7# = pressure of 33.9ft (406.8 in) of gasoline = 11.0#.
11.0# / 406.8in = pressure of 1 inch of gasoline = 0.027#/in

Head pressure at start is 0.027#/in X 18" = 0.486#

Head pressure at finish is 0.027#/in X 32" = 0.864#

Head pressure remains below one pound in the worst case - add a pound for the cracking pressure.  I'd say the pump is being used within it's limits.

[WintrSol]

I used 1 psi per 27.7" of height, which, admittedly, is for water; fuel varies in density, depending on many factors, including how much ethanol is in it, and the particular blend of the gasoline. So, as the belly tank empties, the height between the bottom of the tank and the top of the fuel is roughly 31", or 1.1psi if water. Correcting for the approximate density of fuel (I used 6.5) gives ~.9 psi, which agrees with your value. Adding the ~1 psi penalty of your check valve gives ~1.9 psi; how much resistance it has when open is unknown, and depends on flow rate. These numbers are all approximate, but I still get close to the 2 psi I gave above; I added a little more for unknown restrictions in the lines, and the resistance of the check valve. I'd say our calculations yielded the same results, to engineering accuracy, given the unknowns.

Yes, the pump is well within its limits. I also noted that the pump is rated to hold those pressures when feeding carbs, so its output is probably between 2 and 3.5 psi at all times it is operating in that installation; from that perspective, you are well under the pressures the pump can tolerate. Unless ramping the pressures up and down does more damage than having it hold its rated pressure (unlikely), the failure must be due to other factors, like total operating time, or temperature.

While the pump brochure says it has 'no moving parts', like motors or bearings, to wear out, we know it has to have a few moving parts. Since it is described as electronic, that implies to me that they use something like a piezo device fed by an oscillator, and includes low-opening-pressure check valves. In theory, piezo devices last forever, but they really don't. There are also those valves; a failure of either valve would stop the flow. Unless you have the pump disassembled and analyzed, why it failed will remain unknown.

[WintrSol]

After a search, I discovered the pump actually uses a solenoid driven plunger, not piezo, so the failure mechanism changes; there are still electronic devices driving the solenoid coils, which explains why mine quit when it got too hot. I may have to get a spare, as electronics don't like that, and get weaker.

[MarkT]

If you want to get some spare pumps, this link has a batch of 4 of them, new, for $60 + freight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-4-Purolator-Facet-FAC-40178-Cube-Fuel-Pumps-John-Deere-400-New/133005603288?epid=6020071421&hash=item1ef7c071d8:g:-94AAOSwerRbkudC&frcectupt=true

[WintrSol]

I sent a message to R&M, and they sent a link to a site that sells them for $58.

In searching, I found a forum for small aircraft users of this pump, discussing failures. Seems the two most common failures for them was debris plugging the internal valves, and overheating from running dry, usually for more than 1 or 2 minutes at a time (estimated). Most users had thousands of hours on their pumps, so the 'common' failures were actually uncommon, at least among the operators on that forum. I think you got 'lucky', but I'm still ordering a spare.

[MarkT]

Mine has been run dry for long periods so there's that abuse - I was worried I had damaged it.  That's why I put it on a timer for it to run only as long as it's tested pump-up time.  So I can't forget it.  Not a perfect soln - and I try to use it only to pump up the full tank.  I tried to have it shut off automatically when it was done but the pressure switch I used is incompatible with this pulsing pump.  I looked at level switches to reach into the belly tank too but I didn't have confidence in them.  This timer sw works as a stop-gap but I'm open to better ideas.

Meanwhile I'm installing this T to provide a working drain / fuel status for the BT.  It's replacing the elbow at the inlet to the pump when the new pump gets here.

[MarkT]

Received all 4 Purolator fuel pumps yesterday - that was FAST.  Ordered Thus here Sat.  For $70 incl freight - the price of 1 pump elsewhere.  They are new, identical to OEM, made by the same people Purolator, same P/N. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-4-Purolator-Facet-FAC-40178-Cube-Fuel-Pumps-John-Deere-400-New/133005603288?epid=6020071421&hash=item1ef7c071d8:g:-94AAOSwerRbkudC&frcectupt=true

[Glock3540]

Hi Mark,
  I’m seriously considering purchasing one of the Belly tanks for my ‘98 STD.
I’m shipping my bike to Attic Rat for his GLH treatment in a little over a month from now
so I’ll wait until I get it back to purchase one.
  Do you regret buying and installing it? The main reason for me being
interested in it at all was for the “peace of mind” of having some extra fuel available.
 With the issue(s) you have experienced, as well as others, is ther an inherent design flaw
in that the pumps overheat when used normally?
       Thanks, Brian

[MarkT]

No I don't regret it.  My install is a prototype so bugs were found and I had to work through them.  I need the fuel for towing trailers, w/o a IS tank.  Those are unobtanium or if you find one the going price is well over the belly tank which has more fuel.  Several have had failed fuel pumps and I knew it so that's why I installed it as I did - not depending on the pump except to transfer gas.  Now the consensus is failures are due to it overheating or running dry.  Several including me have installed a heat shield to keep the nearby header heat away from it.  I had run mine dry for a LONG time a couple times.  Per Wintersol, he found a site where the pump is used on aircraft and their failures were from running it dry or contamination in the gas.  I installed a timer switch to prevent running it dry - but the damage had been done. I drained the fuel to replace the pump and so now I will measure it to find exactly what the tank holds.  I am also making a couple changes so it will be easy to replace the pump if I have to do it again - I have 3 spares now.  The design wasn't intended - obviously - to support changing the pump with the tank on the bike.  The studs that hold it to the tank are too long to remove it with the tank in place.  And the wiring is not set up to change quickly.  And there's no drain set up on the tank.  I am fixing all those.  The plumbing is accessible well enough for the pump change.  At least it is on my table lift - be a mite harder laying beside it.

Meanwhile if you want a BT better contact Roger - he doesn't have them on hand all the time.  Plan to install a heat shield in the beginning.  Some others have also installed it as a super-reserve - that is, retaining the OEM gravity feed from the main tank.  None have written it up as I did however.  Or done it with my detail to my knowledge.

You can check the detail on my install here.  It could be done simpler without electric controls.   http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,84264.0.html

[Glock3540]

Thanks Mark for the info!

[MarkT]

I just measured 300oz - yes exactly 300 - of fuel drained from the full belly tank measured with a pint measuring cup, viewed from the side not top.  I'd say accurate within 6oz as it's several measurements as close as I can get them.  This is via draining it at the connection where the pickup feeds into the pump.  Includes the fuel that was in the "bung line". Not the fuel in the pump line.  This may not be exactly what is available from the tank as it's not taken from the pump delivery but is the gravity drain from the tank and bung line, downstream from the closed bung line solenoid valve.  But it should be close.  This is considerably less than the claimed three gallons which would be 384oz.  A nominal amount, kind of like a 2X4 is actually 1 5/8 X 3 5/8 or 1.375 X 3.625.  This is the standard tank, not the narrow-nose one for Cobra pipes.

[Avanti]

300oz = 1.95

384oz = 2.5

461oz = 3

You are missing 161oz or 1 gal

[WintrSol]

300oz = 1.95

384oz = 2.5

461oz = 3

You are missing 161oz or 1 gal

Are you using Imperial units? Down here, 128 ounces is 1 gallon.

Edit: actually, 1 Imperial gallon is 153.7 ounces in US measurements, and 160 Imperial ounces. Your math is close if you are converting US ounces to Imperial gallons.

[MarkT]

Installed the new pump.  It doesn't push past the check valve well at all. Good output at the pump - not so much the other end of the hose with the filter and check valve in it. The level in the main tank doesn't rise at all.  Same pump, same maker. Check the valve and filter tomorrow and if OK I'm thinking I'll pull the check valve and install a manual ball valve.  Here 's the install with the heat shield and exhaust out of the way.  Note the new "T" at the pump inlet with a cap on the drain.

[Avanti]

300oz = 1.95

384oz = 2.5



461oz = 3

You are missing 161oz or 1 gal

Are you using Imperial units? Down here, 128 ounces is 1 gallon.

Edit: actually, 1 Imperial gallon is 153.7 ounces in US measurements, and 160 Imperial ounces. Your math is close if you are converting US ounces to Imperial gallons.

Yes my bad, I converted to Imperial. Very bad comparison, apples to oranges. 

[mrtlc]

Mark is there a bolt missing on the right side of the fuel pump? Looks like a small oil leak maybe.

[MarkT]

Mark is there a bolt missing on the right side of the fuel pump? Looks like a small oil leak maybe.

The missing bolts hold the heat shield which was removed to ease access to the fuel pump.

[WintrSol]

Installed the new pump.  It doesn't push past the check valve well at all. Good output at the pump - not so much the other end of the hose with the filter and check valve in it. The level in the main tank doesn't rise at all.  Same pump, same maker. Check the valve and filter tomorrow and if OK I'm thinking I'll pull the check valve and install a manual ball valve.

Apparently, the one you chose to install is at the low end of the 2-3.5 psi rating, and the one that failed at the other end. Maybe if you tried the other 3 you would find one to work, as-is. Or, they were 4 for the price of 1 for a reason ...

[MarkT]

Testing the check valve, I can't get it to crack with mouth pressure.  Blew hard enough to give me a headache.  It does crack with compressor pressure - of course that's 120#.  I removed the check valve and installed a ball valve instead.  Pumps fine now.  And I suspect the original pump may work as well.  Hoping this ball valve won't fail from corn gas.  BONUS the pump-up time is now 9:04 instead of 17:12 before with the check valve.

[hubcapsc]

I replaced the sediment bowl on my 8n with a brass ball valve about 20 years
ago and it still works GREAT 

-Mike

[MarkT]

Discovered (DUH) I could use the transparent fuel line off the "oiler" valve, draped over the handlebar, to show the fuel level in the main tank - like a coffee pot level window.  No more guessing if I'm out of fuel!  Here the tank is full and the bike is level on the lift.  So if you do a mod like this you could too!  Or even put a "T" off the petcock fuel line and run the other end up above the tank.  Might want to put a valve in it like my oiler valve, for safety and convenience.  Then just insert the transparent fuel line for a temporary fuel check.  Or to share fuel with your buddy who just ran out - say in his Rocket III or V-Max which have less range.

[99tourer]

Mark,
LSK Motorcycle Electronics have a Hydrostatic Pressure fuel gauge that could help?

This link should get you there.

https://www.lskelectronics.com/fuelgauge

[turtle254]

Mark,
LSK Motorcycle Electronics have a Hydrostatic Pressure fuel gauge that could help?

This link should get you there.

https://www.lskelectronics.com/fuelgauge

Yea, I just installed one ... a little sketchy ! Not sure why its not always right. Still trying to get it to work consistently.  

I give up this thing. It is junk; have installed it in three different places and it gives all different reading durn the ride . Only right sometimes and not others. Always random and stays that way for minutes to hours. Can never trust the reading.

[DarkSideR]

Hi Mark,
  I’m seriously considering purchasing one of the Belly tanks for my ‘98 STD.
I’m shipping my bike to Attic Rat for his GLH treatment in a little over a month from now
so I’ll wait until I get it back to purchase one.
  Do you regret buying and installing it? The main reason for me being
interested in it at all was for the “peace of mind” of having some extra fuel available.
 With the issue(s) you have experienced, as well as others, is ther an inherent design flaw
in that the pumps overheat when used normally?
       Thanks, Brian

Don't wait to purchase. They are made to order, so getting on it sooner than later would be in your best interest.

FYI - I also run a belly tank (though differently than Mark), and haven't looked back. Having a 300 mile range on the long hauls is awesome, as well as not having to fill up as often when riding around town.

[MarkT]

Mark,
LSK Motorcycle Electronics have a Hydrostatic Pressure fuel gauge that could help?

This link should get you there.

https://www.lskelectronics.com/fuelgauge

Yea, I just installed one ... a little sketchy ! Not sure why its not always right. Still trying to get it to work consistently.  

Thks for the tip but I'm not looking for a fuel level indicator - now.  Recently I questioned, was I really out of fuel as I should have nearly 3 gallons - but my belly pump reserve delivery had failed as explained above (the check valve I added stuck), the bike was acting like fuel starved so yes it was valid to call for the wife to bring a can of gas - I was a LONG walk from a gas station and who wants to leave his Valk on the side of the road... I had this hose with me and could have checked it then as per this last pic, but it didn't occur to me.  DUH.  Now it occurs to me - as I posted above - that anyone can have this level indicator to check it, or to extract gas from the tank (I have rescued others several times) - or even drain it though you would need to defeat the vacuum fn of the OEM petcock.  Which I did anyway (and is required for a std belly tank install, is explained in their install) And is gone with the usual Pingel replacement.  I got this translucent fuel line from an O'Reilly's but it's available online.

[turtle254]

Quote from: 99tourer on April 07, 2019, 08:59:39 PM
Mark,
LSK Motorcycle Electronics have a Hydrostatic Pressure fuel gauge that could help?

This link should get you there.

https://www.lskelectronics.com/fuelgauge
Yea, I just installed one ... a little sketchy ! Not sure why its not always right. Still trying to get it to work consistently. 

I give up this thing. It is junk; have installed it in three different places and it gives all different reading durn the ride . Only right sometimes and not others. Always random and stays that way for minutes to hours. Can never trust the reading.

[Avanti]

Maybe you could use low air pressure from your onboard air compressor to push the fuel up to the upper main fuel tank through a check valve.