Buzzy vibration after fork seals and new tire

[Dogleg]

Hi, new member here. Purchased a 2001 Valkyrie I/S this past summer. I have been working on it to make it mine, new rear tire, PO had a car tire, not my liking. Replaced the loud pipes with original pipes. Replaced all brake pads, rear pads were badly worn. And spent many, many hours trying to clean the wheels, finally settling for dull, but clean aluminum.
So latest headache, front fork seal failed on right fork, I ordered new seal kits for both forks and also a new front tire, PO had a Shinko which I replaced with a Metzler Ultra Marathon 888. I get the bike back from the Honda dealer, as soon as I rode for a few minutes I could feel a vibration in the handlebars that was NOT there before. Really high frequency buzz at all speeds from start to 110 kph. Took it back to the dealer, and asked their head technician to take it for s test drive. When he returned he said he could not feel anything, but I left it with them to check the front end. He said he was going to check the wheel bearings and the right front brake, as he felt it was working good. Did say they chamfered the pads to fit the wear pattern on the front discs?? No mention of checking bearings which I suspect they never did.
Anyway, have the bike now with the vibration still there, and on top of that now the steering feels weird.  I have been riding for over fifty years, many Gold wings and sport touring bikes, but this bike is now making me look like I have just started riding. Wobbly as hell when coming to a stop, making a sharp turn from  stop has the bike wanting to keep turning to the right?? Have to fight it straight.
Before I take the bike to a different repair shop I was hoping that the experience of this knowledgeable group could offer some advice. Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[Foozle]

Did you replace the front tire or did the dealer?  

There's a specific sequence for installation of the front wheel that involves the axle pinch bolts.  If not done properly, this might result in some binding due to misalignment.

I've never heard of new brake pads being chamfered to "fit" the rotors.  If the rotors abnormally worn, they should just be replaced.  It is possible the new pads are sticking on one side?  (You didn't mention if it has OEM or aftermarket rotors and pads; there have been some incompatibility issues mixing the two).

You sound like an experienced rider - so I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know.

Terry

[Mooskee]

Free download of Service manual here:

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/download.html

Page 13-2 has a troubleshooting chart for front wheel issues. I would start with what has changed since it was last working. ie. the installation of the tire, wheel, and brakes. You sound like you have plenty enough experience to realign the front wheel and troubleshoot the brakes.

The front wheel installation procedure starts on page 13-12. It is a a specific sequence to get everything aligned so brakes don't drag etc. It isn't difficult.

[Skinhead]

Where do you live?  If one of our more experienced member is close by, you may want to have them check it out and see what they think.

[Dogleg]

Honda dealer installed both the rear and front tires. Metzler 880 on rear, 888 on the front. I had to remove the rear tire and bring back to dealer to change out the straight tire vale for the correct 90 degree one I asked for. Lessons learned in how to remove and install a rear tire. LOL!
I will try to use a dial caliper and some kind of attachment to check the front tire for run out, on the bike.
I don't understand how replacing the fork seals and installing a new tire can cause this kind of vibration. You would figure that the Honda dealer would have technicians capable of correctly installing a tire.
Tomorrow I will put the bike on the lift, and take a look at the front tire install process. Thanks for the link to the service manual. I did download it. I also bought a Clymer manual from a previous owner of a Valkyrie, who no longer rides.
I live in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada, so I doubt if any members are that close.
Thanks all for your suggestions, if I am unable to troubleshoot this issue I will bring the bike to an independent workshop who has, in the past, worked on this bike, in fact they replaced the timing belts last year.
Best regards, sorry to be long winded.

[Mooskee]

Don't worry about being long winded. The tech forum is here to help riders with tech problems.

There is another variable in the equation. The REAR wheel was removed and replaced.

Check the manual pages 14-7,8,9 for rear wheel installation. Make sure the thrust washer is installed.
Follow the sequence on 14-9 for installing tightening the Axil nut and the final gear case mounting bolts.

It is possible to introduce issues in the final drive by doing the install in the wrong sequence.

You will get this figured out. A lot of us, maybe MOST of us have learned to do our own maintenance. There is a lot of experience to tap here.

The bikes are 20+ years old, and Honda dealer techs may not be your best bet for turning wrenches on your bike. Most of what is needed maintenance wise is really not that complicated. It can be unforgiving of mistakes. With a bit of study and a good set of instructions, you can get it done. If you are not the mechanic type, there is likely someone within shouting distance who is good at it and willing to help.

Some of these guys are likely to want a good excuse to ride to Newfoundland and help a fellow rider!

[Chrisj CMA]

Look at the head of the front axle on the clutch side. If it is proud of the fork even by a little then the lower fork is improperly positioned on the axle and the disk rivets could be rubbing on the caliper

[Dogleg]

Thanks for the replies. This vibration only started after the fork seals and tire change. Before that the Valkyrie was as smooth a glass. Only when I started to see the oil on the garage floor and checked the right fork did i realize the seal was leaking. Seeing how they were going to have to remove the tire, and disassemble the forks was the driving factor to change the tire.
I am going to put the bike on the lift today, check for run out on the tire, if that is OK, then I will start by checking the axle and pinch bolts, redo the install by loosening everything, then re-tighten all with the correct sequence. It has to be something that resulted form working on the front end, as all was good prior.
I will report back with mu findings. Thanks again.

[Jess from VA]

While on the lift, spin that new tire and look for irregularities.  It happens.

[RonW]

The dealer might not have installed the rear wheel correctly too. There's a proper sequence too and a step that's quite critical on the valk.

Pics of the reference mark on the front axle. Probably for the factory workers.

[Dogleg]

Put the bike on the lift. Didn't take very long to see that the brake discs are either warped or the wheel is warped.  This is new, as I had the bike on the lift previously and was cleaning and polishing wheels until the cows came home, with NO signs of a grabbing when spinning the tires to polish.
The dealer service guy asked me if I had installed new brake pads, as they had to "chamfer" the pads to get a good seat!!?1?
 When the technician took the bike for a test run, he came back and said the right brake was not working well. Understandable, as that was the fork leg with the leaking seal, so you think they would have looked at the brake pads for contamination from fork oil. I have had it with these jokers.
I will pull the brake calipers today and see what the hell the Honda dealer has done to the bike. After the long weekend I will call the independent shop and ask them to look at the front end.
My other line of thought is to sell it just like it is, take my losses, and move on. And trust me those losses will be considerable after the work I have had done to this Valkyrie since I bought it in May.

[Foozle]

I think the leaky fork seal is a separate issue.  Nonetheless, if it's leaking immediately after being replaced by the dealer, this should be made right (unless they've completely exhausted your trust/patience). 

If you're able, remove the entire front tire/wheel - check the rotors and calipers - and reinstall using the correct procedure (sequence).  As Jeff mentioned, make sure the forks are properly aligned to the axle.  The axle and pinch bolts each have specific torque specs.

I know it's a PITA, but this alone should NOT be an impetus to dump a bike that's in otherwise decent shape (IMHO).  Of course, if it's merely the tip of the iceberg . . . . . . . .

Please keep us updated.  I'm curious to learn what's going on.

Terry

[The emperor has no clothes]

I’ve never heard of “chamfering” brake pads to make them fit. I think the issue is they likely didn’t put things back together properly.

[gordonv]

We haven't heard back from you yet.

As mentioned, Jeff suggested looking at that front axle. Maybe it wasn't clearly stated, if that axle isn't seated right, then the front wheel is out of alignement. That means the disk/caliper/etc, aren't aligned, rub, and does all kinds of things. Like the items you are complaining about.

Since May you've just started asking question on your new to you bike? I hope you've been searching/reading what's been posted.

One of the most common statements made, is don't go to a dealer. It's rare to find one that know our bikes. So the best thing is to know it yourself, or find a mechanic who does.

Have you gotten the Service Manual yet? You can find a PDF copy at http://valkyrienorway.com/download.html  I also have a hard copy that I found at a reasonable price, $35.

For local help, it great to add you location to your profile, someone may be close by and be able to help out.

Good luck

[Dogleg]

Thanks to RonW I did pull the front end apart. I had to clean and polish the front axle, especially the larger left end. the mechanic must have used a set of pliers to pull it out, so there were a couple of tool marks that needed to be cleaned.
 I understand now what the service guy was talking about when he said they chamfered the pads. My discs appear top be original to the bike, and they have a tiny edge on the outer and inner circumference, the pads were riding on that edge, as I just put new pads all around. They just shaved off a little bit in the outer and inner edge of the pads so they seat better on the discs. Can't say I find a whole lot of difference though.
Anyway, put the wheel back on, making sure to see the indented line inside of the left fork, then followed all the sequence as per the service manual. No more tight spot when rotating the tire, so that is solved. Cleaned up around the brake discs and inside the forks while I was there, just because!!
Went for a little ride, about 130 mile little ride, and that bloody vibration is STILL there. Mostly felt at 35 to 40 mph, just a buzz in the hand grips that was not there before the tire change.
Was thinking what else can it be. So I made an appointment for September 27 to have the independent service shop go over the bike. These guys are the BMW dealer, but their service guys are top notch, and they did the timing belts, all the fluids last year on the Valkyrie for the PO.
Fingers crossed, hurricane  Larry hits shore tonight in my little town, fast mover, so hoping not too much damage.
Again gents, thanks for all the advise, i will post when the bike is back from the shop.

[GWS]

Just a thought, but was the new tire balanced properly? I put new tires on my Valk this year (Avon Cobras) and I was surprised at how much weight I needed to add to one of the new tires.

[Foozle]

Thanks to RonW I did pull the front end apart. I had to clean and polish the front axle, especially the larger left end. the mechanic must have used a set of pliers to pull it out, so there were a couple of tool marks that needed to be cleaned.
 I understand now what the service guy was talking about when he said they chamfered the pads. My discs appear top be original to the bike, and they have a tiny edge on the outer and inner circumference, the pads were riding on that edge, as I just put new pads all around. They just shaved off a little bit in the outer and inner edge of the pads so they seat better on the discs. Can't say I find a whole lot of difference though.
Anyway, put the wheel back on, making sure to see the indented line inside of the left fork, then followed all the sequence as per the service manual. No more tight spot when rotating the tire, so that is solved. Cleaned up around the brake discs and inside the forks while I was there, just because!!
Went for a little ride, about 130 mile little ride, and that bloody vibration is STILL there. Mostly felt at 35 to 40 mph, just a buzz in the hand grips that was not there before the tire change.
Was thinking what else can it be. So I made an appointment for September 27 to have the independent service shop go over the bike. These guys are the BMW dealer, but their service guys are top notch, and they did the timing belts, all the fluids last year on the Valkyrie for the PO.
Fingers crossed, hurricane  Larry hits shore tonight in my little town, fast mover, so hoping not too much damage.
Again gents, thanks for all the advise, i will post when the bike is back from the shop.

Could it be the infamous "buzz bolt" simply needs lubing and tightening?

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,26883.0.html

I have no idea why this would have been tampered with during the maintenance you mention, but it's an easy fix (potentially) that COULD result in a buzzing sensation at certain RPMs.

Just trying to be thorough.

Terry

[Chrisj CMA]

The buzz bolt is worth checking. 14mm and a long breaker bar tighten that baby down. The way it could have come into play is that the mechanic probably didn’t lift the whole bike, just the front end. This is fine but if that bolt was a tad lose the stress of lifting may have changed it enough to start buzzing.

[Jess from VA]

The buzz bolt is misnamed because it's not the bolt but the long sleeve the bolt travels through inside the frame members that buzzes/rattles.  And cranking down on the nut hard may or may not actually tighten enough to capture the sleeve tight inside the frame members to stop it from buzzing.  It took me a few attempts, and finally I cranked/jerked hard enough on that tool steel bolt/nut to make it squeal, and I think I actually bent the frame members (or one side) in a little to really capture that sleeve.  (It's harder to get to on an interstate with the pods up there.)  Some have pulled out the bolt and spooged a bunch of RTV up inside the sleeve to quiet it down.  And you cannot get tools (and hands) on both the bolt and nut on both sides by yourself, but you don't need to since the bolt won't turn while cranking the nut.

That thing drove me crazy.  But it wasn't a felt vibration (for me), it was noise.

It's not where the finger is pointing, it's the long bolt and sleeve and nut above his first knuckle (you crank on).


Or it may just be your new tire.  Balanced or not.  

[JimC]

I had a tire that was slightly out of round.
Easy too find, jack the bike and hold a pencil or other straight object on the tip of front fender, slightly lower until it touches the tire while it is rotating.
It will be obvious if that is was is causing it.

Jim

[The emperor has no clothes]

I had a vibration once that I couldn’t figure out. Replaced u-joint, rebalanced both tires, etc. It turned out to be the Shinko front tire. I suppose even Avon’s can be bad.

[Jess from VA]

Historically, Avons were a worst offender in defective tires. (delaminations, cupping)

I guess not anymore, but that's why I don't run them.

[Chrisj CMA]

How’s it going with the vibration?  Two things...if they installed organic pads vs OEM they tend to buzz a little. Also, if there is that big a lip on the rotors they are probably done. New rotors may improve things.

[Dogleg]

Finally, the weather turned nice enough for a test ride. Nothing but rain and cold lately. So I got the IS back from the shop, front tire was NOT balanced correctly, and the front discs were beyond specs.
That was why the Honda shop chamfered the edges of the pads, so they would clear the lip on the discs.
New discs on the front, the rear disc was fine. So, almost a $1000 CDN later, the bloody vibration is STILL THERE!!!! You can really feel it at about 30 to 40 mph, and when slowing down to a stop, with the clutch pulled in it is still there. The sensation is in the hand grips, no noise, well none that you can hear above the exhausts anyway. And speaking of that, after a couple of hours ride the exhaust sound is really loud, maybe from the pipes being hot.
Riding season is about over now, but lots of bikes out yesterday, sunny and 15 deg. C. A long cold winter ahead, so with the bike in my garage, any suggestions for things that I can work on would be great.
I started to feel this vibration after a tire change and work on the fork seals, is it the tire itself? Is it possible that the problem may actually be from the rear end, drive shaft, rear tire??
I bought this bike in May of this year, at 75 years old was going to give up riding, but thiatis easier said then done.
Been spending like crazy fixing the IS back to what I think the bike should be, come next spring I may just cut my losses and sell the machine and call it quits. We will see. Thanks for all your suggestions and listening to my complaints.

[Tazman11]

I avoid taking my bikes/trike to any STEALERSHIP for work. Good mechanics are hard to find anywhere, especially with what dealer pay. Plus the labor costs make having anything done expensive. Get a service manual (ebay has them for around $35 US), watch YouTube videos, and read what the experts here have to say. I also recommend a lift especially if you are a seasoned rider (over 55.) I do my own work and even change my own tires. Sometimes I learn from my mistakes but always get it right in the end.

Balance. Because I change my own tires, I started using Balance Beads to balance my tires. Great stuff and perfect every time. As the tires wear, balance stays perfect. Since you are experiencing a vibration at a specific speed/rpm, tire balance might be haunting you. I have the same tires as you and with the balance beads, there is no vibration at all.

[longrider]

Since the riding season is over it is a good time to go back over a few things.  First, where do you live?.  Is there any other Valk owners near by to swap and have another opinion.  I have not run the 880 but it very well may be the tire and you are sensitive to any new feeling that many others just ignore.  I had a similar feeling with the Avons I have been using for over 15 years.  After installing a new set all would be well.  Then after maybe 5- 10,000 km I would feel a vibration in the corners and that vibration would get worse and worse as time went on.  The rear tire was cupping at the edges so bad it seemed distracting but I leanrned I could just ignore it as I realized nothing was wrong.  Avon has since changed the design slightly to eliminate the problem.

As others have said,  most dealers have no mechanics that know these m/c at all.  Best to gather info from this board and do repairs yourself if you can and you will be good to go.