Went to buy a Toyota...

[Savago]

My kid went back to the university and since she just got her driver license, I decided to hand over to her my old car, a small hatch back (i.e. 2012 Hyundai Veloster).

That prompted me to start looking for a new car. I always wanted to buy a Toyota, either a truck (like the Tundra) or a SUV (like the 4Runner).

My experience with the 2 dealerships:
a) Tundra: test drove the 1794 model. Brakes were squishy and the steering felt vague, at best. The MSRP is 49K, but they were asking 55K for it!

On top of the abusive price, Toyota has already announced an upcoming 22 model that will be a new generation upgrade on what is an aging platform.

b) 4Runner TRD some-something model: breaks felt good, steering firm and it had all the off-road goodies (crawl mode, stick for engaging 4x4 and 4x4Low, etc). The MSRP was something around 43K but they were asking 56K (!!!) for it. Hard pass.

All Toyota dealerships in my neck of the woods are charging awful markups on top of the MSRP. And it seems that Toyota announced a decrease of around 40% in its production.

I gave up on Toyota and almost considered a Wrangler... until a read on how poor is the Fiat-Chrysler quality control.

The Ford Bronco looks pretty cool, but it was a pass due:
a) First batch generally has issues.
b) Huge demand leads to inflated prices.

When I was almost giving up, I decided to have a look on what Subaru has to offer. Main points:
a) Japanese brand, made in the USA.
b) Its AWD system has being perfected in the last 20-30 years.
c) It features a cool boxer engine (Yep, I love boxer engines on my bikes, why not on my car?).
d) Great safety features (RAB, smart cruise control, emergency breaking, etc).
e) The Outback drives more like a car, not like a SUV or a truck (maybe because it is technically a station wagon).

And the best of all: the 3 dealerships I've visited were not charging markups on top of the MSRP and offered 0% APR for 21 models and 1.9% for 22 models.

There is a short video review of the 21 model here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3FhOgMG8xk

Long story short: I drove back home a 2022 Subaru Outback Limited XT with the new 2.4L turbo-charged 4 cylinders boxer engine.

Only logged 800 miles on it, but so far I'm really enjoying the safety features (it actually helped to avoid a collision on my way to SF) and creature comforts (e.g. dual zone AC, big multimedia display with support for Apple Carplay, leather seats, etc).

The gas mileage is ok-ish (I'm getting 26mpg, but the engine is still in the break-in stage).

I bought with the idea of in 2 or 3 years (when hopefully things go back to normal) to trade it for a 4Runner, but who knows? Maybe in 3 years from now I may decide just to keep it.
 

[Savago]

For people considering a Wrangler:
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-jeep-wrangler-is-one-of-the-most-unreliable-cars-of-2020/

[Savago]

And here is how the Outback 2020 Touring (1 trim level above the Limited XT) behaves in the snow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe-jQqxbkVk

[Tundra]

Subaru has come a long way, they make a nice vehicle. Luxury ammenities, car like ride and capable all weather/off road. I was recently looking as I own my 4Runner outright and they will give me more than I paid two years ago on trade.  no brainer. My wife loves it and that was that.
   I hate it, I call it the "school bus" I've had 4Runners for 30 years and Tundra's since they were born. This is the worst, heaviest, underpowered, bad handling, poor suspension, under braking 4Runner ever produced. It looks pretty and all those issues can easily be fixed by throwing "TRD"  money at it. My Toyota loyalty is at it's end. Congratulations on your wise purchase

Another link clearly showing the Subaru's capabilities
https://youtu.be/dE2maJuHaBY

[Robert]

Subaru has come a long way, they make a nice vehicle. I was recently looking as I own my 4Runner outright and they will give me more than I paid two years ago on trade.  no brainer. My wife loves it and that was that.
   I hate it, I call it the "school bus" I've had 4Runners for 30 years and Tundra's since they were born. This is the worst, heaviest, underpowered, bad handling, poor suspension, under braking 4Runner ever produced. It looks pretty and all those issues can easily be fixed by throwing "TRD"  money at it. My Toyota loyalty is at it's end. Congratulations on your wise purchase

  agreed

[Patrick]

I've owned 3 Toyotas, worst vehicles I've ever owned. When I was working I had to deal with car companies, worst was Toyota. Their factory reps are as bad bad as their product. Thats just my opinion.

Land Cruiser. you could listen to that thing rust
Highlander. Brake rotors every 2 years, engine at 60K
Tundra. Control arm bushings at 18K, 3 engines in 30,000 mikes.

As far as the engines are concerned. Mobil 1 every 4K.

[AwesomeDad]

We’ve had several vehicles over the years, I was found of my jeep  liberty with the CRD, had a wrangler a couple Toyota’s, and now a sequoia (6 kids) and 2 VW passats one manual diesel. As retirement looms on the horizon my lifelong dream of a truck and camper may not come to bear due to astronomical prices of trucks 80K and not a dually what are they thinking smh… And let’s not forget the camper isn’t much cheaper.

JJ

[f6john]

My son bought a Subbie for his wife and they have been quite satisfied with it as a commuter around Lexington Ky. I’m somewhat surprised at the Toyota reviews, but I guess the best of companies get off track. Our 2015 Camary Hybrid has been excellent in the first 68,000 miles even though it was totaled at 32,000 miles and rebuilt by my wife’s brother.

Almost nobody ever brings up Nissan when it comes to trucks. I bought my 2005 Titan 4x4 with 8,000 miles on the odometer. 193,000 miles later, the motor has been rock solid, body and frame have zero rust issues and it still does everything I need it to do. Brakes were an issue until I up graded to 07-08 Armada rotors and calipers and no issues since. Lots of improvements in the last 16 years in truck offerings but I may remain stuck in the past with my Titan as the prices seem totally ridiculous to me. All the while dealers seem to find ample buyers for $50-80,000 trucks. I bought my first home in 1972 for $10,000 and my first new car in 1975 for about $5,000 so the last 20 years of price increases have been hard for me to swallow.

[Jess Tolbirt]

I am surprised about all the Toyota problems here.
I have had 5, 4 tacomas and one 4 runner. that 4 runner was the best vehicle I have ever had dealings with. I loved it. but bought a toy hauler and needed a V-8 so bought a Ram. I like the Ram too. and never had an issue with the tacos either.

Oyea i was looking at a KIA Carnival at a msrp of about 45,000. then there was this AMV thing of 14,000.
I asked what AMV meant and he said Adjusted Market Value, I said c-ya

[Patrick]

Prices ?  Prices are nuts today. Dealers can't seem to get anything and what they do get are sold before they hit the lot. And most are adding a couple grand to the sticker, AND, are getting it.

I just looked for/at Honda Odessy  and Chrysler Pacifica. Each dealer had one and they were sold before they got them. I wouldn't have bought either.

When it comes to Toyota, it obvious I hate them. I'm still around the car shops a lot. They are reliable  mostly except for the engines. If you get a good one then they're ok. A good friend keeps raving how good his Camry is, he doesn't even know how to open hood. He does it just to bug me. He's been driving it lately until the dash lights start flashing and goes to the garage he uses [ good garage] , they add a couple quarts and off he goes.  He's starting to complain about that and I just smile at him.
That seems to be the same for KIA and Hyundai.

As far as trucks, I've become a Ram Fan. The 2 I've had/have have been bulletproof. I was brought up in Studebaker and Ford shop.

[Rams]

Prices ?  Prices are nuts today.

As far as trucks, I've become a Ram Fan. The 2 I've had/have have been bulletproof.

Prices aren't the only issue, my experience with dealer shops hasn't been all that positive.   The vehicles currently being produced are way more complicated than need to be IMO.   That thanks to the EPA.   

I'm also a Ram fan.   Mine are all Cummins powered diesels.   Have put close to half a million miles on three of them, working on my fourth one now.   I truly expect this one to last the rest of my natural life.   This assumes I'm not involved in a major accident.   
My wife was a Toyota fan until I talked her into trying out a Honda Ridgeline.   She absolutely loves it.
My daughter was a Subby fan.   While the transmission lasts, of the three she has owned, all three ended up needing new transmissions.  Two were under warranty, one wasn't.   Now, she won't even consider a Subbie.   The only thing about Sabaru I can knock is their CVT transmissions.   I'm not a fan of them but, there seems to be a lot of happy customers out there so.................

Rams

[scooperhsd]

I'm not a fan of ANY CVT, I don't care what brand.

[Patrick]

Prices ?  Prices are nuts today.

As far as trucks, I've become a Ram Fan. The 2 I've had/have have been bulletproof.

Prices aren't the only issue, my experience with dealer shops hasn't been all that positive.   The vehicles currently being produced are way more complicated than need to be IMO.   That thanks to the EPA.   

I'm also a Ram fan.   Mine are all Cummins powered diesels.   Have put close to half a million miles on three of them, working on my fourth one now.   I truly expect this one to last the rest of my natural life.   This assumes I'm not involved in a major accident.   
My wife was a Toyota fan until I talked her into trying out a Honda Ridgeline.   She absolutely loves it.
My daughter was a Subby fan.   While the transmission lasts, of the three she has owned, all three ended up needing new transmissions.  Two were under warranty, one wasn't.   Now, she won't even consider a Subbie.   The only thing about Sabaru I can knock is their CVT transmissions.   I'm not a fan of them but, there seems to be a lot of happy customers out there so.................

Rams

Natural life ??


I'm not a fan of CVTs either.  Thats part of why I went to college. When young and idealistic I wondered why a 'shiftless' auto hadn't been made yet so I was going to do it. Started working on auto transmitters in the late 50s. By the early 70s I changed my mind about trying such a thing. About 20 yrs ago a local company started trying to make them and they passed the military tests. When I found that out I invested in the company, and, promptly lost my shirt. Actually shirt, pants underwear and about everything else all in short order.

[Savago]

@Tundra: really good report. I still think the 4Runner is a tank, but only performs properly in the TRD upper-trim level (but then costs an arm and leg).

@Patrick: I'm really surprised to learn about the reliability issues you experienced with Toyota. I guess they are indeed slipping in quality.

@AwesomeDad: It is really weird what is happening to truck prices. My guess is that more and more people are buying them just as a status symbol to park in their driveways, not for hard work. I mean, 80K is luxury/exotic car prices.

@f6john: I heard some bad stories about Nissan x rust (unsure if that is still an issue). Man... a house costing 10k (that would be around 70K in today's dollars)? Good times.
:-)

@Jess: if KIA dealerships are playing funny games, have you considered a Subaru? One of the salesman in dealership said to me that the company doesn't allow adding markups *or* providing big discounts. Unsure if that is a Cali only thing or if that is the national policy.

@Rams & @scooperhd: I was a little weary about the CVT, as it seems that all makers had issues with it. But it seems that Subaru is on its 3rd iteration of their CVT and hopefully worked out the bugs off it in the 6th generation Outback (2020 onwards). I guess time will tell.

Concerning the engine: it seems that their 6 cylinders wasn't good, head gaskets would go bad (I guess only mother Honda knows how to build a bullet proof flat 6). But apparently their 4 cylinders boxer has a good name for being reliable, even though not producing much power.

The new 2.4L turbo charged engine (FA24) seems to be an overbuilt version of their 2.0L engine but designed to withstand putting out up to 400 HP, but configured for 260HP for the Outback (i.e. under stressed engines generally lasts a long time):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd5qE5m-U7s

A little bit of history on Subaru and early aviation: did you know that Subaru's founder got his airplane pilot license in the USA and was a heavy critic against the decision of the Imperial Japanese government to attack the USA?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuCrlEk5Z44

[Savago]

At this point in the video, Scotty explains the safety advantages of a boxer engine (i.e. lower center of gravity, less vibration, power train has the tendency to move down instead of inside the cabin in case of a front collision):
https://youtu.be/FuCrlEk5Z44?t=1305

[Savago]

Mandatory photo of the car:

[Jess from VA]

Nice car.   

But your lawn needs mowed.   

[Savago]

Nice car.   

But your lawn needs mowed.   

Agreed! I skipped that week since I was busy car buying.
 

[Jess from VA]

Nice car.   

But your lawn needs mowed.   

Agreed! I skipped that week since I was busy car buying.
 

I was just pulling your leg. 

[cookiedough]

also went to buy a new 2021 tundra before Yota messes things up end of 2021 revamping twin turbo V6 and all new inside and out for 2022 model year.    Dealer LOW balled me on trade in like 5 grand did NOT care one bit since NONE to be had and the one coming in I want in about 3 more days will be on lot is full MSRP NO discount, but NO markup OVER msrp either.  So,  dealer thinks the heck with the customers I am going to command ANY price on trade in and new truck sale price.  NO wheelin and dealin at all is their way or hwy.  I choose the hwy. since not loosing out 5K in trade in and another 2 grand between dealer invoice and full msrp pricing. 

Market conditions could be different in your area, but around here the Tundra is not a very super great seller but the resale (although not now at that stealer) is one of the best and so is the reliability despite what some say. 

I am almost given up on getting a 2021 tundra since NONE on the lot and all the orders coming in are usually pre-sold and if not,  like me get there and the stealer tries screwing with you making it their way or hwy.   

[Rams]

Mandatory photo of the car:

That photo does two things, first that the yard does need a trim and secondly, ya can't hide money.  Nice home.   

Rams

[Patrick]

I think all companies make both good and bad stuff. Its a crap shoot, you can get a 'lemon' or a good one.
I always found it amazing the stuff that happens. We once sold a new car and the customer came back with rattle complaint. OK, no big deal right. Only under hard acceleration or braking could you get it to rattle. And it traveled. A pop/soda bottle was welded inside the frame rail halves.  That bottle travelled the length of the frame  so I got the bottle to a frame hole and hit it with a punch. Took out as many pieces as I could. Ended up with a happy customer.
Another was a new car that wouldn't run while on the transporter. We pulled it off and took a look at it. Every dash connector was spot welded to the dash frame. That was a royal PITA to fix. Yet, they got that thing on the top rack of the transporter and sent it off !

[MarkT]

Three years ago my Exploder puked (burning coolant) and my mechanic said it wasn't worth fixing.  (Turns out HE didn't want to fix an actual problem - I have another mechanic now who did fix it well and it was cherry for it's age - only 130k, a '97, very clean, new Michelins and a stick - sold it to a BMW fan at a good price; you can't find 5-spd XLT's).  









I have wanted a 4Runner for a long time but couldn't justify it while the Ford ran.  Now I could.
Looking on Craig's list I found my 4Runner Limited at a great price inside an hour.
Ran down there, took it for a drive, negotiated a bit and left with the truck.  2015, 56K, very clean - looks new, one owner, garage kept, full maintenance records all by the dealer.  Has all the toys, leather seats - the next level of trim is a Lexus.  $27k; Consumer Reports said I paid $4k below it's value.  Considering it's condition & history I think it's more than that.  Two other guys showed up while I was there, wanting it - but the seller kept his word to me - lucked out on the timing.  I think they were legit buyers; not a sales scam.  4.0L V6, 275hp - not a lot but compare that to the 160hp 4.0L Exploder. And does that getting 1 more mpg.  Kiichiro Toyoda's (yeah they edited the name; the word "Toyoda" in Japanese means "fertile rice paddies") mission statement back in the day embraced building in quality and reliability as job one.  And it shows - in Consumer Reports stats, and resale value.  I'm not crazy about the handling - I've had others that are better.  But it's a TOYOTA.  I expect with good care this is my last SUV.

[cookiedough]

nice black toyoda SUV you got there MarkT,  new one now is 50K so you got that at half price of new, give or take.

I love how the price of 1-2 year old tundras at dealers lots are asking about 1 grand MORE than new full msrp pricing on a new 2021 model.   Not saying they will get it, but with NONE on dealers' lots to pick from new and only 1-2 used tundras at most on lots, they just might?

still trying to find a new 2021 tundra but all dealers are asking everyone to pay full msrp which is about a 2K markup over their dealer cost plus NO incentives or rebates since NONE around.  Actually got a call today from a Milwaukee dealer stating they have ONLY ONE left in SR5 trim NONTRD coming in October,  but is in black, not my cup of tea but at this moment I cannot be too fussy on colors since is equipped the way I want it.  We talked over the phone me wanting 32k trade in on my 2017 tundra with 51K miles, them stating 31K sight unseen, so not that far off.  Judging by the asking price on lots similar tundra as mine used asking 38K, they should sell for 36K or so, still a 4K profit but needs new brakes and tires are mediocre I would drive them 1.5 more  years but are 1/2 gone and most want NEW tires so still a near 3K profit for dealer is enough to give them plus 2K profit on a new one.  More than 5K profit per trade in is greedy _astards if  you ask me. 

[jdp]

Every Toyota I have ever owned I bought used and has gone over 300,000 miles with no problems, 3 Corollas 1 4 runner 2 Tacoma’s 1 tundra, different strokes for different folks

[cookiedough]

Every Toyota I have ever owned I bought used and has gone over 300,000 miles with no problems, 3 Corollas 1 4 runner 2 Tacoma’s 1 tundra, different strokes for different folks

Yah, agree majority rules that more than likely yoda's will go 300K miles but always a bad apple in the bunch.  I once bought new a 2007 toyota RAV4 V6 AWD and thought keep it forever.  At 1.5 years and only around 26K miles the head gaskets leaking antifreeze and other issues so traded it in before 3/36K warranty was up got rid of it.  Plus, I hated the cruise control if using on even slight hills going up it would literally NO JOKE FLOOR the pedal to the ground and rev to redline every single time as soon as 1-2 mph less than set mph on cruise.  All other vehicles I have ever owned would downshift /rev higher in increments NOT flooring engine ASAP to near redline.   Dealer said that is normal,  I think not.

Used car market is HOT right now since not many new on lots see expecting to pay 2-3K more than what the used vehicle is worth IMO past few months and more.

[MarkT]

Yeah the cruise behaves like that - downshifts twice and revs high - even if you select manual shift on the shifter.  Don't care for it, I'm pretty sure they could fix that with a firmware upgrade but apparently the powers that be think the priority is maintain the speed at all costs.  So I don't use the cruise on hilly roads.  Our Mazda CX5 has a much better behaved cruise.

[Patrick]

I also forgot to mention the rotten frame. Tundra frames were junk and they replaced a bazillion of them.  But, they wouldn't replace mine. Must be mine was one of the first before they realized they had a real problem on their hands. I got rid of that POS before all the dealers had piles of rotten old frames stacked up out back. So, 3 engine in 33K miles, control bushings at 18K miles [ Toyota came out with a redesigned bushing but wouldn't warranty mine] [ Pat the parts mgr left the bag with the new bushings on the counter and pushed it towards me and said he was leaving for lunch and gave me a wink so I went home and replaced them and gave him the old ones] [ It went thru 22 front tires in those 18K miles] [ never had issue after replacement] , and the rotten frame [ the truck spent its winters in Florida].

The Highlander was running on 3 of its 6 cylinders at 60K and they refused any warranty. And it would rot the brake rotors every 2 years.

Again these engines had Mobil 1 every 4K.

Think I'll ever buy another one ?

[cookiedough]

I also forgot to mention the rotten frame. Tundra frames were junk and they replaced a bazillion of them.  But, they wouldn't replace mine. Must be mine was one of the first before they realized they had a real problem on their hands. I got rid of that POS before all the dealers had piles of rotten old frames stacked up out back. So, 3 engine in 33K miles, control bushings at 18K miles [ Toyota came out with a redesigned bushing but wouldn't warranty mine] [ Pat the parts mgr left the bag with the new bushings on the counter and pushed it towards me and said he was leaving for lunch and gave me a wink so I went home and replaced them and gave him the old ones] [ It went thru 22 front tires in those 18K miles] [ never had issue after replacement] , and the rotten frame [ the truck spent its winters in Florida].

The Highlander was running on 3 of its 6 cylinders at 60K and they refused any warranty. And it would rot the brake rotors every 2 years.

Again these engines had Mobil 1 every 4K.

Think I'll ever buy another one ?

you got one of those bad apples in the bunch.  But yah,  the toyota trucks both tundras and tacos did have major rust issues going on well before they should have that is well documented. 

[cookiedough]

Yeah the cruise behaves like that - downshifts twice and revs high - even if you select manual shift on the shifter.  Don't care for it, I'm pretty sure they could fix that with a firmware upgrade but apparently the powers that be think the priority is maintain the speed at all costs.  So I don't use the cruise on hilly roads.  Our Mazda CX5 has a much better behaved cruise.

have driven GM products,  toyota and hyundai all my life and the 2007 RAV4 V6 AWD was the ONLY ONE EVER to literally maintain cruise control speed at all costs to the point of redlining the engine on that thing, was scary dangerous.

[MarkT]

I installed a Rostra electronic cruise on Jade.  It's made for cars.  Of course it doesn't do anything with a transmission, just the throttle.  It also doesn't respond as fast.  But I bet it would be better than the aggressive Toyota cruise, if I cared enough to install it.

[cookiedough]

well almost wasted 7 hours today total near 2 hours at stealer negotiating my trade in tundra.  1st offer 30300 I laughed, 2nd one 31K I still said no demanded 32K no less.  They said impossible to do 32K but then I got a thinking they said will have to replace rotors/pads their shop charge sales 800 so hey 31.2K+800 is my 32K so offered to do my own rotors/pads myself cost me 400 or so.  They agreed so basically only out 400 or so off my 32K trade in wanted.  Hey, I ONLY paid 38K for it over 4 years ago now and 52K miles later not too shabby out 6K depreciation in 4 years right?

Now to find the cheapest rotors/pads on rockauto.com and either do it myself or pay a shop 2 hours labor around 150 bucks to do it for me some week in October.  New tundra not on lot until mid October so have a few weeks to get rotors/pads done.  Not sure if I want to go super cheap on rotors/pads (difference of 70 bucks coated vs. non coated rotors) since if deal falls thru like truck in route gets totalled or comes in all scratched up,   I would prefer slightly better rotors/pads vs. the economy brand if keeping my current tundra?    Monday will put 500 on credit card to hold new 2021 being built end of Sept. tundra and dlr said I can always back out since they will sell it if I do not take it in 1-2 weeks easily none around anymore. 

ONLY thing I do not like is rip off 399 dealer service fee think that is INSANE HIGH (most now are 299 still rip off) for filing paperwork as well as black metallic color prefer dark charcoal gray tundra like I have now.  Plus,  good news is I went online thru Progressive and my new tundra with safety sense BS stuff I will not use besides adaptive cruise control will save me 70 off every 6 months in premiums due to safety tech discount new tundra has mine not have.    Black color is hard to keep clean but is surely better than most of the tundra other colors like CEMENT and LUNAR ROCK the 2 newer colors made for young kids.   AT least the black is metallic and if kept clean looks o.k. I guess?????    matches my black valk I/S - now is Valkryie related....

[cookiedough]

oh yah,  almost forgot for those watching this Sunday's night football game, around 9 p.m. halftime,  there will be a commercial advertising the all totally new 2022 tundra which will have a twin turbo V6, new everything from the ground up.  Changes I know of as of now:

twin turbo V6 vs. tried and tru old school 5.7L V8 has now (around 440hp vs. old school V8 381 ponies which for me is still plenty) and guessing 3-4 more mpg V6 vs. old school V8
sounds like 10 speed tranny (maybe 8 speeds?) vs. tried and tru old school 6 speed has now
composite bed vs. old school sheet metal
6 lug nuts heavy duty vs. old school 5 lug nuts
new rims, new brand of tires (stock bridgestone duelers have now suck)
very macho beefy looking front grille and some new having 3 marker lights in front since required if over 80 inches wide on some trim levels now (old design was 79.9 inches wide not needed front 3 marker lights)
LED headlights and LED fog lights
COIL suspension like dodge ram has now vs. old school leaf springs has now
fully boxed frame like Ford new one

biggest change for me is not wanting a NEW engine/tranny not proven and especially a twin turbo even if is faster, more powerful, better mpg,  will not be as reliable as the 5.7L V8 and 6 speed tranny now in the tundra.  Plus,  wanna bet Sunday night logging into toyota website if they have pricing will be 3-4K increase in pricing apples to apples comparison to a new 2021 tundra???  will see I guess?  

ONLY thing heard rumors of not know if true is they FINALLY might have a crewmax with 6.5 foot bed length that the big 3 has had for years now which is what I want.  But, then again, will be near the 50K mark am sure for a SR5 mid level trim and OUT of my budget.....    A new 2021 tundra old school design SR5 trim is 43K still NOT cheap by any means and NO discounts on any of them which also sucks.

[cookiedough]

bummer, new TV ad and info online on all new 2022 tundra.  NO mention on pricing or cab/bed configs just all TECHY features and terrain mgmt. push buttons and HUGE 14 inch screen vs. normal 8 or 10 inch.

Copying others like Ford on auto steering while backing up a trailer.  I do like the electronic rear locking differential much needed if in 2wd in the snow vs. current BS tundra has cutting power from spinning wheels and applying brake force independently which does not work and is useless.

gotta say,  who needs 478 stock and 583 lbs. of torque in hybrid twin turbo V6?  I guess gotta compete and best Ford F150 now plus 12K towing vs was 10.2K towing?  Who in reality tows much over 8000lbs. in any 1/2 ton truck anyways? 

sort of copying dodge as well with coil springs in back and adjustable fox shocks for those times you need more firmness or lift.   

Pricing will be interesting hope it comes out soon to compare to 2021 tundra, bet is much more than the normal 800 to 1K price increase every year.

[Patrick]

Since you mentioned Ford and Dodge, have you looked at them ? Toyota may be copying them for a reason.

[cookiedough]

Since you mentioned Ford and Dodge, have you looked at them ? Toyota may be copying them for a reason.

yes and no on both.  Major drawback to other mfgs. in my area is resale/trade in value and cost to purchase new is much higher.  The big 3 if trading in every 3-5 years loose out well over 12K depreciation (give or take). With my tundra 4 model years old and 51K miles,  if I trade it in mid October on a new 2021 tundra, depreciation will be only tad over 6K in over 4 years of use.  The big 3 would be double that in terms of depreciation.

Price and mpg numbers are not out yet on new tundra. 

[Kidd]

I too , had a  Rav4 V6  and loved it ,  best car ever , and fast fast fast , fun to drive , wish I had not of sold it  with 56miles

Now , we have 2008 GX 470  and a 2013 Gx 460 Lexus 
Not   fast     ,     they are know as Land cruiser Prado in   every country except the US and Canada
The engines in the GX line   will  go way over 300K miles

[six2go #152]

Since you mentioned Ford and Dodge, have you looked at them ? Toyota may be copying them for a reason.

yes and no on both.  Major drawback to other mfgs. in my area is resale/trade in value and cost to purchase new is much higher.  The big 3 if trading in every 3-5 years loose out well over 12K depreciation (give or take). With my tundra 4 model years old and 51K miles,  if I trade it in mid October on a new 2021 tundra, depreciation will be only tad over 6K in over 4 years of use.  The big 3 would be double that in terms of depreciation.

Price and mpg numbers are not out yet on new tundra. 

I wonder why you are trading trucks so often. Obviously you don't put many miles on them per year. A new truck of any brand properly maintained should last well over 200,000 miles or in your case at least 15 years.

[cookiedough]

Since you mentioned Ford and Dodge, have you looked at them ? Toyota may be copying them for a reason.

yes and no on both.  Major drawback to other mfgs. in my area is resale/trade in value and cost to purchase new is much higher.  The big 3 if trading in every 3-5 years loose out well over 12K depreciation (give or take). With my tundra 4 model years old and 51K miles,  if I trade it in mid October on a new 2021 tundra, depreciation will be only tad over 6K in over 4 years of use.  The big 3 would be double that in terms of depreciation.

Price and mpg numbers are not out yet on new tundra. 

I wonder why you are trading trucks so often. Obviously you don't put many miles on them per year. A new truck of any brand properly maintained should last well over 200,000 miles or in your case at least 15 years.

why not when trade in value is high for the most part 2K or less depreciation per year driving it off the lot?  Back in GM's heyday in 1990's when I got the GM employee purchase price, I was trading in chevy silverado's every 6-10 months and only out a few hundred bucks.  Once the dealership had to give me money back...

before Covid,  I was putting on about 10K on my truck, but last over 1 year not driving it much.

[Jack B]

It’s a good time to sell.
Not a good time to buy.