At my wit's end with front suspension

[Knapdog]

Now I don't wish to upset anyone, and I'm optimistic that things can be put right, but at the moment this is the most uncomfortable ride of any bike I've ever owned.
I'm doing something about the '98 rear shocks and have ordered Bitubos' from Italy so that should be sorted.
However, I'm convinced there's something going on at the front.
I feel every single bump in the road. It's jarring. I've tried every front tyre pressure from 33 to 42 and there's hardly any difference. It's almost as if there is no suspension at all.
I've had the forks refurbished at my Honda dealer at a cost of £409. It was that price because I took the forks in. If I'd taken the bike it would have been well over £500.

I love the bike. I've only been riding it since March and have done nothing like the mileage of some of you diehards but at nearly 2000 miles under my belt I've got to know the bike pretty well and I want to keep it. It's done nearly 15,000 miles.

Now what do you make, if anything of this....

1. Bringing the bike gently up from sidestand to upright with noone on board there is 105mm of available travel from bottom of seal.



2. When I sit on the bike or even plonk myself up and down on the seat three times this cable tie does not move. In other words, there is no front Sag at all.



3. If I squeeze the front brake and push the handlebars down to get that cable tie moving nothing happens. The suspension doesn't move. I have to force the handlebars down as it feels as if something is sticking. Once I can get passed this "sticking" (brake is still applied) the suspension activates and I get this much travel...



4. If I roll the bike forwards and slam on the brakes I get this much travel.....



5. Finally, I've noticed that when I was getting on and off the bike, the suspension would not always return to its original position. Here it is with 85mm travel showing as opposed to 105mm. I'm off the bike and it's held itself at that lower figure.



Is any of the above not normal?
As I've mentioned in previous posts, unfortunately I've never seen another Valkyrie to be able to compare it with.
When I squeeze the front brake and start to push down on the bars the suspension just doesn't want to move until I give it a bit of force. If I start to get some "give"  I doges a bit of a clunk but I'm putting that down to the brakes.
I don't believe there's any play in the Steering head.
Someone must know what's going on here. Thank you in anticipation.

[98valk]

I installed progressive springs and reduce fork oil level from tech manual level and/or oil weight.  I mix amsoil 10wt and 5 wt in correct ratio to get 7.5 wt.

fork oil weights are not standard and there in lies a big problem.

https://www.peterverdone.com/suspension-fluids/

[Avanti]

I use Maxima 125-150 rated at 7wt. by maxima.

[hubcapsc]

When I first got my bike it needed a lot of work. I took my forks off and took
them to the dealer while I did other stuff. The dealer charged a lot and did
a terrible job.

I redid the job soon after, myself. I did it using the factory service manual
instructions as exactly as I could. I also upgraded the springs to Progressive
brand springs. That was around 15 years ago. I rebuilt them again just like
that a couple of years ago. I like my front forks, they work pretty well...

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

A dealer also turned my forks into hard rock suspension, for big money.

I don't know what they did (too much oil, too heavy of oil), but they had to be done again, and with a bit less oil than called for.  But not by that dealer again. 

[da prez]

Sound like to much oil and , or wrong weight. Most kid mechanics do not know how to work on these machines

            da prez

[Bagger John - #3785]

Did you relieve tension on the one side of the fork during installation (per the service manual)?

[Knapdog]

Your replies have been appreciated guys and I take note.
At the moment I'm not too concerned if my during are OEM,  Progressive,  Acme or Disney as I don't believe, whatever the make, that they're coming into play.
Bagger John, I don't quite know what you mean by relieving tension before installation but I'll look it up.
I don't have any suspension, it appears to me.
As I've said above, I sit on the bike, jump up and down on the seat and there is no sag on the forks at all. They don't move unless I apply the front brake and push hard downwards.

[Valker]

The procedure in the factory manual MUST be followed exactly when reinstalling the front wheel.

[Knapdog]

The procedure in the factory manual MUST be followed exactly when reinstalling the front wheel.

Cheers.
It's getting late. Just been out with Mrs Knapdog celebrating our wedding anniversary.
Will double check the procedure in the morning.
 

[Jess from VA]

I seem to remember reading it is possible to suck a little fork oil out the top of both forks, rather than repeating the entire tear down process.

If this is true, someone please explain it. 

Like a few ounces per side?

[Cracker Jack]

What you describe sounds like an extreme case of "sticksion". This is typically caused by the forks not being parallel where the bottom of the forks center to center distance is different than the upper portion.

In that case the "sticksion" usually occurs at the bottom of the travel. Looks like your problem is occurring at the top of travel. Try loosening the pinch screws at the bottom of the left fork to allow the fork to reposition itself on the axel then bounce to see if that helps.   

[RonW]

"Try loosening the pinch screws at the bottom of the left fork to allow the fork to reposition itself on the axel then bounce to see if that helps."


in all fairness, the manual states to loosen the right fork's pinch bolts. But after reading your post on loosening the left fork's pinch bolts, I don't know what to think anymore.

Anyways, I just report you decide.


http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,45929.msg437088.html#msg437088

[Cracker Jack]

The axel bolt on the right side provides the clamping pressure and the right fork is part of the clamp up and is not free to move. The left fork is free to slide on the axel when the pinch bolts are loose and allows the left  fork to come into parallel with the right fork. That's why the left fork pinch bolts are the last to  be tightened.

[RonW]

what do you think, Knapdog?

[longrider]

did the dealer install new slider and guide bushings.  Possibly a bit tight if the front axel is not adjusted correctly.  The axel shaft should be almost flush with the fork on the top and bottom side of the shaft

[Knapdog]

what do you think, Knapdog?

Well, it's 07.20 here and I've just woken up. One of the joys of posting in an evening, here in Wales, is you can go to bed and wake up the next morning and discover so many suggestions to your Valkyrie queries. 

I think you all may well have come up with the answer....

As per workshop manual, I was meticulous about lining up the very top of the forks and tightening the various bolts in the right order but at the bottom the manual does say to tighten the left pinch bolts first.
Once I'm up and about I'll jack the bike up  loosen the axle bolt and pinch bolts and then reassemble by tightening the right pinch bolts first.
I'm feeling good about this.

[Knapdog]

What you describe sounds like an extreme case of "sticksion". This is typically caused by the forks not being parallel where the bottom of the forks center to center distance is different than the upper portion.

In that case the "sticksion" usually occurs at the bottom of the travel. Looks like your problem is occurring at the top of travel. Try loosening the pinch screws at the bottom of the left fork to allow the fork to reposition itself on the axel then bounce to see if that helps.  

Cracker Jack, you may well have hit the nail on the head here, pal.
All the signs are pointing to this very problem. No wonder I don't have any suspension.

Would this then be the correct sequence?.....

1. Push axle bolt through left fork until it stops.
2. Tighten Left Pinch bolts
3. Tighten and torque up axle nut
4. Tighten Right Pinch bolts.
5. Loosen Left Pinch bolts.
6. Brake on and bounce forks up and down to set forks.
7. Tighten left pinch bolts.

I'll report back.

[Knapdog]

I have Suspension !

It was indeed the pesky pinch bolts.
I got the front wheel off the floor, loosened everything and put it all back in the suggested order, alongwith pumping the forks.
Took it for a 10 mile ride and the difference was immediate.
I still await my new rear shocks but the front is now vastly improved.
Thank you all.

[..]

I have Suspension !

It was indeed the pesky pinch bolts.
I got the front wheel off the floor, loosened everything and put it all back in the suggested order, alongwith pumping the forks.
Took it for a 10 mile ride and the difference was immediate.
I still await my new rear shocks but the front is now vastly improved.
Thank you all.

Woo Hoo!

[h13man]

A dealer also turned my forks into hard rock suspension, for big money.

I don't know what they did (too much oil, too heavy of oil), but they had to be done again, and with a bit less oil than called for.  But not by that dealer again. 

I agree that this is the issue. I used 10w Belray for 14 yrs. w/o issue. There is a difference in volume between the 2 fork legs also.

[longrider]

Nice when the problem is so easily solved.  The ride may feel a bit stiff but she'll handle like a sport bike. One last thing,  loosen the right leg pinch bolts and retorque the axle bolt.  the axle bolt is always snugged up BEFORE the pinch bolts.   

[Knapdog]

Nice when the problem is so easily solved.  The ride may feel a bit stiff but she'll handle like a sport bike. One last thing,  loosen the right leg pinch bolts and retorque the axle bolt.  the axle bolt is always snugged up BEFORE the pinch bolts.  

Thanks longrider.
If I loosen the right fork pinch bolts and then retorque the axle nut isn't that the same as doing the left pinch bolts first, which was my problem in the first place?

[steveB (VRCC UK)]

Knapdog - PM me and I'll give you my address (just outside Abergavenny) you can drop by and bounce my forks. I've had lots of fun on Valks over the last 24 years and 250k miles. If it can go wrong on a Valk I've probably seen it.

[Knapdog]

Knapdog - PM me and I'll give you my address (just outside Abergavenny) you can drop by and bounce my forks. I've had lots of fun on Valks over the last 24 years and 250k miles. If it can go wrong on a Valk I've probably seen it.

Thanks, Steve.

[DragonRdr]

I'm glad it worked out for you but according to the Valkyrie Maintenance manual this is the proper sequence:

1. Push axle bolt through left fork until it stops.
2. Tighten and torque the left pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).
3. Tighten and torque the axle nut (67 Ft/Lb).
4. Brake on and bounce forks up and down to set forks.
5. Tighten and torque the right pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).

I had the same problem after I had the local Honda dealer replace my fork seals.

Keep the shiney side up and the rubber side down! 

[turtle254]

I'm glad it worked out for you but according to the Valkyrie Maintenance manual this is the proper sequence:

1. Push axle bolt through left fork until it stops.
2. Tighten and torque the left pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).
3. Tighten and torque the axle nut (67 Ft/Lb).
4. Brake on and bounce forks up and down to set forks.
5. Tighten and torque the right pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).

I had the same problem after I had the local Honda dealer replace my fork seals.

Keep the shiney side up and the rubber side down! 

Wrong ... left last !

[Knapdog]

I'm glad it worked out for you but according to the Valkyrie Maintenance manual this is the proper sequence:

1. Push axle bolt through left fork until it stops.
2. Tighten and torque the left pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).
3. Tighten and torque the axle nut (67 Ft/Lb).
4. Brake on and bounce forks up and down to set forks.
5. Tighten and torque the right pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).

I had the same problem after I had the local Honda dealer replace my fork seals.

Keep the shiney side up and the rubber side down!  

Thanks but the trouble I had was by actually following the Workshop manual.

[turtle254]

I'm glad it worked out for you but according to the Valkyrie Maintenance manual this is the proper sequence:

1. Push axle bolt through left fork until it stops.
2. Tighten and torque the left pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).
3. Tighten and torque the axle nut (67 Ft/Lb).
4. Brake on and bounce forks up and down to set forks.
5. Tighten and torque the right pinch bolts (16 Ft/Lb).

I had the same problem after I had the local Honda dealer replace my fork seals.

Keep the shiney side up and the rubber side down!  

Thanks but the trouble I had was by actually following the Workshop manual and tightening the left pinch bolts first. By then torque-ing up the Axle nut I was somehow causing the "stiction" on the suspension.
The only solution to my problem was undoing everything and tightening the right pinch bolts first  before torque-ing up the axle nut.

torque axle first, then right pinch bolts, so its clamped right. Then the left side.

[DragonRdr]

Thanks for the correction and good to know. I guess I shouldn't be surprised the service manual is wrong. I'll make a note in my manual for future reference. Glad to know you all are out there if I run into any problems like this in the future.

Thanks again.  

[Knapdog]

torque axle first, then right pinch bolts, so its clamped right. Then the left side.
[/quote]

Thanks.

[DragonRdr]

Thanks Knap dog 

[turtle254]

torque axle first, then right pinch bolts, so its clamped right. Then the left side.

But surely if you just torque up the axle nut first then all you're doing is squeezing together the bottom of the forks too tight. Tightening the pinch bolts after this is almost pointless and there won't be enough "room" to bounce down and settle the forks.
[/quote]the left side is free to flood because its not in the clamp parts after you torque up. shoulder on axle against the speedometer against the wheel against the spacer against the right leg to the flanged nut on the outside right leg is to be the parts in the clamp torqued  condition.

[Knapdog]

torque axle first, then right pinch bolts, so its clamped right. Then the left side.

But surely if you just torque up the axle nut first then all you're doing is squeezing together the bottom of the forks too tight. Tightening the pinch bolts after this is almost pointless and there won't be enough "room" to bounce down and settle the forks.

the left side is free to flood because its not in the clamp parts after you torque up. shoulder on axle against the speedometer against the wheel against the spacer against the right leg to the flanged nut on the outside right leg is to be the parts in the clamp torqued  condition.

[/quote]

I see.
There are three ways on this thread now on how to complete the reassembly of the front wheel and depending on who you are, they work.
That's the beauty of the forum.
Great feedback. Thank you.

[RonW]

This is among my favorite tools, an aluminum 17mm x 19mm hex adapter. If you tighten the left fork's pinch bolts last, you'd need two wrenches. A second wrench to hold the axle stationary while tightening axle bolt at the other end. I guess, you could just as well tighten the left fork's pinch bolts temporarily to keep the axle from spinning. Then once the axle bolt is tightened, loosen the left fork's pinch bolts.





It was around 1847, give or take a year or two, when Rio Will pointed out the factory incision mark on the shoulder of the front axle. Apparently it's an alignment mark perhaps used by the factory assembly line workers. Anyways, if you follow the manual by tightening the Right fork's pinch bolts last, when tightening the left fork's pinch bolts first, the factory mark should line up with the inside of the left fork (bottom pic). I assume if the left fork's pinch bolts are tightened last, the factory mark should still line up with the inside of the left fork (?).

[RonW]

"the left side is free to flood because its not in the clamped parts after you torque up.

• axle shoulder against the speedometer
• speedometer against the wheel
• wheel against the spacer
• spacer against the right leg
• to the flanged nut on the outside right leg."

Below, axle bolt torqued to specs. Right fork's pinch bolts tightened. Left fork's pinch bolts still to be tightened. Left fork free to move laterally on axle.



Boiled down to it's essence. (A) axle bolt, (B) shoulder on axle. Axle bolt tightened. A and B clamps Right fork from moving laterally. Right fork's pinch bolts loose, per manual.

[Knapdog]

Ron, yellow text is nearly impossible  to read   (only teasing).

Those diagrams you've put up are brilliant.

If the axle bolt is pushed in until it stops wouldn't that line on the shoulder be lining up anyway?

[Knapdog]

Just to go back to the various methods of reassembling the wheel that we've discussed I'd just like to reiterate that by tightening the left pinch bolts first (as per manual) and then torque-ing up the axle bolt, I was possibly squeezing the forks closer together which caused the "stiction", which caused my suspension not to work, which started this thread.
Once I'd tapped the bolt through and tightened up the right pinch bolts first my troubles were over. The left fork was then free to find its sweet spot with the "bounce" part, before then tightening.
Sorry to flog a dead horse but for me that has to be the best way.
Many thanks from over the pond.

[RonW]

Ron, yellow text is nearly impossible  to read  

actually the color yellow should be tinged with a little bit of orange, like the color used for the headers on the valk forum. Unfortunately, the forum's palette doesn't offer that shade. We used the shade on another bike forum way back. to post quotes instead of using quote blocks. That other forum also used a dark background like the Valk forum.

If the axle bolt is pushed in until it stops wouldn't that line on the shoulder be lining up anyway?

yes the axle will always stop the same place relative to wheel if you were to shove the axle in until it stops, but the left fork itself is independent of this axle's position insofar as lining up with that factory mark. Without tightening down the pinch bolts, the left fork is free to move laterally so it depends on where the left fork came to rest on the axle's shoulder.

Cracker Jack stated that if you remove the front wheel, the axle would go right through the left fork like a projectile. The diameter of the hole for the axle in the left fork is a smidgen larger than the axle's shoulder ..... all the way through the left fork. That is, the shoulder doesn't bottom out somewhere in the tunnel due to a reduced diameter section hidden from view (pic below).

If the shoulder could go in only so far into the fork, a set distance, than indeed lining up the left fork with the factory mark could be set by the axle, but that's isn't the design. The axle doesn't couple the left fork internally.

You can see the leading edge of the shoulder protruding out of the left fork's inseam which wouldn't be possible otherwise. Or, try shoving the shoulder end of the axle into the left fork with the speedo unit off the wheel and there's nothing to impede it's travel, likewise the left fork's side-to-side movement on the axle.

[RonW]

Just to go back to the various methods of reassembling the wheel that we've discussed I'd just like to reiterate that by tightening the left pinch bolts first (as per manual) and then torque-ing up the axle bolt, I was squeezing the forks closer together which caused the "stiction", which caused my suspension not to work, which started this thread.

• Once I'd tapped the bolt through and tightened up the right pinch bolts first my troubles were over.

[edited]

There is a further step in the process that me and some members have taken. After completing the *Left pinch bolts last* method, we loosen the Right fork's pinch bolts, then loosen the axle bolt enuff. Then, re-torque the axle bolt to specs. Then pogo stick the front end ala *Right pinch bolt last* method per manual. Followed by tightening the Right pinch bolts again.

The left fork should be where it should be since you already did the *Left pinch bolts last* method. Somehow loosening the axle bolt releases some tension binding in the fork assembly. True, perhaps real or imagined. However, nothing pagan.

To do this properly though, the bike has to be secured 90 degrees to the floor. So the side stand has to be chocked up in advance. After bouncing the front end, the handlebars can not be allowed to swing while getting off the bike. This before torquing the Right pinch bolts. In other words, do the *Left pinch bolts last* method, followed by the *Right pinch bolt last* method.