Petcock 101. Please help a newbie.

[Valk_ca]

Am in the process of tearing my new-to-me '98 Standard down and doing all the preventative and remedial work that keeps these bikes on the road for millions of worry-free miles. Got the bike home to Canada from Missouri, not much fuel in the tank, so we filled it, added Seafoam and ran the bike for a while to get the miracle fluid throughout the system. Turned the petcock to off and put her to bed for the night. In the morning I had that "OH NO! A LEAK!!" moment I've read about on this site. Turns out its gas. Petcock turned off but fuel leaking around the petcock.
I researched this site and found lots of info on how to remedy the situation. Seems the choices are:
1. rebuild OEM petcock and posssibly T more vac to the system to remedy the pulsating which seems to be the cause of the problem in the first place. But then I'd have more vac problems to remedy in the future, right?
2. switch to Pingel
3. remove diaphragm and replace with solid gasket and then shut down vac lines
4. cut out diaphragm completely and use outer edge of cut out as gasket

First question - Is this a petcock problem I have? Does it leak even with the fuel turned off? The bike won't run for long with the fuel turned off so I'm not convinced I have an actual petcock problem. And the fuel is leaking from more than just the weep hole. I'll try to attach pics (I'm a pic virgin on this site)


Second question - if I switch to non-vac system what is the the timeline from petcock turn-on to flooded piston(s)? Are we talking minutes , an hour or what? This is not a problem with my Wings as I am sitting on the tank and gravity is on my side. Had a diaphragm develop a pinhole on my '97 Wing but no hydrolock concerns because the fuel wasn't coming up and over on its own.

[Blackduck]

Bit hard to tell by the pic's but it could also be leaking from the O ring at the mounting nut.
With all manual valves whether Pingle or converted stock you have to remember to turn them off.
Of course you will only get a hydrolock if there is a problem with the carb needles and seats.
Personally I have no problem with the stock valve. If it is in good condition and installed correctly there is no problem.
I have been hydrolocked, found the cause of the petcock problem and still run the standard petcock.
Never found a reason for the carby to have flooded and it has not happened again.
It is more a case of what you are happy with and going with it.
Cheers Steve

[hubcapsc]

That's one nasty petcock! I'd get a new one or a Pingel (I like OEM petcocks)... it might rebuild and clean up,
but I hear hydro-lock is nothing compared to being on fire!...

-Mike

[lee]

First take it off and clean it up.
Next turn it to the reserve position, hold it up vertically and put a few drops of gas
in the stand pipe or the reserve hole and figure out where its leaking.
If its leaking from the drain hole you will need a cover set, to rebuild it.
If its leaking from the riveted flange you mite consider buying a new petcock.
If its leaking around the nut that screws onto the tank, a new screen and o-ring.

[MP]

Looks to me it may well be leaking at the tank junction, as it looks cruddy up way above the usual weep points.

My feeling is, get a new petcock, either a Pingal, or OEM.  A new OEM is about $100.  Which also includes a new o-ring and a new screen for the tank.  That way, you KNOW it is good.

MP

[X Ring]

According to Directline Parts, hdlparts.com, a replacment stock petcock is $111US with a MSRP of $148US plus shipping.  God only knows what it will cost in Canada.  The best US price I have found for a Pingel is $90US shipped from Eastern Performance http://www.easternperformance.com/products.php?product=Pingel-Hex-Chrome-90-Degree-Forward-Petcock-for-Harley.  After having my stock petcock fall out of the nut that holds it on the tank, I will never trust another stock petcock.  I've got Pingels on both my Valks plus I also have Dan Marc electronic fuel solenoids to shut the fuel off.  So, roughly for the same price or less of a new stock petcock, I have the reliability of a Pingel with the hydrolock protection of the Dan Marc.

Marty   

[bikerboy1951]

Another place to check is www.hondapartsline.com.  I checked the price on there and it is $105.85 and I believe about $7 shipping.  I have used both them and HDL and gotten good service from both.

Brad

[Ricky-D]

Very easy to think you have turned the gasoline "off" and still have a little gas wanting to continue to flow, all this with the stock Honda petcock.

It doesn't take but a drop or two every minute to cause a problem overnight.

So, don't be looking for a stream when a slow drip will suffice to do the damage!

**

[fudgie]

I vote #2. Get a Pingel or you will dick with it again a few years down the road.

[Valk_ca]

Is the Pingel 1311 CR a direct fit? Just close off the vac line coming from #6? I see this Pingel recommended by X-Ring on another current hydrolock thread.

http://www.easternperformance.com/products.php?product=Pingel-Hex-Chrome-90-Degree-Forward-Petcock-for-Harley

From all the hydrolock stories I'm already paranoid and am leaning toward the Pingel and an electric shut-off.

[X Ring]

Is the Pingel 1311 CR a direct fit? Just close off the vac line coming from #6? I see this Pingel recommended by X-Ring on another current hydrolock thread.

http://www.easternperformance.com/products.php?product=Pingel-Hex-Chrome-90-Degree-Forward-Petcock-for-Harley

From all the hydrolock stories I'm already paranoid and am leaning toward the Pingel and an electric shut-off.

That's it.  If you read look about 4 or 5 posts above, you'll see where I gave you the link this morning.

Marty

[Blackduck]

If you are going to fit an electric shutoff why bother fitting a Pingel?
Manualize the standard or just redress it, they work fine. Just make sure it aligned correctly when refitting.
Cheers Steve

[Big Rig]

OK Pingle question...

When you are filling up, what position on or off?

Will either effect the amount of fuel into the tank?

[Valk_ca]

[/quote]

That's it.  If you read look about 4 or 5 posts above, you'll see where I gave you the link this morning.

Marty
[/quote]

Got that Marty. Asked the same question on another hydrolock thread and got a different response.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,26029.0.html (reply #36 & 37)

Now I'm confused. Is the 1131 CR a non-vac product or does it have to be specifically a CH? The link is for a CR.

[GOOSE]

if you look at the pingle mfg. web site...... the non-vacuum valve for the valkyrie is number 1311CH.  the 1311CR may be somebody elses number for the same thing.  if you order direct from pingle, you will ask for valve # 1311CH (non-vaccum model).

[Valk_ca]

Thanks Goose. Guess I'll call Eastern to be sure. Pingel wants $105 while Eastern performance wants $90. Worth the call to Eastern.

[X Ring]

1311CR stands for Chrome Round body.  1311CH stands for Chrome Hex body.  They are the same manual petcocks.  Just the shape of the body is different.

Marty

[Valk_ca]

AHHHHH!!!! My German ancestors would ask if there's a 1131CS, as in Chrome SQUARE Body. One to match my head! 

Thanks for the clarification.

[X Ring]

You're Welcome.  You can't see the petcock so it really doesn't matter which one you get. 

Marty

[sugerbear]

when you compare prices between oem and pingle, are you taking into account manual vs vacuum?

of course the manual will be cheaper!

[Hook#3287]

If you are going to fit an electric shutoff why bother fitting a Pingel?
Manualize the standard or just redress it, they work fine. Just make sure it aligned correctly when refitting

I was wondering the same thing.  I have chrome engine hangers and want to keep the look with the OEM petcock.  If I install the electric shut off and keep (rebuild) the OEM petcock, that'll work, right?  I understand I'll have to rebuild the OEM again later, maybe.

[Chrisj CMA]

OK Pingle question...

When you are filling up, what position on or off?

Will either effect the amount of fuel into the tank?

seriously?

ok, if this is a real question.......no, the position of the fuel valve (petcock) cannot change the tank volume...there is no "reserve" tank to be filled or not to be filled

[Blackduck]

The main thing with using the standard petcock is to get the alignment right.
The selector shaft must be free in the chrome hanger, any binding will cause the valve to lift off it's seat allowing fuel to flow. Fuel can only flow in this situation if the valve is manualized or the diaphragm is not seating if still in vacuum mode.
Remember in a vacuum setup the diaphragm is closed by spring pressure, a holed vacuum diaphragm will not stop the spring from shutting the fuel off. It will reduce or stop completely the fuel flow when trying to run.
For a standard petcock to leak internally there has to be at least 2 faults when shut off.
If you turn off the petcock and the bike continues to run then check for selector stem binding.
Cheers Steve

[Valk_ca]

Haven't had time to take the tank off yet but I drained about 3 gallons out of the tank last night and now its stopped leaking. Sounds like a seal problem. Diaphragm may be OK. I know every time we started it before we began the tear down it wouldn't start or run with the petcock in the OFF position and it stalled if you turned the fuel off while it was running. That sounds normal. Still think I'm going to do something about the whole situation. Too paranoid. I've been stuck on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere once before and its not high on my list of redoes. Just still not sure which route. Maybe the electronic shutoff is all I need.

[Blackduck]

If the vacuum diaphragm ruptures while on the road and shuts your fuel off you can undo the 4 cover screws and shift the spring to the fuel side. This keeps the vacuum side open effectively making it a manual petcock.
Cheers Steve

[Valk_ca]

OK, here's where I'm at now. Changed the petcock to a Pingle. Decide I couldn't live with the stress of thinking the motor/starter might go BOOM every time I hit the starter. Will add the electric shutoff later.

Next question: I pulled all the plugs and 4 of them where wet! Possible reasons? Will the Pingle have solved this problem and I'm just getting too paranoid?

Bike is still on the lift and I haven't dared to hit the starter until its all reassembled.

[X Ring]

While you've got the plugs out, push the starter button and make sure you don't have any fuel accumulated in the cylinders.  That should answer your question if you had the double whammy of a failing petcock and stuck float.

Marty

[valkyriemc]

Just did the vacuum pingel 1311 CHV on my I/S today. Figured out a way to retain the chrome fascia and knob so it looks original. I also extended the Pingel pickup to equal the stock petcock height so the reserve is the same. Finally done with the stock fuel valves -been through two since 2000. No more potential drama when the start buton is hit, leaks or acting like its running out of gas. The only thing I would feel more comfortable with is some detents on the ping, but it is what it is.

[MP]

Just did the vacuum pingel 1311 CHV on my I/S today. Figured out a way to retain the chrome fascia and knob so it looks original. I also extended the Pingel pickup to equal the stock petcock height so the reserve is the same. Finally done with the stock valves -been through two since 2000. No more potential drama when the start buton is hit, leaks or acting like its running out of fuel. The only thing I would feel more comfortable with is some detents on the ping, but it is what it is.

If you have a vacuum Pingel, what is to stop, over time, the innards of that failing?

MP

[valkyriemc]

Any innards could fail. My two foul-ups were related to the petcock design re stem length and the selector ball not seating properly. I gave the Honda design a fair shake when I purchased a replacement for the original @ $116.31 in '05. Don't know the failure rate of the vacuum pingel. I may email them and ask. My available options were slim _I think I made the best -albetit expensive- choice.

[Blackduck]

Valkyriemc,
What was the problem with stem length? Just trying to compile an accurate list of actual confirmed failures with these valves.
The ball off the seat is usually caused by the selector side loading the valve stem when the valve has been removed and replaceds and not aligned correctly. For it to leak the diaphragm also needs to be off its seat. Unless the diaphragm is really damaged the most likely cause is the bleed orifice in the check valve is blocked, this holds the diaphragm in the run position.
Cheers Steve

[valkyriemc]

Blackduck; well I opened the current Honda P/C after removal and couldnt see anything noteworthy. The first petcock leaked, so it was replaced, don't recall any bad diaphram. Generally I think the design - the selector shaft length and the way its mounted agravates the seating/sealing of the ball. And since I was replacing it I didnt spend much time on it. Like I mentioned previously the symptom lately was the apearance of running out of fuel, but manipulating the selector from on to reserve and back, would start it flowing again. FWIW I was very aware of the selector position and in my case it didn't make any diff. All in all I'm glad its over with, rode the bike today, no runs, drip or errors...

P/S wish someone would set up a poll to see some actual fallure statistics. 

[Mildew]

Mine used to act like it was running out of fuel sometimes with the vacuum oem. Since I've made it manual, I had 0 problems with it.

[Valk_ca]

When will it end? Changed to a Pingel. No leaks. Yahoo!! BUT...when I reinstalled the tank I put about 3 gallons of gas into the tank and have been riding the bike the last few days. With the lower "ON" main tube I thought I'd ride until it hit Reserve and then fill it immediately so I'd know how much gas I had left when it hit Reserve. Was going to go for a longer ride after work today so I filled it up even though it hadn't yet hit Reserve. 5.1 GALLONS!? What gives? I thought the tank was only 5.3. Is the Pingel defective? Have any of you with Pingels experienced this? Is there a chance I have an Interstate tank on the bike? How would I tell? No Reserve makes me very nervous. I like to ride in places where you may not see another vehicle for extended periods. And I ain't carrying a gallon can along for insurance!

[chrise2469]

The pingel has a very small reserve, .5gal.  There was a post on modding the pingel for greater reserve but my search-fu is weak today, no pictures just a text link.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=907742
Depending where you fill the tank, you can squeeze a bit more than the 20L.  That gives you a bit more range.  Who knows if the fuel is temp corrected to 15c when they wrote the book 

[Ricky-D]

Maybe the Weights and Measures bureau need to visit that gas station!   

***

[valkyriemc]

Specifications: 1999 Valkyrie Interstate
 
Model: GL1500FT  
Engine Type: 1520cc liquid-cooled horizontally opposed six-cylinder  
Bore and Stroke: 71mm x 64mm  
Compression Ratio: 9.8:1  
Valve Train: SOHC: two-valves per cylinder  
Carburetion: Six 28mm diaphragm-type CV  
Ignition: Solid-state digital  
Transmission: Five-speed  
Final Drive: Shaft  
Suspension Front: 45mm inverted telescopic fork; 5.1 inches travel  
Rear: Dual shocks with five-position spring preload adjustability; 4.7 inches travel  
Brakes Front: Dual disc with twin-piston calipers  
Rear: Single disc
 
Tires Front: 150/80R-17  
Rear: 180/70R-16  
Wheelbase: 66.5 inches  
Seat Height: 28.7 inches  
Dry Weight: 771.0 pounds  
Fuel Capacity: 6.9 gallons, including 1.1-gallon reserve  
Colors: Black, Pearl Dark Green/Metallic Gray, Black/Red

 (My 2000 I/S manual shows; 6.87 gal with 1.06 reserve)