Police threaten man legally carring a handgun in Philly

[X Ring]

1.  Having a weapon visible is Level of Force whether you want to believe it or not.  An officer has a right and duty to protect himself and others from that Show of Force.

I wouldn't think that someone with "ILL INTENT" would be walking down the street with a firearm visible.   Happens all the time.
  

2.  We are talking about a nuance of the law the officer may NOT have been trained on.  To his credit after the subject was detained, the officer made calls to have the subject's claims researched.

The officer should KNOW whether open carry is allowed or not. And this in no way excuses his language.  Officers are trained by their departments and the academy they were sent to.  If they weren't trained in that particular section of law then they are not to be blamed for their lack of knowledge.

3.  You do understand that a felon is someone who has been convicted of a felony, don't you?   The circumstances taken into account were the subject was openly carrying a firearm.  That was the officer's Probable Cause for contacting the subject.

So EVERYONE with a gun IS a felon? Where does that logic come from?   You obviously missed where I was responding to the other poster stating the only circumstance taken into account by the officer was the subject was a felon

4.  Law Enforcement Officers place people in handcuffs for safety reasons while investigating situations.  It keeps the subject doing something like assaulting the officer (officer's safety) which
may result in the officer using force against the subject.

This reeks in so many ways.   You may not like it but that is the way it is.  I've put more people in handcuffs than I can remember.  Some were taken off at the station while others were removed on site after determining the person hadn't violated the law and wasn't a threat.

5.  Baseball bats and pocket knives are weapons, again, whether you want to believe it or not.  Spray paint can be used as a weapon because you can blind someone with it.  In Mississippi, and the vast majority of other states, the Justifiable Homicide Statute allows someone to protect themselves and/or others from death or serious bodily injury.  An officer drawing their weapon and aiming at someone while they challenge an obviously armed individual is allowed.  The subject does NOT have to draw first.

HMMMM.... Let Joe Blow homeowner draw down and kill someone weilding a can of spray paint and claim that lethal force was necessry.  I don't think that argument would get him very far.  It's called Totality of Circumstances.  The subject would have to be doing something other than just possession or carrying the spray paint such as using it in a menacing manner.  Spraying paint in someone's eyes can very easily blind them permanently.  THAT would fall under the circumstances I detailed earlier.

6.  The officer wasn't out of control.  A detention is NOT an arrest.  It is temporary while the officer investigates the situation.

If an officer is questioning you with the intent of using your answers against you. You are under arrest.   Interviewing someone is NOT an arrest.  Officers are allowed to interview to determine the circumstances of an incident.  This is called conducting an investigation.

7.  The days of Andy Taylor, Sheriff without a gun, disappeared in Newhall, CA in 1974.

  

Andy Taylor may be gone, but apparently Barney Fife is in Philly.  That is your opinion.

8.  If you saw a person openly carrying a weapon and you saw an officer that did NOT investigate the situation, you would be raising holy hell about the no good officer not doing his job.

WHY would I DEMAND that an officer detain and question someone that isn't BREAKING the law?

  THAT was a hypothetical statement.  It could be anything you might believe is against the law.

Marty

[BigAlOfMD]

If ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law, then it should go double for law enforcement personnel.

[stormrider]

Actually the one on the "ego" trip was the subject who was failing to obey the officer's instructions.  Police Use of Force is governed by the +1 Rule and the Reasonableness Rule as viewed from the officer's view, NOT yours.  For every level of force a subject uses, an officer is allowed to go one level higher to control the situation.  Any officer is going to draw their weapon before challenging you if they see you carrying a weapon as this individual was.  You should obey their commands.  Failure to do so increases your danger due to YOUR actions not the officer's.  You can deescalate the situation by doing what the officer says and not being confrontational.  You will be cuffed for your and the officer's safety.  Then you can calmly and rationally explain your side.  Trying to tell the officer your side while being issued commands will not help the situation.  The officer will view that as you attempting to distract them.

Marty    

So Marty, If it's legal, then suppose 5000 people decide to walk that street tomorrow with their legal gun in the open, is he gonna draw down on all of em? One at a time or in unison?

[Bama Red]

Unless the law has changed recently here in Tennessee (and I checked several resources which show it has not), open carry is legal ONLY if you possess a CCW permit.

[RoadKill]

If ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law, then it should go double for law enforcement personnel.

How much will your taxes go up if all LEO have to be lawyers before they put themselves in the  dangerous field of law enforcement ?  I think it would be GREAT if lawyers had to be cops first !  But you would not want to pay for it!

[Brad]

Questions and Answers on PA open carry


http://paopencarry.org/open-carry-questions-answers#17


Can I be charged with "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" if I open carry in PA?
Short answer: Yes, you could be charged with a number of violations by an unknowing LEO. BUT, the charges would not be applicable, per the statutes, for merely open carrying. Commonwealth v. Hawkins 1996 clearly states that open carry, in and of itself, lacking any actual threatening or illegal behavior on the part of the person open carrying, is not grounds for a "stop and ID" by police. As such, open carry can not be anything warranting a "stop and ID" or greater reaction such as detainment or arrest.

[X Ring]

Questions and Answers on PA open carry


http://paopencarry.org/open-carry-questions-answers#17


Can I be charged with "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" if I open carry in PA?
Short answer: Yes, you could be charged with a number of violations by an unknowing LEO. BUT, the charges would not be applicable, per the statutes, for merely open carrying. Commonwealth v. Hawkins 1996 clearly states that open carry, in and of itself, lacking any actual threatening or illegal behavior on the part of the person open carrying, is not grounds for a "stop and ID" by police. As such, open carry can not be anything warranting a "stop and ID" or greater reaction such as detainment or arrest.

But the question is, does that apply in a "First Class City" where the state statute requires you to have a concealed carry permit also?  In that case, I believe an officer would have the right to stop you to make sure.

Now, as far as the subject of the Philadelphia Police contact, he is being charged with "Disorderly Conduct" for his refusal to follow the Officer's Directions.  The funny thing is he is provided the proof of his guilt by putting his recording in the public domain.

The reason for the police contact is really immaterial in this case; although, a lot of members can't see past the open carry issue.  I have attempted several times to explain the whys and wherefores of the police actions but very few want to listen.  In fact, I have not engaged in any personal attacks but have been attacked by numerous members including the Administrator, who is supposed to be above that.  Carl, I am contacting Oz about this.

As everyone on this board knows, I always end my posts with my first name and do NOT hide behind my screen name.

For the record, my name is Martin Akers and I am a NRA Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Handgun, Shotgun and Tactical Shooting Instructor.  In addition, I have also been a PPCT Management Systems Defensive Tactics Instructor and a Monadnock Expandable Baton Instructor Trainer, which means I taught and certified prospective instructors.  The only Force Option I have not been certified to instruct is chemical restraints, i.e. Mace and or Pepper Spray.  I have written Use of Force Policies that have been adopted by the department I worked for after being approved by the organization's attorneys.  I have then taught that policy to the department's personnel and tested them on it.  I AM a Use of Force Instructor.

That is my last word on this subject.

Marty
 

[Titan]

I find it somewhat amusing and, at the same time, disgusting, to read all the crap posted by cop haters. Some people just like to argue and spew all the cop-hating rhetoric they can dream up while sitting in their easy chair "quoting" laws that they've never read and wouldn't know a law book if it hit 'em in the butt. When I read such garbage I mostly laugh and dismiss it thinking it's coming from somebody who's had their own run-ins with law enforcement and didn't like the outcome. It's also most likely that most cop haters wouldn't have the balls to be a police officer and couldn't get accepted to a police academy with backing from 10 senators.

You know, it makes no sense whatsoever to say that all cops are thugs with badges and all of them are on ego-fueled power trips. There's no doubt that we have bad cops here and there. There are also a few really low life people who ride motorcycles and you can bet that some of them have serious criminal records. But that's not a reason to paint all motorcycle riders with a wide brush and claim that all bikers are scum. There are bad preachers, insurance agents, boy scout leaders, paper carriers, and meter readers. There's bad people in about any job or profession that you can think of. But railing with stupid, uneducated rants about police officers all being bad shows nothing but your misinformed opinion and probably your background.

[ptgb]

Basically, Titan's whole message

Yep Titan, glad you said it (and that I didn't)... it's no different here than anywhere else... just gotta roll with it.

See, the ones with the badges represent the "gov-mint" that many so widely despise (and sometimes rightfully so, no matter who is in power).

To some here (a small, vocal, minority) the jack-booted thugs are hiding in the bushes just salivating at the prospect of kicking down their door to take their guns, search their cellphone, and to light your cigars with their copy of the English Common Law, Magna Carta, or whatever...  oh yeah, and doing so while you are making obscene wages and Cadillac benefits (damn unions).

But hell, at least we're not Harley riders, on motorcycle tires, who use the wrong kind of oil  

Seriously though, just a microcosm of the country in general. We aren't always going to see eye to eye... and some are just outright goofy, but that's all part of the highs and lows (what day was the high?)

Remember:

It sure is fun to have to make a split second decision that others have the luxury to mull, debate, or critique for days, months, or years...

Specifically, to this Philadelphia thing... my first post was simply "sigh". That meant there is plenty of "wrong" on both sides of this, I am not going to get into the minutia of it. Simply put, cop who should know the law+ jackass baiting the cops = fun fun fun on the VRCC!

P.S. - It's National Police Week

[X Ring]

Willow has contacted me apologizing for his choice of words.  I have accepted and withdrawn my complaint. 

Marty

[PAVALKER]

Questions and Answers on PA open carry


http://paopencarry.org/open-carry-questions-answers#17


Can I be charged with "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" if I open carry in PA?
Short answer: Yes, you could be charged with a number of violations by an unknowing LEO. BUT, the charges would not be applicable, per the statutes, for merely open carrying. Commonwealth v. Hawkins 1996 clearly states that open carry, in and of itself, lacking any actual threatening or illegal behavior on the part of the person open carrying, is not grounds for a "stop and ID" by police. As such, open carry can not be anything warranting a "stop and ID" or greater reaction such as detainment or arrest.

But the question is, does that apply in a "First Class City" where the state statute requires you to have a concealed carry permit also?  In that case, I believe an officer would have the right to stop you to make sure.

Using your logic, would an Officer then have probable cause to stop every single motor vehicle to make sure that it is legally registered, insured, and the operator is licensed?  I think not.... the officer needs to have real probable cause.  Kinda goes with the police stopping those appearing to be of Hispanic heritage and asking for their ID or Green Card.... can't happen without probable cause or involvement in something otherwise illegal.  Doing something "legally"... within the law is not probable cause.  An individual is entitled to the same rights of protection and safety as police, politicians and other public officials....

Now, as far as the subject of the Philadelphia Police contact, he is being charged with "Disorderly Conduct" for his refusal to follow the Officer's Directions.  The funny thing is he is provided the proof of his guilt by putting his recording in the public domain.

I assume that you are assuming he is being charged with "disorderly conduct" for those reasons.... but why wasn't he charged with that from the onset?

The reason for the police contact is really immaterial in this case; although, a lot of members can't see past the open carry issue.  I have attempted several times to explain the whys and wherefores of the police actions but very few want to listen.  In fact, I have not engaged in any personal attacks but have been attacked by numerous members including the Administrator, who is supposed to be above that.  Carl, I am contacting Oz about this.

As everyone on this board knows, I always end my posts with my first name and do NOT hide behind my screen name.

For the record, my name is Martin Akers and I am a NRA Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Handgun, Shotgun and Tactical Shooting Instructor.  In addition, I have also been a PPCT Management Systems Defensive Tactics Instructor and a Monadnock Expandable Baton Instructor Trainer, which means I taught and certified prospective instructors.  The only Force Option I have not been certified to instruct is chemical restraints, i.e. Mace and or Pepper Spray.  I have written Use of Force Policies that have been adopted by the department I worked for after being approved by the organization's attorneys.  I have then taught that policy to the department's personnel and tested them on it.  I AM a Use of Force Instructor.

That is my last word on this subject.

Marty
  

[Bama Red]

PTGB, my Brother , stay safe out there.

[ChromeDome]

I just wonder what the tone of this conversation would be if the cop had walked up to the suspect in a non-threating manner and asked, very politley, if there was any particular reason that he (the suspect) was carrying his gun in the open and the suspects response was shooting and killing the cop. It is much easier to debate, disect and second guess what the cop should have done in hindsight, unfortunetly that doesn't help the cop. Which pretty much holds true for the scenario as it actually happened.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[elraque]

I completely and utterly disagree.  If a Police Officer challenges you and issues instructions for you to NOT MOVE, GET DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, etc and you do not follow those instructions in a case like this where you are openly carrying a weapon, you are running the risk of the officer using Lethal Force against you BECAUSE you are not following his instructions and he can articulate a fear for his life/safety.  It does NOT matter what language he uses.  When this started the officer was NOT using foul language but due to the subject's failure to comply with the officer's instructions, the officer resorted to harsh language to impress upon the subject the seriousness of the circumstances.  The Sergeant was attempting to detain the subject for what he believed to be a violation of the law, in good faith.     

In my state, the subject's actions would have resulted in, at least, being charged with Disorderly Conduct and, more likely, being charged with Resisting Arrest. 

There is an old story of a Police Officer in the Northeast testifying in court.  The officer was on the stand and stated he responded to a burglar alarm at the business.  Upon his arrival, he alighted from his radio car, drew his service weapon and challenged the suspect stating if he did not drop his weapon, the officer would be forced to use deadly force.  The suspect stood up and said that wasn't what the officer said and he didn't know about lighting a car on fire but the officer told him, "Drop your s**t mother f****r or I'll kill you."  The Judge looked at the defendant and said, "Same thing." 

Marty

Free men don't kneel for the king's constables.

 We fought a war about that a couple of hundred years ago, more or less.

We wrote into the Constitution of this nation that the accused is innocent until proven guilty to prevent just this kind of abuse in the name of the government.

If I have done nothing wrong and am no threat to the "public servants" that the police claim to be I will allow them to shoot/tase me before I will kneel before them. I kneel before no man, and before only one God...

"Those who would give up their freedoms in exchange for security deserve neither, and usually lose both within a short time."

[elraque]

Unless the law has changed recently here in Tennessee (and I checked several resources which show it has not), open carry is legal ONLY if you possess a CCW permit.

So... let me get this right... The Constitution says that the "right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," but in Tennessee you need a CONCEALED firearms permit to OPENLY bear a firearm...

If I understand it, it doesn't make any sense at all. For a WIDE variety of reasons.

[Jess Tolbirt]

no thats not right,
Tn has a handgun carry permit, not a concealed handgun carry permit,,you can carry anywhere on your person you want to...concealed or not,,,

[elraque]

no thats not right,
Tn has a handgun carry permit, not a concealed handgun carry permit,,you can carry anywhere on your person you want to...concealed or not,,,

Thanks for the clarification.

I kneel before no man.

[3fan4life]

For the record, my name is Martin Akers and I am a NRA Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Handgun, Shotgun and Tactical Shooting Instructor.  In addition, I have also been a PPCT Management Systems Defensive Tactics Instructor and a Monadnock Expandable Baton Instructor Trainer, which means I taught and certified prospective instructors.  The only Force Option I have not been certified to instruct is chemical restraints, i.e. Mace and or Pepper Spray.  I have written Use of Force Policies that have been adopted by the department I worked for after being approved by the organization's attorneys.  I have then taught that policy to the department's personnel and tested them on it.  I AM a Use of Force Instructor.

And because of this you are looking at the issue with "Blinders" on.  You have taken the issue personally and cannot seem to admit that the officer handled the situation poorly.

Unfortunately the days of Andy Taylor are gone, and with them so has the idea of to "Protect and Serve".

Police departments everywhere have succumbed to a "Us vs Them" mentality. And because of this "Everyone" is seen as a perp. Yes there are a lot of scumbags out there but every citizen that an officer encounters shouldn't be treated like one.

A Good Cop is worth his weight in gold, but there are some wearing the uniform that shouldn't even be a "hall monitor".

Please allow me to borrow some words from RJ:

My daddy told me to always treat people the way I'd want them to treat me.

Try that being a Cop sometime.  It can be done if you have some patience, and can convince them you are trying to help them.

Had several show up at my retirement roasting, that said the way I treated them during an arrest, was what kept them out of be incarcerated in later years.   That gave me an ego big enough to pop an elephant on it's butt.

Way too many LEO's have forgotten or never learned this.

I've never been a cop but I did spend 20+ years in EMS and I learned that people usually respond in kind to how you treat them.

Generally, if you are respectful and nice to them they will be respectful and nice to you as well.

This is sometimes referred to as the "Golden Rule":

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

There are some people that are going to be a jackass no matter what you say or do, but as a whole you'll "run" into alot more of them if you "assume" that everyone is one.

I for one mourn the days when you could always count on a cop to be one of the "Good" guys.


 

[Bama Red]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Jess. Sometimes I say stuff and it doesn't come out like I meant for it to.

[Jess Tolbirt]

I didnt say it to belittle anyone,,just a FYI,, my license says across the top handgun carry permit...
that said,
if a cop comes up to me and tells me to put my hands up over my head, guess what i am going to do? I am going to listen to every word he says and do exactly what he tells me to do,,,this will keep him from letting the adrenalin take over his thoughts, might even keep him from busting a cap in my ass,,,,while i am face down on the ground, hands behind my head, i will tell him to pull my wallet and look at my permit,,,then after its all over with, if he is in the wrong i will have his butt on the frying pan,, but, if he treats me respectfully then i will return the same curiosity to him and he will say sorry for the trouble and i will shake his hand and go on about my business..
I have never had a problem with law enforcement  in all my 58 years,,,

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Most open carry folks carry recorders on them for this reason. They are confronted by cops telling them it is illegal to open carry, which its not, in most States. This is to help them against the cops word. I am pro open carry. The wife and I do open carry. I do not carry a recorder. I open carry 90% of the time. I also CC but will not go out of my way or wear certain attire to hide my firearm. It is not illegal and I am doing nothing wrong. Have had no confrontation in the year or 2 I have been doing it.


Another thing Ind said is a no knock warrent is also legal. If they have a warrent they can bust open your door unannounced. I am against this. Guess our 4A right is no longer valid. Hope someone fights this.

I agree with you on all accounts. I CC 90% of the time and open carry 10%. Mostly depends on where I'm at and what gun I'm carrying.

Indiana's no knock policy is wrong and dangerous. I can remember reading more than once of police breaking in the wrong door. Any homeowner under these circumstances would be justified if he opened fire in the belief that a criminal was breaking into his house. And I believe the law should support the homeowner in this case.

But now, an Indiana court has decided that Indiana citizens don't have the right to protect themselves from criminal cops who enter their homes illegally. Does this mean that when a gun toting nut job kicks in your door in the middle of the night you are required to ask them if they are cops before defending yourself?

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I completely and utterly disagree.  If a Police Officer challenges you and issues instructions for you to NOT MOVE, GET DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, etc and you do not follow those instructions in a case like this where you are openly carrying a weapon, you are running the risk of the officer using Lethal Force against you BECAUSE you are not following his instructions and he can articulate a fear for his life/safety.  It does NOT matter what language he uses.  When this started the officer was NOT using foul language but due to the subject's failure to comply with the officer's instructions, the officer resorted to harsh language to impress upon the subject the seriousness of the circumstances.  The Sergeant was attempting to detain the subject for what he believed to be a violation of the law, in good faith.     

In my state, the subject's actions would have resulted in, at least, being charged with Disorderly Conduct and, more likely, being charged with Resisting Arrest. 

There is an old story of a Police Officer in the Northeast testifying in court.  The officer was on the stand and stated he responded to a burglar alarm at the business.  Upon his arrival, he alighted from his radio car, drew his service weapon and challenged the suspect stating if he did not drop his weapon, the officer would be forced to use deadly force.  The suspect stood up and said that wasn't what the officer said and he didn't know about lighting a car on fire but the officer told him, "Drop your s**t mother f****r or I'll kill you."  The Judge looked at the defendant and said, "Same thing." 

Marty

Many Americans would chose death rather than being forced to get down on their knees. And the more law-abiding you are, the more likely you would be to chose death rather than being forced to kneel. We don't have to kneel to anyone in the US and that's how it should stay.

With all respect, you need to change any training which encourages LEO's to force people to kneel to them. If an officer told me to do that I would think he had stolen the uniform and wasn't really a cop.

[POPS 57]

On one of the web sites i go to there is cop on there. At the bottom of his page it says. Treat everyone with respect. But have a plan to kill them. 

[Sludge]

John Stossel has gotten a hold of this it seems.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun

[Chrisj CMA]

about a month ago I saw a guy open carry in FL, it kinda took me by surprise. I haven't seen anyone open carry since I lived in ORYGUN.  if only we could were capes notifiying the LEOs we're good guys too  

FL is NOT an open carry state.  There is an exception, that being if you are on the way to hunt or shoot, but Im thinking the gun has to be unloaded, so what good is that( I may be wrong on the loaded vs unloaded part) Im gonna look it up again

I looked at the statute.....says nothing about the guns being unloaded.....FL does not allow open carry when on foot unless hunting on private or approved grounds or while traveling to or from hunting/shooting.  I do that but I dont get out of my truck while open carring just to never have to explain.  

Today I was taking the recylce bin out, I had two open carry holsters on but no weapons in them........a cop crusied by right then and gave me the death stare....had he seen weapons, I do believe he wudda stopped and asked.......which is ok, but I just dont need that converstion at all

[Westernbiker]

about a month ago I saw a guy open carry in FL, it kinda took me by surprise. I haven't seen anyone open carry since I lived in ORYGUN.  if only we could were capes notifiying the LEOs we're good guys too  

FL is NOT an open carry state.  There is an exception, that being if you are on the way to hunt or shoot, but Im thinking the gun has to be unloaded, so what good is that( I may be wrong on the loaded vs unloaded part) Im gonna look it up again

I looked at the statute.....says nothing about the guns being unloaded.....FL does not allow open carry when on foot unless hunting on private or approved grounds or while traveling to or from hunting/shooting.  I do that but I dont get out of my truck while open carring just to never have to explain.  

Today I was taking the recylce bin out, I had two open carry holsters on but no weapons in them........a cop crusied by right then and gave me the death stare....had he seen weapons, I do believe he wudda stopped and asked.......which is ok, but I just dont need that converstion at all

He will be watching you now Chris, he knows where you live! LOL!

[Chrisj CMA]

about a month ago I saw a guy open carry in FL, it kinda took me by surprise. I haven't seen anyone open carry since I lived in ORYGUN.  if only we could were capes notifiying the LEOs we're good guys too  

FL is NOT an open carry state.  There is an exception, that being if you are on the way to hunt or shoot, but Im thinking the gun has to be unloaded, so what good is that( I may be wrong on the loaded vs unloaded part) Im gonna look it up again

I looked at the statute.....says nothing about the guns being unloaded.....FL does not allow open carry when on foot unless hunting on private or approved grounds or while traveling to or from hunting/shooting.  I do that but I dont get out of my truck while open carring just to never have to explain.  

Today I was taking the recylce bin out, I had two open carry holsters on but no weapons in them........a cop crusied by right then and gave me the death stare....had he seen weapons, I do believe he wudda stopped and asked.......which is ok, but I just dont need that converstion at all

He will be watching you now Chris, he knows where you live! LOL!

I thought of that......however, it was a city cop.  The city is broke.  They are disbanding the police force and hiring more county sherrifs.........they wont be around much longer to watch poor little ol me