If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is

[Kaiser]

Had a perfectly running '01 I/S.  I decided to do desmog, Dan Marc, and Pingel mods with new fuel lines.

When I was finished, the bike started up fine.  Since it was a cold start, I had the choke on.  Usually, after a few seconds, the RPMs start to increase.  However, this time, the RPMs stayed at around idle.  I let the bike run for a long enough time (several minutes) with the choke on that the RPMs should have increased - but they did not.  (Even though it is colder, it should not have taken that long for the RPMs to increase, right?)

A few minutes later, I try to start it up again and it won't turn over.  It gets really close, but just won't catch.

Here is what I am planning on doing to troubleshoot:

1.  Check the battery.  My understanding is to hook the battery up to a car battery, but don't start the car.  If the bike starts, it's the battery.
2.  If it does not crank, pull the fuel line off of the Pingel.  With a catch-can in place, turn the Pingel on and make sure fuel is flowing.  If it is not, the problem is with the Pingel.  (Highly unlikely, but might as well double-check).
3.  Check the Dan Marc.  After reconnecting the fuel line to the Pingel, pull the fuel line off of one of the carb banks.  With the Pingel turned to "on", turn the ignition to "on" but do not crank the bike.  If fuel comes out, it isn't the Dan Marc.
4.  If all of the above checks out and it still won't crank...???

Does this sound like the proper procedure to you?  I'm betting on it either being the battery or the electrical connection to the Dan Marc.

Your prompt input on getting my bike going again is very appreciated.

[Garland]

I would guess it is the Dan-Marc. Maybe not getting juice, reversed flow, maybe reversed polarity? A kink in the fuel line before or after? It has been awile since I installed mine. I had trouble too, but it was with the fuel filter I put in at the same time. Once I got that sorted, I do remember having to trim the fuel line so it was just so without any bends. Good luck!

[Ricky-D]

Yeah, you would think that the motor would speed up some after a few seconds of applying the choke, especially if you did not disturb the gasoline that was remaining in the float bowls.

So I would suggest that you look very closely to the choke circuit, make sure all the valves are opening up in unison, where you can visually see it happening.

After that it's probably like suggested, a gasoline supply problem, pinched line, something like this!

***

[Kaiser]

I would guess it is the Dan-Marc. Maybe not getting juice, reversed flow, maybe reversed polarity? A kink in the fuel line before or after? It has been awile since I installed mine. I had trouble too, but it was with the fuel filter I put in at the same time. Once I got that sorted, I do remember having to trim the fuel line so it was just so without any bends. Good luck!

Is it possible to reverse the polarity on a Dan Marc?  I've read on here that so long as one wire is to ground and one to juice, it doesn't matter which one you pick.  If this is not the case, than you are probably right that I wired it up wrong as I did not pay attention to which wire I picked to go to + and which one to -.

I'm sure no lines are kinked, and I'm sure flow is going in the right direction.

I'm hoping that since it is unusually cold that it is the battery.

[BOZ]

re: the Dan-marc valve: One wire goes to ground and the other wire goes to one of the coils on the black and white wire. To test the Dan-marc, hook up the wires as indicated and turn on the key. You should be able to see through the Dan-marc valve (i.e. it is "open").
NOTE: The hot wire from the Dan-marc must be hooked up to the black and white wire on the coil. Although the other side of the coil is also "hot" with the key on, it is not a steady "hot" with the motor running.

[alph]

my self, personally, i would never do a "desmog".  my thoughts are; they put those pipes there for a reason.  i believe it's easier to go to the store and buy new rubber air line and replace the old, then it is to pull all that tubing off, then wonder if it'll work.....

[Red Diamond]

Two things, 1) If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is; 2) Had a perfectly running  '01 I/S, I think he regrets it already. These Valkyries are pretty bullet proof, if you tinker with it long enough, pretty soon a bullet will start to penetrate the equation.

[Thunderbolt]

Battery or your fuel line is obstructed either by the valve not opening or a kink.

[Kaiser]

Two things, 1) If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is; 2) Had a perfectly running  '01 I/S, I think he regrets it already. These Valkyries are pretty bullet proof, if you tinker with it long enough, pretty soon a bullet will start to penetrate the equation.

Right you are (about the regret).  Especially considering that my truck went down at the same time.    If I wouldn't have started tampering with the bike, I could have at least rode that to and from work (even if it is literally freezing here in FL).  Oh well, live and learn, right?  At least now I know more about my bike and what it looks like under-the-tank.  In hindsight, I wish I would have left well enough alone.

That is the danger of a site like this.  Sometimes too much knowledge can be dangerous!  I'll be sure to evaluate my thoughts for future mods (especially ones impacting the ability of the bike to run) with a more cautious mind.

Hopefully I'll have a chance to take a look at it this weekend.  Thanks for all the input.  I'll post here once it's back up-and-running.

[Hef]

I have the utmost respect for these guys who have the ability to do their own work on their Valks, but for me, I have found that it is often a big gap between reading about how to do it and doing it.
I also agree that the Valk is a pretty darn good bike as produced and I choose to keep it that way if possible. At my age, I am always reluctant to try something new unless I am absolutely sure there is a definite benefit. Just my two cents worth. Ride Safe. Hef

[Patrick]

Am I missing something?? The post states that the engine won't turn over and won't crank.. To me that means the starter is not spinning the engine.. Is that the case ???   It does appear that the poster means the engine cranks but won't start, is that the case?? These would be 2 different fixes..

[Ricky-D]

I recall it being stated on a past thread that connecting the electric fuel valve to the supply side of a coil is not recommended!

I guess a search might turn up that thread and the reasons behind that reasoning.

Myself, I think an electric gas shutoff valve is superfluous and redundant.  I've got a Pingel manual petcock.

I personally think attaching things to the electrical system harness is foolhardy especially so since there is already supplied a key activated switched power supply already there. Any additional electrical items need their own supply from their own fuse protected circuit that is controlled by it's own power supply relay.  To do less is courting failure and future system problems.

These particular kinds of "help me with this electrical problem" threads are very numerous which indicates that electrical shortcuts are not the way to go.

Jus sayin'

***

[Kaiser]

Am I missing something?? The post states that the engine won't turn over and won't crank.. To me that means the starter is not spinning the engine.. Is that the case ???   It does appear that the poster means the engine cranks but won't start, is that the case?? These would be 2 different fixes..

Sorry for not being clear.  The engine will crank (turn over), it just won't start.  The starter is turning the engine.

[John U.]

The fact that the starter spins doesn't eliminate the battery as the no-start cause. You can determine if fuel is getting to the carbs easily by opening a bowl drain screw to see if anything drains out.
I know it's a basic suggestion but where did you pick up power to the Dan-marc? If it remained on when the bike is turned off it could have drained the battery just enough not to start.
Lastly, another basic suggestion, if you aren't getting fuel to the carbs, are you sure the Pingle is turned on?

[Kaiser]

The fact that the starter spins doesn't eliminate the battery as the no-start cause. You can determine if fuel is getting to the carbs easily by opening a bowl drain screw to see if anything drains out.
I know it's a basic suggestion but where did you pick up power to the Dan-marc? If it remained on when the bike is turned off it could have drained the battery just enough not to start.
Lastly, another basic suggestion, if you aren't getting fuel to the carbs, are you sure the Pingle is turned on?

No problem covering the basics.  I got power for the Dan Marc via the black and white wire coming off of one of the coils.  I ran the ground to the front carb cross-over support rail (I'm sure that is not the proper name for it, but I do not know what is.  It is the chrome looking bar that goes across the bike and connects the two carb banks - where the PAIR valve used to be attached).

I'm sure the Pingel was turned on.  I even tried putting it on reserve just as a test, but that didn't work either.

I'll go the bowl drain screw route that you suggested when I get a chance to look at it (hopefully Saturday - if not before).

Thanks to all for the input.

[Garland]

Don't despair. I have broken, fixed, improved, and worsened my bike since I bought it. You have to learn from mistakes. Messing about with my bike has made a passable mechanic of me, and there is little I will shy away from now. These girls are pretty forgiving, really, and when they don't start it is usually a simple reason.

[Valker]

I occasionally work on my Valkyrie's electrical system, that is why I bought a complete wiring harness from eBay (just in case I let the smoke out sometime).

[rogerthat]

"I ran the ground to the front carb cross-over support rail "

Was that where the ground was attached originally? (or did you add the DanM?)  Those carbs are isolated from the engine block by rubber intake runners and attached to the top via the rubber runners and plastic air cleaner housing.  There's not much to ensure proper ground there if I'm not mistaken.  Anyone else set up a DanM that way?

[valkyriemc]

Run a test, connect one side of the danmarc to true ground the other to the positive batt term and get it going. Alligator jumper leads from rad shack, or something similar will do.

[Thunderbolt]

Try moving the ground to something that is grounded to the frame.  I'm glad you explained how you had it wired up.  I don't have the fuel shutoff, but I think the aux wiring if you are not using it for something else would be a better source for your battery and ground connections.  I used the aux leads to trigger a relay that powers up an auxilliary fuse panel.  That panel has connections for several 12V devices, like GPS,extra lights,air horns,etc.

[PhredValk]

Makes a good case for doing one mod at a time. If you do one thing and test the bike, you'll know which mod went wrong.
Fred.

[fordmano]

I would guess that the ground location you selected is not really a ground at all.
If you ran the ground wire all the way up to the front crossover support bar for the carbs then you should have enought wire to attach to one of the bolts that held in the smog equipment on the top of the motor.


For some of us we just don't have the resources or time to do only one upgrade at a time. In some instances it will take you so much longer to do one change at a time. What you mentioned as all the changes you made you would have had to pull the air box what maybe 3 times,,, No way buddy not for me. That would kill my big old meat hooks for hands. Every time you yank things off the bike that is just another chance of getting something wrong or breaking something. So see you can look at it either way, glass half full or glass half empty.

Sorry just saying!

[fudgie]

Shoulda just stayed with pingel only and left the electrical thingy out. 

[Kaiser]

Anyone else set up a DanM that way?

I may have misunderstood one of his old posts, but I'm pretty sure that MP wired his ground the same way (permission to correct if I'm wrong).  I read every post I could find about the Dan Marc and the consensus seems to be wiring the + to the black/white off of the coil because it is hooked into the bank-angle sensor.  I think most people wrote that they hooked the - up to one of the coil mounting bolts.  I'll move my ground to the coil mounting bolt when I get back to it.

I did not do one mod at a time for the exact reason previously stated - putting the bike back together and taking it apart three different times.  I figured I'd knock out all three of these mods at the same time seeing as how they are all pretty much in the exact same location.  However, the one-at-a-time approach is definitely the way to go if you have the time to do so for the very reason of isolating issues.

Fudgie - I very well may end up taking off the Dan Marc and just going with the Pingel.

I'm sure it is something simple.  Should be up and running this weekend (I hope).  Once it's back to running, I think I'll stick with the bling mods for a little while since I can still ride if I mess one of those up!

Once again - thanks to all for the input.

[melloyellow]

Kaiser,  Thanks for this thread.  I have been thinking about the numerous things I "should do" to my 98 standard.  That little voice keeps telling me however,  "why in the world would you tinker with something that runs like a dream?!"  A year ago I just wanted to get a 77 Goldwing running, and within no time at all it turned into a complete restoration.  I learned a lot, but this time I think I'll just stick to changing fluids, timing belts, adding CHROME and enjoying the ride!

[BonS]

Anyone else set up a DanM that way?

I read every post I could find about the Dan Marc and the consensus seems to be wiring the + to the black/white off of the coil because it is hooked into the bank-angle sensor.

I love having my electric fuel valve as a backup to my forgetfulness. However, I had to remove the valve from my coil due to a high speed miss that it caused. My thread about it is here http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,18768.0.html. The coil is not polarized by the way. Like others have said, it's way too easy to add too much fuel line length which in turn causes a kink and cuts off the fuel supply.

[Kaiser]

It was the wiring to the Dan Marc.

I used one of those p.o.s. Scotchlock connectors to tap into the black/white wire coming off the coil.  I took it off to double-check the connection, and sure enough the connector did not even break through the wire insulation of the Dan Marc wire.

I fixed that plus moved the ground to the coil mounting bolt.

Once I got everything back together, the bike fired right up.

Thanks to all for their input.  Another mystery solved. 

[Baloo]

Glad you found it! 

If you want to keep problems away when working on electrical circuits, throw away those Scotchlock connectors! They are crap!! If by chance, they work correctly when you just installed them, over time, they'll let moisture in the connection, will cause corrosion and eventually, lead to a head scratching problem. I always weld ALL the electrical connections that I make and insulate them with shrink tubing. Might take a few more minutes, but saves a whole lot of headaches!! 

[John U.]

+1 A bit of solder and some shrinkwrap can save a lot of iritation later and make your bike more reliable.