Replacing for the 4th time Rear Wheel bearing. Get-n fed up.

[dennis_obryan1965@msn.com]

I have a 97 valk tour. I am getting ready to replace my rear wheel bearings for the 4th or 5th time in 70,000 miles. I even put a different (used) rear wheel 0n it now the left bearing is bad in that wheel.
I have had honda mechs. to replace them up until now. I am going to do this one myself.

Question: Is there any other option other than the honda brand wheel bearing? If I go with the Honda bearing do I need to pack it even though they are sealed? (My Honda Mech says to do so).

also do I use moly grease on my splines and drive shaft splines?

[hubcapsc]

I have had honda mechs. to replace them up until now. I am going to do this one myself.

I've never heard of anything like that... could it have always been the same mechanic that did it before?
Carelessly driving them in could mess them up... I drove in the first couple I did with a socket that was
just a smidgeon smaller than the OD of the bearing, I have the  Honda driver now, haven't used it yet.

No banging away at anything other than the outer part of the bearing...

-Mike

[mirion]

See article in Shoptalk called "Rear Bearing: Replace left 6204 with double roller 5204". I just did it to mine and it might be what you need.

[RLD]

Knock on wood, I ran 107k on my last I/S and never replaced a bearing. Makes you wonder.

[Wildman]

Sounds like the bearings are being pounded in and the center race is being hit while doing it.
Bearingsdirect.com inexpensive and quick delivery.
Put your bearing in the freezer let it get cold for a while put it in a towel and get it in to the whell while it's as cold as possible. some times they go in with just a tap when they are very cold.

[MP]

I agree, sounds like they were pounding on the center.  ONLY drive on the outer part.  Is the center spacer in between the bearings?  It HAS to be there.

MP

[6jugzz]

Take an old clean rag and put a little 10 wt. machine oil on it. Wipe the o.d. of the bearing race and the i.d. of the c'bore in the wheel. Install the bearing, lightly tap with a deadblow brass hammer around the outer rim of the bearing until it is seated in the c'bore and level. Then use a socket or driver to finish the install. Listen for a change in sound and you will know that you have reached the bottom of the c'bore. DO NOT HAMMER ON THE INNER RACE OR OUTER SEAL.

"STACK UP" IS VERY IMPORTANT WHEN INSTALLING TWO BEARINGS WITH A SPACER IN BETWEEN. MAKE SURE THE SPACER IN BURR FREE ON BOTH ENDS,O.D.,I.D. THE OVERALL LENGTH OF THE SPACER SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED AS THIS SETS THE PRELOAD AT FINAL ASSEMBLY. IF YOU HAVE GROUND/FILED/SANDED THE ENDS YOU MAY BE PUTTING TO MUCH PRELOAD ON THE INNER RACE. CHECK IT,FOR DIM. CORRECTNESS.

[Daniel Meyer]

Bearing info here:
http://www.jkozloski.com/generic_parts.htm

Get timken bearings, sealed both sides.

Check the seat in your wheel for true-ness...no little bumps/etc on the lip that may be cause them not to be able to seat completely. Check the center spacer and make sure it has not been damaged on the ends/etc.

Replace the dust seal on the left side.

At each service, smear a bit of grease on the bearing seal  (keeps dust/moisture from penetrating seals as they get older).

[Mildew]

I would think it would also help if the rim was hot

[Ricky-D]

Four times!

Definitely sounds as if there was an installation problem.

Being called a "shop mechanic" does not automatically instill intelligence in that person, nor confidence in the ability of same.

I let no one touch a wrench to my stuff!

***

[valk2001]

I just had my rear wheel bearings replaced 2 weeks ago on my 2001 Interstate with 101K miles.  This was the first wheel bearings replaced on either wheel.  I do a lot of 2 up riding with about 400 pounds of passengers so I thought that was pretty good mileage.  I bought a rear wheel bearing kit from my Honda dealer in Sumter, SC for about $35 (not Honda bearings) and they replaced them for another $30 (I took them the wheel) while I waited.  Been running smooth for the last 500 miles.  I sounds like you have other issues that are putting excessive strain on the bearings.

[Chrisj CMA]

What I have seen at two different Honda Dealerships is not hammering away at the center race, but just as bad for the bearing.  Ive seen them tap the bearing in with a block of wood (so all they get is flush)  Then tap the dust seal on top of the bearing so its flush and touching the bearing which isint fully seated in its seat.  Then installation of the wheel completes the bearing seating by pressing on the inner race with the spacer.  You will know this applies if its very hard to put the wheel back on the first time, like in the spacer and the caliper plate are competing for what little space is there and you have to work at it.........then the next time its much easier (bearing is set then)

[Disco]

Great advice here.

If I go with the Honda bearing do I need to pack it even though they are sealed? (My Honda Mech says to do so).

To me, here's the first clue something is going wrong with the previous installations of your bearings.  The sealed bearing are ready to go right out of the box and wrapper.  IF he's tried to pack the new sealed bearings, there's a good chance he's violated the seal sufficiently to allow the grease to leak out and/or crap to get in over time.  

Last time I changed bearings, all I had to do was put the wheels in the yard on a sunny spring afternoon to get warm and the bearings in the freezer for an hour or so.  They popped right in with a couple of gentle taps of a rubber mallet on a 32mm socket on the outer race.  I have a new set of bearings on the shelf and just checked - a 33mm socket would be better on the rear and maybe a 34mm would still fit.  The OD of both rear bearings (5204 & 6204) is 47mm

Sears, here I come!  

BTW, when I bought the bearings on my shelf, NAPA said 5204 was not a valid bearing.  ???   That was OK with me because the 6204 he pulled was Made in China.  No Thanks.  I got mine at Purvis because it was convenient.  At least those were made in Argentina... 

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

400 pounds of passengers

Wow ...You like the really big girls 

[sugerbear]

maybe he has 3-4 strapped on the back

[Ricky-D]

Beating on a bearing, any kind of beating is a no no.

Any kind of force should only be applied to the race that is trying to fit in/on the pilot.

Regarding wheel bearings on the Valkyrie the conversation is directed to the outer race of the bearing trying to seat in the pilot in the wheel.

The inner race should not be touched while installing the bearing. Absolutely!

Best procedure:  Use a threaded rod, washers to help and a couple of collars that fit the outer race of the bearings.  You can use anything for collars: sockets, old bearing races, pieces of pipe, whatever.

Fairly simple after that.  Tighten down on the nuts at each end of the threaded rod and the bearing go in smooth and easy. Tighten it down good to insure the bearings are seated fully.

If you follow this procedure you will never have a problem with a bearing from faulty installation practice.

Mess with the inner race and you can expect to redo it again.

***

[X Ring]

Like Ricky D I also use that style of bearing press but mine has fender washers that match up with the outer races.  When they stop, I remove the press and use a socket and hammer tapping on the outer race to insure the bearings are seated.

Marty 

[1FAST6]

Yep, let the same guy install them the same way as the others..... and you'll have the same problem again.  I got some fender washers, cut out the center with a torch so it clears the inner race, and tap them in using a big socket over the washers.  As long as you don't put any force on the inner race, and tap them in until they bottom out (you hear the sound change), you should get lots of miles.  Of course, some will say they had premature failure, and it happens in some cases even when you do everything right.  But in the vast majority of cases, when properly installed you should be good at least for 70k mi. or more.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

There is a lot of good advice here. I’m an industrial mechanic and install a lot of bearings. I just spent several days installing two bearings which weighed 600 lbs total in an in-assessable spot 6’ above the floor. Just the seal on that job cost $800. I hope to retire before anymore of those dang things wear out.

If a bearing is sealed on both sides then leave it that way. If it’s a 30 year-old bearing making noise and “you can’t buy them anymore” then you might risk peeling back the seal and squirting some grease from a “grease needle” into it but otherwise trust the bearing manufacturer and don’t ruin the seal.

I buy my valk bearings from the same industrial supply house I use at work and I install them as mentioned with a socket and a brass hammer (the brass hammer protects the socket). Remember only put pressure on the outer race, not the inner race.

It sounds to me like the problem is probably with the bearing installer. Make sure the spacer is in there, he might have forgotten to install it.

[Jess from VA]

A bit of a thread drift, and a question.

It seems pretty well established that the left rear single row wheel bearing is a weak link on the Valk.  They appear to fail sooner and more often than the right rear or the fronts.  

I was on a long ride in the WVa boondocks yesterday and I started getting occasional (but increasing) grinding-dragging-buzzing-squawking  from the rear, and I knew right away it was my (almost certainly) left wheel bearing.  Lucked into finding a shop 13 miles away, and it was the left rear.

The IS had only 32K and a GTT went on 6 weeks earlier.  A visual and finger check of the bearing(s) at that time revealed no obvious defect.  

I am starting to think that the darkside tire may speed up the single row left rear wheel bearing deterioration by increased lateral forces of the CT sidewall.  Especially for those of us who live for running hard in the mountain twisties as often as possible (almost every singe ride). The left rear wheel bearing is a weak link on the bike anyway, and I am thinking the darkside speeds up the failure rate.  This would not change my mind on darkside at all, but I am certainly going to the double row right bearing on the left with cut down spacer collar the next time the rear wheels ore off each of my IS's.

Comments?  (NOT on darkside.... rather on darkside effects on left wheel bearing.)
 

[MP]

I do not think it would make enough difference to show.  You still have the same weight on it.  Once the axle is tight, it is pretty much a solid unit, and I do not think you could put enough more stress on a bearing only a few inches away to make a difference.
IMHO,

You had a failure, period.  You would have had that failure without the CT.  It just happened then.  If you put enough stress on that bearing, in those few miles, to make a perfectly good bearing fail, those running CT's would stop, because they would be constantly changing  bearings.

I have converted both my bikes to double bearings, both sides. I do agree, the LH bearing is a weaker spot.  However, it does last a long time normally. So, it might be overkill to do that.  I just feel better, it is my money, and I spends it like I want to!  LOL

MP

[chip]

I have recently replaced my rear bearings 1st time at 70,000 miles. Had not heard of the mod. I'm hearing about here ,double bearing and a shortened spacer. I'm guessing the double bearing is twice as wide as a single. You would shorten the spacer by the difference between a single and a double bearing. Am I understanding this correctly? And if so does someone have a manufacturer/part # of this double bearing? I'd prefer to have one ahead of time.

[Ricky-D]

I have recently replaced my rear bearings 1st time at 70,000 miles. Had not heard of the mod. I'm hearing about here ,double bearing and a shortened spacer. I'm guessing the double bearing is twice as wide as a single. You would shorten the spacer by the difference between a single and a double bearing. Am I understanding this correctly? And if so does someone have a manufacturer/part # of this double bearing? I'd prefer to have one ahead of time.

As long as you are talking about the correct spacer!

Remember, you'll lose the oil seal as a result of using the double bearing.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

I have recently replaced my rear bearings 1st time at 70,000 miles. Had not heard of the mod. I'm hearing about here ,double bearing and a shortened spacer. I'm guessing the double bearing is twice as wide as a single. You would shorten the spacer by the difference between a single and a double bearing. Am I understanding this correctly? And if so does someone have a manufacturer/part # of this double bearing? I'd prefer to have one ahead of time.

No, not twice as wide........the mod is essentially using a right side bearing on the left side as well as the right side.....its a DOUBLE ROLLER BEARING and the correct left side is a single roller bearing.......the double roller is around 1/8" wider is all

[Wildman]

A double row left hane wheel bearing sounds great.
I haven't loked at the wheel in while.
Did you have to machine the bearing pocket in the hub?
Or , was it just shortening the spacer.
Why would you have to loose the spacer washer, it should still fit fine.

[X Ring]

I have recently replaced my rear bearings 1st time at 70,000 miles. Had not heard of the mod. I'm hearing about here ,double bearing and a shortened spacer. I'm guessing the double bearing is twice as wide as a single. You would shorten the spacer by the difference between a single and a double bearing. Am I understanding this correctly? And if so does someone have a manufacturer/part # of this double bearing? I'd prefer to have one ahead of time.

Here the Shop Talk article Chip.  http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/5204_bearing_mod.pdf

Marty

[mirion]

I just did the double row mod on the left rear and I am pleased with it. I at first was apprehensive about eliminating the dust seal also but the bearing is already sealed and after all, there is no dust seal on the right hand side. As a precaution I added a "Nilos" ring to protect the seal on the left side. These rings are typically used for unsealed bearings to retain grease but I am using it as a secondary shield. Below is a link to a Nilos diagram. I don't have the Nilos part number (it a AV style) at home but I will post it tomorrow from work. They can be purchased at most bearings houses for around $10.
http://www2.nilos-ring.de/default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122934/A/2/ID/122939

[MP]

The spacer OUTSIDE the wheel, between the caliper bracket and the bearing, needs to be shortened .260".  DO NOT shorten the long spacer IN the wheel between the bearings!  Do not do anything to the pockets.

MP

[2qmedic]

One item that was asked and I may have passed the answer was of adding grease to a sealed bearing. The answer is no.

The mfg placed a predetermined amount of grease into the bearings so that it takes up approx 60% of the vacant space. As the bearing and grease heats, it expands. If too much grease is in there, the grease will expand and displace the seal, there by opening the bearings to the environment.

The rubber seal is the best vs a medal seal. The installation of the dust seal is not needed, but I would use it as an extra barrier if it fit as I did the double bearing mod on the left side also. Rain is of no problem and as long as high pressure water is not directed onto the seal, no problem.

 

[F6Dave]

I know this may sound silly, but when my '98 lost the LR bearing at about 50K miles, the dealer sold me a bearing with a seal on ONLY ONE SIDE.  Once I removed the bad bearing and saw the difference, I went to NAPA (40 miles closer) and bought the correct bearing, a 6204-2RS (for 2 rubber seals).  It was half the price of the dealer's incorrect bearing, and it has now lasted twice as long (the bike is approaching 150K miles).  This is a standard automotive bearing stocked by many auto parts stores.

I thought this was just an isolated incident, till I talked to a guy at a rally who had a dealer replace the same bearing TWICE with the same, sealed on one side bearing.  They didn't last very long at all.  So after the third failure someone discovered the error and fixed it right.  It sure looks like Honda either got a part number wrong, or maybe had a batch of mis-labeled bearings.

The low mileage failures of the OEM LR bearing seem to be most common on early Valks, which also makes me think there was a supplier problem of some kind.  Honda engineers are well versed in bearing load ratings and I doubt they spec'd one so small that this many early failures would occur.

[Daniel Meyer]

Comments?  (NOT on darkside.... rather on darkside effects on left wheel bearing.)
 

140,000 miles on my Valk. Roughly 126,000 of those are on the Darkside, including the passage to Alaska.

Original wheel bearings. I DO carry a spare.

The left bearing is more exposed to the elements and brake dust...the longevity of these are based on correct installation, trueness of the cup on the wheel, the middle spacer dimension, and some work to protect the bearing from exposure.

That is:
1) Replace the dust seal on the wheel at regular intervals.
2) When you have the wheel off, lube the outside of the bearing (on its seal) with a light coat of axle grease. Note, don't break the seal or try to lube the bearing, just lube the seal. This keeps the seals from wearing out at all, repels moisture, and grabs any dust before it can get to the bearing seal.

Remove/clean that grease and reapply each time you have the wheel off.

[ridgeman06]

My rears failed at 18000 miles. I switched to the All Balls kit for the rear. The kit comes with the two bearings and the seal. I think it was around $35. Supposed to be better quality than oem.
One season later ans so far so good.
Take care, Eric

[Jess from VA]

140,000 miles on my Valk. Roughly 126,000 of those are on the Darkside, including the passage to Alaska.  Original wheel bearings.

Thanks Dan, I guess your experience dispels any relation of CT to premature LR wheel bearing failure.  I also believe proper prep and install is key.  But I will go with the double row right on the left anyway.  The apparent 'randomness' of  LR wheel bearing failure is unsat. 

[Daniel Meyer]

Thanks Dan, I guess your experience dispels any relation of CT to premature LR wheel bearing failure.  I also believe proper prep and install is key.  But I will go with the double row right on the left anyway.  The apparent 'randomness' of  LR wheel bearing failure is unsat. 

My only concern with that mod is you lose the dust seal...and then the only seal for your bearing is the sealed bearing seal...and those normally need to be protected.

I've no experience with that mod, but I would expect premature failures due to the exposed nature of that seal.

YMMV though!

[mirion]

Dan, Not sure if you saw my post above and I value your opinions, what do you think of the "Nilos Ring" solution to protect the bearing seal. I have just implemented it with the "XRing" double row on the left  side modification and time will tell, but it should take care of that concern you presented regarding premature bearing failure due to the exposed bearing seal.

http://www2.nilos-ring.de/default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949

[Daniel Meyer]

Dan, Not sure if you saw my post above and I value your opinions, what do you think of the "Nilos Ring" solution to protect the bearing seal. I have just implemented it with the "XRing" double row on the left  side modification and time will tell, but it should take care of that concern you presented regarding premature bearing failure due to the exposed bearing seal.

http://www2.nilos-ring.de/default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949

Looks like a reasonable solution...I'd not seen that before.

[Jess from VA]

Dan, Not sure if you saw my post above and I value your opinions, what do you think of the "Nilos Ring" solution to protect the bearing seal. I have just implemented it with the "XRing" double row on the left  side modification and time will tell, but it should take care of that concern you presented regarding premature bearing failure due to the exposed bearing seal.

http://www2.nilos-ring.de/default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949

Mirion, can you please post the actual part number for the AV type Nilos ring you used to protect the right side bearing on the left?  Thanks. 

[MP]

Dan, here on the farm, we run LOTS of bearings with no external dust seals, just the seals on the bearings.  They are outside, in dirt, in rain, etc, and go for YEARS.  The bearing on my bike axle is in much better conditions than they are.  I think they will last a LONG time.

MP

[X Ring]

Considering the exterior side of the bearing is below the brake rotor mounting point, I think the ability of junk to get in there is slight and the dust seal is just a prophylactic measure by Honda.  mirion sent me a Nilos Ring.  It's a piece of thin stamped sheetmetal.  I will be pulling my rear wheel for final drive maintenance in 4K miles.  I'll takes pics of the left bearing clean off the grease I smeared on the seal to keep it from drying out, put on some clean grease and install the Nilos Ring.  10K miles later I will pull it again and take more pics.

Marty   

[mirion]

The Nilos part number is 6204ZAV. As you can see the thickness of the material is .3mm or .018 inch.
(For more Nilos info go here...http://www2.nilos-ring.de/default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949)




I shortened the spacer an additional .018 from what the XRing specification was or as shown here...