Wasn't Wisconsin one of the places that Defunding the Police was a hot topic?

[Rams]

Multiple injured in active shooter incident at Wisconsin mall
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/multiple-injured-in-active-shooter-incident-at-wisconsin-mall/ar-BB1bdvJ4?ocid=msedgdhp

I wonder if defunding the police is still a good idea..... 

Rams

[cookiedough]

no worries,  Kyle Rittenhouse is out of jail posting 2 milion dollar bail.  Our WI streets will soon be safe again.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-suspect-released-after-posting-dollar2-million-bail/ar-BB1bdmvm?ocid=msedgdhp

how does a teenager get 2 million dollars to get out of jail?   

Every few years there is a shooting it seems like in a mall somewhere, not just WI.  Even Madison WI had a shooting at a workplace only 1 mile down the road from where I was at whole area companies, etc. on LOCKDOWN but I kept the UPS/FED EX, etc. trucks coming in unloading on our dock necessary inventory.... 

I doubt WI has anymore defunding of the police more so than any other state.  Not many want to go into law enforcement am sure right about now.

[carolinarider09]

According to his lawyer, who was on a NewsMax program this afternoon/evening, the money (for bail) was from individual contributions of people like you and me. 

[markymark640]

RAMS, while certainly there are some radical groups that call for getting rid of the police, I don't think you comprehend the actually meaning of "Defund Police".

"Defund the police" is a slogan that supports divesting funds from police departments and reallocating them to non-policing forms of public safety and community support, such as social services, youth services, housing, education, healthcare and other community resources.

Actually, it does still appear that the majority of people ( and police ) ( as indicated by poles taken) do support the idea of "defunding police".

Of course, you have to realize that to most people, "Defund Police" does NOT mean eliminating the Police or striping their budgets to a point where they become ineffective.

72 percent of respondents said they supported reallocating some police funding to help mental health experts, rather than armed officers, respond to mental health emergencies.

Police are not adequately trained to handle mental health incidents and consequently there have been alot of less than desirable outcomes with these events.

In addition, currently police are used in most jurisdictions to transport mental health patients form emergency care facilities to long germ care facilities. This is expensive and takes two uniformed police officers away from pressing incidents like the one mentioned here.

Across the nation, from Oregon to Connecticut, a handful of cities are experimenting with programs that they say provide a potentially life-saving alternative to traditional law enforcement responses — and save millions of dollars in the process.

The Treatment Advocacy Center has found that people with severe mental illness are 16 times more likely to be killed during a police encounter. A quarter of people fatally shot by police in 2015 suffered from mental illness.

According to a national survey of police and sheriff’s departments that was conducted last year, law enforcement spend 21 percent of their time responding to mental health calls and transporting patients to hospitals, at an estimated cost of $918 million a year.

The CAHOOTS (Crisis Assistance Helping Out On The Streets)  program set a great example how defunding the police while at the same time saving tax payers a bundle can and does work.

The trained 911 dispatchers send unarmed teams comprised of a medic and a behavioral health expert to calls regarding the homeless or mentally ill that don’t involve violence or criminality. This program has been amazingly successful and has saved tax payers some $8.5 million per year in public safety costs, and another $14 million in ambulance transport and emergency room costs,.

The team is extremely successful and has only had to call in for police back up in less than 1 percent of the cases they responded to. CAHOOTS Teams responded to approx 24,000 in 2019.

Based on their success, other jurisdictions have followed suit. For example Pennsylvania has teams that are up and running in several counties, including Chester, Montgomery, and Philadelphia.

Olympia, Washington, has been sending “crisis responders” to nonviolent calls involving people grappling with mental illness, addiction, or homelessness.

Denver launched a six-month pilot program through which paramedics and mental health clinicians respond to drug overdoses, mental health crises, and situations where someone is suicidal.

[cookiedough]

According to his lawyer, who was on a NewsMax program this afternoon/evening, the money (for bail) was from individual contributions of people like you and me.  

maybe I need to open up a GO FUND ME page so I can retire 15 years early???    Any takers?  

My co-worker, me and her doing it all, quit on me last day was today after both bosses ran her into a sickness of feeling ill by yelling at her making her feel like a 2 year old red headed step child.  She had enough quit cold turkey NO job lined up at all just could not tolerate both _itch bosses anymore.  She is age 60 and only wanted to get by the next 5 years but enough was enough do not blame her one bit done same thing myself 2x's in my life.  She had her exit interview with HR mgr. yesterday and I told her to mention the H word being HARRASSMENT and sure hope they take it seriously or will be 'lawyer up' time eventually by someone who has the balls to do it.    HR has to not be oblivious to the 7 outta 16 person dept. that have left us in past 2 years..    Fire both bosses, problems solved.

Yah, defunding the police might mean supporting other 'mental' health issues vs. getting the police involved and hopefully not cutting the police workforce since seems like it is harder and harder to find people willing to go into professions that put their lives on the line or influence others daily like even teachers do.    My daughter is student teaching now in 4th grade at a rural small school before graduating college in 2 months and the past place and now this place already want to hire her full time even before graduating college.  Heck, my daughter just told my wife today the around age 60 full time 4th grade teacher wants her to meet her 21 and 27 year old boys she likes my daughter that much.  
  I hope the police depts. can find enough young officers in training to fill the many open police jobs this country has and will be facing for years to come.    One problem we have though in a very small town of 1100 people is the village and county, etc. do not have the funding to pay a full time police officer with benefits so they have been offering 4 part time officers split shifts to make it work no benefits.   Who wants to work part time at any job profession forever especially one where you have to go thru specialized training to become a police officer?    This country has for past 10 years or so and even more past few years is becoming a country where employers are NO longer wanting full time employees ONLY a bunch of temps to work part time because insurance benefits, etc. are becoming too darn expensive to afford full timers.

[Rams]

Actually, I have a very good understanding of what defunding the police means.   I have several friends who are LEOs.   They get called out for all kinds of things that others are better qualified to address.   

The answer in my opinion is to not defund the police but, for city, county and state governments to take the needed money from the Social Service Entitlement money currently being wasted.

Rams

[markymark640]

Actually, I have a very good understanding of what defunding the police means.   I have several friends who are LEOs.   They get called out for all kinds of things that others are better qualified to address.   

The answer in my opinion is to not defund the police but, for city, county and state governments to take the needed money from the Social Service Entitlement money currently being wasted.

Rams

OMG, really,  The old "I have friends that are ........." response.  Wow !

I actually worked in law enforcement for 22 years and I can assure you that most folks I worked with, and if you look at current data, most police in general would agree with defunding police as it pertains to reallocating funds specifically for the handling of mental illness events.

I can't reconcile your statement that you have a very good understanding since you made the statement about defunding police linking it to a shooting event.  Obviously these type of events have absolutely nothing to do with the true concept of defunding police.

[Rams]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Be safe out there.

Rams

[markymark640]

I will certainly agree.  We can always disagree.

[Rams]

I will certainly agree.  We can always disagree.

[Jess from VA]

Very unfortunately, random shootings have been going on for some time.

De-funding police (as political policy) is one thing, but allowing and tolerating (and quietly supporting) rioters and looters to go about their business for days and weeks at a time in major cities (who rein in their cops to being more like referees or observers than law enforcement men, and letting them all go with no bail, no jail and no consequences) will absolutely result in a steady increase in violence of all kinds and types everywhere, not just increased Anfita/BLM antics (though those will increase too, with such good low cost practice).

[John Schmidt]

22 yrs. in law enforcement and still spell it as "poles" rather than "polls."

[scooperhsd]

I have to agree with Jess on this one - Even though I have NEVER been a LEO nor had that kind of training - I did rely heavily on them when I was the Officer of the Day for some shore commands. What would happen is that they would get a call about some "domestic disturbance" (usually some sort of argument between the servicemember and their spouse), and after the LEOs got the situation under control, they would call us for our presence. If things were pretty bad, we would have to order the servicemember to find other sleeping arraingments for the night (said quarters were provided for the family).

Regarding the Antifa / BLM antics - anybody with half a brain would tell you to NOT encourage such further antics by not arresting them for their crimes. Why do you think there was such an outcry here about these stories we saw on the news  ? Because we knew what would come from it.

[Rams]

All I'm really talking about is where the money comes from to handle those situations requiring "trained" people so the LEOs don't have to get involved or distracted from doing what they should be doing.

I view social entitlements as a source for that needed money.

Rams

[markymark640]

22 yrs. in law enforcement and still spell it as "poles" rather than "polls."

SO you feel it necessary to point out a spelling mistake.

I'm sure you've never made a spelling mistake.

I wish I was as smart as you !

[scooperhsd]

I don't make mistakes like using the wrong version of a word, like several folks I've seen do here and other places on the internet. I bite my tongue about pointing out each and every one of them, however.

[Wizzard]

Lol don't make fun of the poles! They hold up our flag. 

[markymark640]

What did the Polish do with their armies ?

They put them in their sleevies

[markymark640]

All I'm really talking about is where the money comes from to handle those situations requiring "trained" people so the LEOs don't have to get involved or distracted from doing what they should be doing.

I view social entitlements as a source for that needed money.

Rams

RAMS, I understand your concern and point of view. However, have you considered why the police budgets are such a hot topic in many municipalities ?

The continuing and growing use of "Just send the police" has demanded that police budgets be increased to allow for more and more officers, and more and more non-lethal equipment to handle these situations. 

I'm not and have never been a bean counter, but I think it certainly follows that if the community would re-assign some of these mental health calls to a new agency financed and structured to handle them effectively, there would be money that could be cut from the police budget without affecting the LEO's capabilities to protect and serve.

And although I respect your opinion on where the money might come from, I'm guessing that most cities, counties, and municipalities do not have that kind of money in their budgets for "Social Service Entitlement" that they can support these new programs and departments.

From my research, most of the Social Service money in most cities goes to programs that house, feed and cloth citizens that need assistance, which is a growing number of people.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the bottom line for me is someone other than a LEO should be handling these calls and the money can come from either source.

[Gavin_Sons]

Actually, I have a very good understanding of what defunding the police means.   I have several friends who are LEOs.   They get called out for all kinds of things that others are better qualified to address.   

The answer in my opinion is to not defund the police but, for city, county and state governments to take the needed money from the Social Service Entitlement money currently being wasted.

Rams

OMG, really,  The old "I have friends that are ........." response.  Wow !

I actually worked in law enforcement for 22 years and I can assure you that most folks I worked with, and if you look at current data, most police in general would agree with defunding police as it pertains to reallocating funds specifically for the handling of mental illness events.

I can't reconcile your statement that you have a very good understanding since you made the statement about defunding police linking it to a shooting event.  Obviously these type of events have absolutely nothing to do with the true concept of defunding police.

Exactly what role did you play in law enforcement? Were you an officer? Parking maid? Janitor at the county jail?

[markymark640]

Actually, I have a very good understanding of what defunding the police means.   I have several friends who are LEOs.   They get called out for all kinds of things that others are better qualified to address.   

The answer in my opinion is to not defund the police but, for city, county and state governments to take the needed money from the Social Service Entitlement money currently being wasted.

Rams

OMG, really,  The old "I have friends that are ........." response.  Wow !

I actually worked in law enforcement for 22 years and I can assure you that most folks I worked with, and if you look at current data, most police in general would agree with defunding police as it pertains to reallocating funds specifically for the handling of mental illness events.

I can't reconcile your statement that you have a very good understanding since you made the statement about defunding police linking it to a shooting event.  Obviously these type of events have absolutely nothing to do with the true concept of defunding police.

Exactly what role did you play in law enforcement? Were you an officer? Parking maid? Janitor at the county jail?

Over the 22 years I worked on Patrol for a year or 2, a Police Dog Handler for a couple of years, a Traffic Accident Investigator for about 6 years, a Shift Supervisor for 3 years, an investigator for a couple of years and as the Chief of Investigations for the rest.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Actually, I have a very good understanding of what defunding the police means.   I have several friends who are LEOs.   They get called out for all kinds of things that others are better qualified to address.   

The answer in my opinion is to not defund the police but, for city, county and state governments to take the needed money from the Social Service Entitlement money currently being wasted.

Rams

OMG, really,  The old "I have friends that are ........." response.  Wow !

I actually worked in law enforcement for 22 years and I can assure you that most folks I worked with, and if you look at current data, most police in general would agree with defunding police as it pertains to reallocating funds specifically for the handling of mental illness events.

I can't reconcile your statement that you have a very good understanding since you made the statement about defunding police linking it to a shooting event.  Obviously these type of events have absolutely nothing to do with the true concept of defunding police.

Exactly what role did you play in law enforcement? Were you an officer? Parking maid? Janitor at the county jail?

Over the 22 years I worked on Patrol for a year or 2, a Police Dog Handler for a couple of years, a Traffic Accident Investigator for about 6 years, a Shift Supervisor for 3 years, an investigator for a couple of years and as the Chief of Investigations for the rest.

Thanks !

[scooperhsd]

The major problem with "defunding the police" to send trained mental health care people on call is that often you need the LEOs there in addition to the Mental Health workers, to protect them .

[markymark640]

Your right, to some extent.

That's why, the programs that are working, have additional training for the 911 operators and the folks of them teams. The 911 folks are trained to ask all the right questions to determine who should get the call.  Some jurisdictions also notify a patrol about the incident in case it escalates.

Everything is done to ascertain whether or not a LEO is needed.

It works, it's well document.

I forget the true number, but I wrote it in a previous post. something like 80% of the incidents are ones that don't need a LEO.

 

[phideux]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

[Rams]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

My son is a paramedic/fireman, depending on where they are sent determines whether or not they actually wear their bullet proof vests they have.   

Rams

[markymark640]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

Good Question !

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

2.)  It also costs less to have a non-police vehicle transport them from temporary facilities to mental hospitals than it cost for mileage on a fully loaded police vehicle that are far more costly to equip and operate and must be retired at a specific point, thereby additional savings.

3.) The growing number of Police encounters with the homeless often end in citations or arrests. Of homeless people with mental health conditions, anywhere from 62.0% to 90% of them will be arrested, per one journal review of homelessness studies. They may end up in jail, not in treatment or housing, and thus begins the cycle of incarceration that doesn’t benefit either party. When these incidents are handled by other trained professionals, there is usually no arrests made.  Making the arrest takes hours of the LEOs time, apprehending, transporting, booking, etc into local jails.  These costs are eliminated.


Alternate resources are used to respond to a multitude of events such as substance addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide. These folks are highly trained to recognize if and when a LEO may be needed. These CAHOOTS-like programs maintain a very close relationship with local police.

By diverting crisis calls that can be more appropriately handled by a CAHOOTS team, the CAHOOTS program takes a substantial load off of Eugene Police Department (EPD) and saves taxpayers an average of $8.5 million every year, plus another $14 million in ambulance trips and elimination of ER costs.

I understand your question and concern, but after all is said and done, it actually does cost less and that has been proven in several communities that have implemented it.

I even understand your reluctance to the idea, but change is the one constant and more and more communities are implementing similar programs, and the COHOORTS program is expanding. It has a proven record of success.

[Rams]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

Good Question !

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

2.)  It also costs less to have a non-police vehicle transport them from temporary facilities to mental hospitals than it cost for mileage on a fully loaded police vehicle that are far more costly to equip and operate and must be retired at a specific point, thereby additional savings.

3.) The growing number of Police encounters with the homeless often end in citations or arrests. Of homeless people with mental health conditions, anywhere from 62.0% to 90% of them will be arrested, per one journal review of homelessness studies. They may end up in jail, not in treatment or housing, and thus begins the cycle of incarceration that doesn’t benefit either party. When these incidents are handled by other trained professionals, there is usually no arrests made.  Making the arrest takes hours of the LEOs time, apprehending, transporting, booking, etc into local jails.  These costs are eliminated.


Alternate resources are used to respond to a multitude of events such as substance addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide. These folks are highly trained to recognize if and when a LEO may be needed. These CAHOOTS-like programs maintain a very close relationship with local police.

By diverting crisis calls that can be more appropriately handled by a CAHOOTS team, the CAHOOTS program takes a substantial load off of Eugene Police Department (EPD) and saves taxpayers an average of $8.5 million every year, plus another $14 million in ambulance trips and elimination of ER costs.

I understand your question and concern, but after all is said and done, it actually does cost less and that has been proven in several communities that have implemented it.

I even understand your reluctance to the idea, but change is the one constant and more and more communities are implementing similar programs, and the COHOORTS program is expanding. It has a proven record of success.

Let's say you are 100% correct, what authority would these "specialists" have to take someone in for mental health or any of the other issues you're discussing if, those individuals don't want to go?
My bet is, LEOs will be involved 99% if time.   

Rams

[markymark640]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

Good Question !

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

2.)  It also costs less to have a non-police vehicle transport them from temporary facilities to mental hospitals than it cost for mileage on a fully loaded police vehicle that are far more costly to equip and operate and must be retired at a specific point, thereby additional savings.

3.) The growing number of Police encounters with the homeless often end in citations or arrests. Of homeless people with mental health conditions, anywhere from 62.0% to 90% of them will be arrested, per one journal review of homelessness studies. They may end up in jail, not in treatment or housing, and thus begins the cycle of incarceration that doesn’t benefit either party. When these incidents are handled by other trained professionals, there is usually no arrests made.  Making the arrest takes hours of the LEOs time, apprehending, transporting, booking, etc into local jails.  These costs are eliminated.


Alternate resources are used to respond to a multitude of events such as substance addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide. These folks are highly trained to recognize if and when a LEO may be needed. These CAHOOTS-like programs maintain a very close relationship with local police.

By diverting crisis calls that can be more appropriately handled by a CAHOOTS team, the CAHOOTS program takes a substantial load off of Eugene Police Department (EPD) and saves taxpayers an average of $8.5 million every year, plus another $14 million in ambulance trips and elimination of ER costs.

I understand your question and concern, but after all is said and done, it actually does cost less and that has been proven in several communities that have implemented it.

I even understand your reluctance to the idea, but change is the one constant and more and more communities are implementing similar programs, and the COHOORTS program is expanding. It has a proven record of success.

Let's say you are 100% correct, what authority would these "specialists" have to take someone in for mental health or any of the other issues you're discussing if, those individuals don't want to go?
My bet is, LEOs will be involved 99% if time.   

Rams

RAMS, I have to assume from your posts that you are against these type programs.

I'm not the expert on these programs and I can't possibly tell you everything there is to know and understand about such programs.

But I can tell you they have been in existence for YEARS and they are working !

My research indicates the  CAHOOTS staff do not carry weapons and have no authority to arrest or detain persons against their will.

I guess that would attest to the effectiveness of the program because over years and years of implementation less than 20% of the calls handled by these teams actually end up with the need for LEOs to respond.

And since LEOs are typically notified of each incident, they are able to respond quickly, if needed. ( about 20% of the time)

Wouldn't that tend to attest to a summary where 80% of the folks in addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide would go with these teams without incident ?

[Rams]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

Good Question !

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

2.)  It also costs less to have a non-police vehicle transport them from temporary facilities to mental hospitals than it cost for mileage on a fully loaded police vehicle that are far more costly to equip and operate and must be retired at a specific point, thereby additional savings.

3.) The growing number of Police encounters with the homeless often end in citations or arrests. Of homeless people with mental health conditions, anywhere from 62.0% to 90% of them will be arrested, per one journal review of homelessness studies. They may end up in jail, not in treatment or housing, and thus begins the cycle of incarceration that doesn’t benefit either party. When these incidents are handled by other trained professionals, there is usually no arrests made.  Making the arrest takes hours of the LEOs time, apprehending, transporting, booking, etc into local jails.  These costs are eliminated.


Alternate resources are used to respond to a multitude of events such as substance addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide. These folks are highly trained to recognize if and when a LEO may be needed. These CAHOOTS-like programs maintain a very close relationship with local police.

By diverting crisis calls that can be more appropriately handled by a CAHOOTS team, the CAHOOTS program takes a substantial load off of Eugene Police Department (EPD) and saves taxpayers an average of $8.5 million every year, plus another $14 million in ambulance trips and elimination of ER costs.

I understand your question and concern, but after all is said and done, it actually does cost less and that has been proven in several communities that have implemented it.

I even understand your reluctance to the idea, but change is the one constant and more and more communities are implementing similar programs, and the COHOORTS program is expanding. It has a proven record of success.

Let's say you are 100% correct, what authority would these "specialists" have to take someone in for mental health or any of the other issues you're discussing if, those individuals don't want to go?
My bet is, LEOs will be involved 99% if time.   

Rams

RAMS, I have to assume from your posts that you are against these type programs.

I'm not the expert on these programs and I can't possibly tell you everything there is to know and understand about such programs.

But I can tell you they have been in existence for YEARS and they are working !

My research indicates the  CAHOOTS staff do not carry weapons and have no authority to arrest or detain persons against their will.

I guess that would attest to the effectiveness of the program because over years and years of implementation less than 20% of the calls handled by these teams actually end up with the need for LEOs to respond.

And since LEOs are typically notified of each incident, they are able to respond quickly, if needed. ( about 20% of the time)

Wouldn't that tend to attest to a summary where 80% of the folks in addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide would go with these teams without incident ?

Sir,
You assume too much.   As to attesting to any summary, I'm not qualified to make that call nor, am I willing to research it.   I am simply not in favor of defunding LEOs and think any money needed to drive the programs you have suggested should come from the over inflated Social Entitlement programs.   I happen to be very supportive of the Thin Blue Line.   

Again, I will request you use my screen name as it appears on my signature line.   There is no reason to SHOUT my screen name, it won't get my attention any faster.

Rams

[markymark640]

Rams,

I understand your point on the funding issue, however you have raised other issues about these programs in past posts.

I understand your line of thinking about the funding. I'm just providing information about programs that have reallocated funds from police budgets and found it to work, and work well, while still providing the same level of police services to their community. It can, and does work. Period

I'm afraid that if you look at the budgets of major cities and municipalities, the money in the so called " Social Entitlement programs" is already over-extended to cloth, feed, treat the growing number of cases involving homeless people, drug addicts, and mental health issues in our cities today.

Several large cities that are requesting large increases in police budgets have had to, and are about to, reduce several social services programs to balance the budget. So there really isn't any money there

And there are many many other states that simply don't have the money in their budgets to fund these programs.

If the police get to handle 24,000 fewer calls, then one might suggest that they can now do their job with some amount less than the previous budget. Not as many LEOs would be needed to handle the lessened load. Not as many police cars would be needed as well. Not as much equipment need be purchase for those cars that aren't purchased

I am, and have always been, pro law enforcement. I'm not saying there is some type of one size fits all for these new programs. I'd be willing to speculate that there are some places this wouldn't work.

What I am saying is I don't believe there is the money in the Social Services portions of most cities to support anything like these new programs. And, there is proof in a number of municipalities, that money can be reallocated from police budgets and these programs can be successful while at the same time totally supporting the police and their budget needs.

[Rams]

Rams,

I understand your point on the funding issue, however you have raised other issues about these programs in past posts.

I understand your line of thinking about the funding. I'm just providing information about programs that have reallocated funds from police budgets and found it to work, and work well, while still providing the same level of police services to their community. It can, and does work. Period

I'm afraid that if you look at the budgets of major cities and municipalities, the money in the so called " Social Entitlement programs" is already over-extended to cloth, feed, treat the growing number of cases involving homeless people, drug addicts, and mental health issues in our cities today.

Several large cities that are requesting large increases in police budgets have had to, and are about to, reduce several social services programs to balance the budget. So there really isn't any money there

And there are many many other states that simply don't have the money in their budgets to fund these programs.

If the police get to handle 24,000 fewer calls, then one might suggest that they can now do their job with some amount less than the previous budget. Not as many LEOs would be needed to handle the lessened load. Not as many police cars would be needed as well. Not as much equipment need be purchase for those cars that aren't purchased

I am, and have always been, pro law enforcement. I'm not saying there is some type of one size fits all for these new programs. I'd be willing to speculate that there are some places this wouldn't work.

What I am saying is I don't believe there is the money in the Social Services portions of most cities to support anything like these new programs. And, there is proof in a number of municipalities, that money can be reallocated from police budgets and these programs can be successful while at the same time totally supporting the police and their budget needs.

We both may be correct to a certain extent.   But Social Entitlement Programs are abused to an extent, some (if not most) recipients should be put in jail.   I have first hand experience with offers to buy EBT cards for fifty cents on the dollar.   I have recipients in my own extended family that could work but don't because they've learned to work the system.   Reporting such abuses does little if any good.   This, I know for a fact.

Rams

[markymark640]

Again, no disagreement there.

I agree that something should be done about folks that might lie, cheat and steal so that can ride the system and get entitlements from Social Service programs that they are not really entitled to.

I now work in a hospital, as a Government civilian for the Army. I see fraud waste and abuse constantly. I've been involved in the investigation of cases of fraud involving high ranking military folks since becoming a Civil Servant.

I'm sure, just like the Army, there is plenty of money being stolen by fraud, from the other Services, from all kinds of State and Local municipalities, and I, like you, wish something more could be done about locating and punishing this.

It seems like there will always be folks that find ways to take advantage of the system and get a free ride.

I would certainly support taking the money from Social Service Entitlements as you say, if it was there and could be done without cutting vital services.

And I can also support taking it from the police budget where the police, local government officials come together and devise a plan that all parties agree to, without cutting vital services.

Just ask any police officer if they want to spend their days handling a call about a homeless person, a non violent mental health issue, a drug overdose, a possible suicide etc.

Let the police use their assets to handle law enforcement and let's find a workable solution to fund a system to handle these other issues.

[f6gal]

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

In Phoenix. AZ, the median salary of a licensed clinical social worker is $70,297.  The median salary for a police officer is $56,800 (salary.com).  Based on this, I think your claim of salary savings is flawed. 

[Gavin_Sons]

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

In Phoenix. AZ, the median salary of a licensed clinical social worker is $70,297.  The median salary for a police officer is $56,800 (salary.com).  Based on this, I think your claim of salary savings is flawed. 

Here a clinical social worker median salary is $69,250 vs police officer $56,000. I think you are right, very flawed. But hey, lets just say anything to prove we are right. If we say it enough it will become true.

[Gavin_Sons]

Augusta Georgia
Licensed clinical social worker - $66,593
Police Officer- $53,800

[Jess from VA]

Forgetting budget entirely (or mostly), common sense says a high percentage of disturbed, perturbed, pissed off, trouble making humans doing something that results in a police call need the responders to be able to physically subdue and/or disarm them, and possibly take them away in cuffs (for their own or other's safety).  Not something your average social worker is qualified, authorized or even likely inclined to do at all.  Add to that your cops already specifically trained in hostage (or other type) negotiators.  

Although there are likely individual occasions that a trained social worker might be the better responder than a policeman, not enough of them probably exist to warrant defunding police departments of millions of dollars of normal operating budget.  

This idea seems more like leftist-liberal political correctness, feel-good policy than actual boots on the ground protection of society policy.  It seems to me the better solution would be for existing PD's to hire a few social workers to augment their departments (and strictly under PD chain of command), than to justify taking 30 million from their annual operating budgets to create social (justice warrior) worker squads (who are toothless and and would likely call for police backup in a very high percentage of their call outs anyway).  BUT, if those few hires showed their actual worth in a few-year test program, more could always be hired over time.  Social workers (if any) should augment police budgets, not subtract from them.

But what we never need is police departments (or state and federal government) run by social workers.  That is insanity.  

Just walking into that huge urban section 8 housing complex is a life threatening experience. Try it yourself sometime (better take a big friend).

And make no mistake, BLM/Antifa and social justice warriors everywhere aren't really interested in social justice, they just want to dehorn, demoralize and de-legitimize the police every way they can to increase their own personal power.

[Rams]

Forgetting budget entirely (or mostly), common sense says a high percentage of disturbed, perturbed, pissed off, trouble making humans doing something that results in a police call need the responders to be able to physically subdue and/or disarm them, and possibly take them away in cuffs (for their own or other's safety).  Not something your average social worker is qualified, authorized or even likely inclined to do at all.  Add to that your cops already specifically trained in hostage (or other type) negotiators.  

Although there are likely individual occasions that a trained social worker might be the better responder than a policeman, not enough of them probably exist to warrant defunding police departments of millions of dollars of normal operating budget.  

This idea seems more like leftist-liberal political correctness, feel-good policy than actual boots on the ground protection of society policy.  It seems to me the better solution would be for existing PD's to hire a few social workers to augment their departments, than to justify taking 30 million from their annual operating budgets to create social (justice warrior) worker squads (who are toothless and and would likely call for police backup in a very high percentage of their call outs anyway).  BUT, if those few hires showed their actual worth in a few-year test program, more could always be hired over time.

But what we never need is police departments run by social workers.  That is insanity.  

Just walking into that huge urban section 8 housing complex is a life threatening experience. Try it yourself sometime (better take a big friend).

Sounds like good plan.   

Rams

[..]

Oops.

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/social-worker-msw-salary/atlanta-ga

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/police-patrol-officer-salary/atlanta-ga

Those steenkin facts.

[phideux]

Marky Mark, How is taking the money from the police and giving it to the "CAHOOTS" program saving the taxpayers money?? You are just taking the money and putting it someplace else. I'll bet if you add up all the associated cost, it actually costs the taxpayers more to start the CAHOOTS program up, and keep it running, of course with inflated bureaucratic and admin staff attached to it.
I have been a 911 Medic for alot of years. Rule # 1 is scene safety. I do not go into a psych call without the cops going in first and making sure it is safe, I'm not going in with a Social Worker, or whatever type of counselor just because someone on the phone with dispatch says it is safe.

Good Question !

1.) It saves money because it cost far less to have non LEO folks take the call than to have LEOs take the call ( I'm talking salary), thereby a saving tax payer money.

2.)  It also costs less to have a non-police vehicle transport them from temporary facilities to mental hospitals than it cost for mileage on a fully loaded police vehicle that are far more costly to equip and operate and must be retired at a specific point, thereby additional savings.

3.) The growing number of Police encounters with the homeless often end in citations or arrests. Of homeless people with mental health conditions, anywhere from 62.0% to 90% of them will be arrested, per one journal review of homelessness studies. They may end up in jail, not in treatment or housing, and thus begins the cycle of incarceration that doesn’t benefit either party. When these incidents are handled by other trained professionals, there is usually no arrests made.  Making the arrest takes hours of the LEOs time, apprehending, transporting, booking, etc into local jails.  These costs are eliminated.


Alternate resources are used to respond to a multitude of events such as substance addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide. These folks are highly trained to recognize if and when a LEO may be needed. These CAHOOTS-like programs maintain a very close relationship with local police.

By diverting crisis calls that can be more appropriately handled by a CAHOOTS team, the CAHOOTS program takes a substantial load off of Eugene Police Department (EPD) and saves taxpayers an average of $8.5 million every year, plus another $14 million in ambulance trips and elimination of ER costs.

I understand your question and concern, but after all is said and done, it actually does cost less and that has been proven in several communities that have implemented it.

I even understand your reluctance to the idea, but change is the one constant and more and more communities are implementing similar programs, and the COHOORTS program is expanding. It has a proven record of success.

1- No it doesn't. I get paid more than a cop, my partner gets paid more than a cop, I'm sure whatever Social Worker they try to throw out there will make more than a cop. My ambulance costs about the same as 5 cop cars, plus I have 100 grand worth of equipment and drugs on board. It costs alot more, send the cops in first. If they can transport the person without involving the ambulances and social workers, that will save money.

2- Wrong, see above. My ambulance costs about the same as 5 cop cars. It is also a truck, drives like a truck, rides like a truck, gets gas mileage like a truck, has higher operational costs, like a truck. Plus add in me and my partner, both making more than the cops. Plus the ambulance is now out of service on what is essentially a very expensive Uber ride.

3- The cops, at least the ones I work with, don't arrest alot of these people. They will transport them to the ER for evaluation.