So I'm at the Wal-Mart tonight.....

[fudgie]

Interesting stuff. .  .  Oddly, I find myself agreeing with people I usually don’t agree with and conversely, disagreeing with some I usually do.
Anyway, if I’m reading your postings correctly fudgie, you’re saying in Indiana you can ‘open carry’ in a vehicle WITHOUT possessing a CPL license? I never heard of that before. In every State I know of – including Michigan - carrying a loaded gun, within reach, anywhere in a vehicle is considered “concealed.”  So, if you don’t posses a CPL (CCW) and have the gun loaded and within reach, you’d be in serious trouble.
The last Attorney General in Michigan (Mike Cox; a Pro-Gun Rights man) ruled (confirmed) the definition of “concealed carrying in a vehicle.”  He cleared it all up and issued an opinion the passenger area of the entire vehicle is “concealed” and falls under the CPL laws. What that means is; as a CPL holder in Michigan I can literally leave my pistol lying on the dashboard of my Yukon while I’m driving if I chose to. Since a motorcycle is considered a “motorized vehicle” I can, as a result of the opinion, now ‘open carry’ on one as well.
Michigan has always – at least in my adult life – has had ‘open carry’ on the books. Again, there’s places I would, but out shopping? What would be the advantages?  Certainly you don’t gain any defensive advantage from a bad guy who as out to do harm. He can mark you but you won’t know who he is until you feel the bullet exploding in your back; right in the center of the bulleyes you created by wearing your rig where it’s visible.
Please don’t misunderstand any of this. It is YOUR RIGHT to carry open if you chose. Just like I can throw my Glock on my dash as I drive in Michigan or strap it on my waist when I go to Walmart, but why would I? 

You can have a gun in your vehicle if its 'locked' away such as going to the range or just purchased one. You do need a lisc to carry one, vehicle or not. Transported the stated places is good. You also dont need a lisc in your home or property.
I carry everywhere. Why? Cause Im not psychic and have no idea when bad things will happen. Do you? I live in a safe town. 1 murder a year. Lot of robberies, some armed.  Remember the Lane Bryant in Ill a few years ago in a upscale part of town? 4-5 women dead and no suspect caught. Accidents happen and no one knows when. Same for crime. 2 weeks ago a College professor was killed and wife almost died due to a home invasion, during the day. Last I knew college prof never live in a bad part of town. I see alot of stuff in my job and sometimes its scary when you have no one to back you up. I do carry a knife (seat belt cutter 
) in the front of my pants on my belt in aretention holster. We work in very close quarters. Its my and my partners 1 'form' of protection if needed. As far as a advantage. I have done alot of reading over the years before I open carried. No reported evidence of someone directly being a target or having their gun taken by purly open carring. You know who says that? Only pro CC'ers. Think to yourself. Are you gonna rob a armed citizen or a non armed one?  Attackers cover 20' in less then 3 sec. Can you bend over and draw from your boot proficiently or from your hip? You are carring items in your hand, and a bg is coming at you. Can you lift up/unzip your coat and fire in less then that? Or is a unobstructed firearm easier to use? 

[KW]

Good points 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I'm for all forms of carry. Open carry or concealed, my opinion is that the more armed citizens we have to safer we all are.

If I open carry it's in a left-hand thumb break holster or a slide holster. The slide holster has no form of retention but it's great on the range or in the woods because it will hold nearly any of my handguns. Whether a 1911, a . medium 22, a small .22 or .380 or even a .357 revolver.

Personally, I don't see someone trying to grab a handgun being much of an issue. It would be a different world for an LEO but the chances of someone deciding to grab it in the "ten items or less" line at walmart are pretty slim.

On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I shopped anywhere when I wasn't armed. Mostly it's just because I think my gun is less likely to fall into criminal hands when it's on my person than when it's in the parking lot. And, if I'm on the scooter then I'm for sure not going to want to lock it in a saddle bag in the parking lot where everyone can see what I'm doing before I go in.

As a great author once said.
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” - Robert Heinlein

[MAD6Gun]

 I don't and wont open carry. Mostly because of the attention it gets.

 Not long ago a guy was in a zoo in Evansville IN. He was open carrying. Several people complained. He was talked to and he copped an attitude. The cops were called. When they told him to leave he got vocal. He was escorted out. Now if he had been carrying concealed no one would have known.
 
There are too many people that don't like guns and would feel much safer if they were all melted down. With that being said. Why make people like that nervous.
 
I was in Circuit City many years ago. When I walked in there was a sign stating "no Firearms allowed". I was carrying,concealed. Didn't care. They would never know I had one on me. Got what I needed,left and no one was the wiser. Now if someone had seen it the worst they could have done was asked me to leave.

 Indiana does not require training to carry a gun. I think they should. I have seen guys in a local indoor range that could not hit the target at 7 yards. Jeez one guy hit the floor, the wall and the holder before he got the target. If these are the type of people carrying. God help us.

 I have been around guns all my life. My father taught me how to shoot and how to properly handle a gun. I also am a NRA home firearm safety instructor. My father and I will be teaching  two classes coming up in Jan and Feb next year.  I hope we have a good turnout.

         Remember. "Shoot safely and keep em in the ten ring....."

[Jabba]

I was in Circuit City many years ago. When I walked in there was a sign stating "no Firearms allowed". I was carrying,concealed. Didn't care. They would never know I had one on me. Got what I needed,left and no one was the wiser.

I would have asked to see a manager, told them why I would no longer frequent their store, and left.  Then I would have gone home, and sent them a few e-mails.  And emailed 20,000 of my closest friends and asked that they support gun friendly vendors as well.

I defend their right to ban guns from their property, but I do so with my right to refuse to patronize their business.

As much as Starbucks annoy's me they got THAT one right.  When they refused to ban firearms from their businesses as a corporate police despite pressure from their Liberal cohorts.  Good for them.

Jabba

[solo1]

Mark and I will be teaching firearm safety classes with the hope that some of the people that carry will do so safely.  I've had discussions with our police chief, and the one before him.  Both of them are extremely uneasy about granting the ok to carry to many that apply for a license. However, if the criteria  for an Indiana license is met, they , the chiefs, must comply.

In my over 60 years of being in the shooting sports I've encountered many, many, people that have no idea of what they're doing when handling firearms. Indiana grants lifetime licenses with no training of any kind required. That's probably why some states don't recognise Indiana's permits.

I get very nervous if I see open carry by civilians. I don't open carry EVER!   That's a helluva statement coming from me, a NRA Life Endowment member.  IMHO, open carry smacks of "In your Face".  I'm reminded of the time that we were conducting a bb gun shooting class to young children at the local police range. One of the instructors (a gung ho arsehole)was carrying openly. The parents and the children were very uneasy.

I prefer paraphrasing Teddy Roosevelt's  saying  "Speak softly and Carry a Big Stick (concealed)"

[DarkMeister]

"the more armed citizens we have to safer we all are"

That thought makes me feel so safe, I could just shiver with "safeness". Almost as safe as this one:
"Indiana grants lifetime licenses with no training of any kind required."

"I get very nervous if I see open carry by civilians"

Ditto. Is it for deterrent? For show? I don't get it. The only time I open-carried was because a job required it. First thing I was told was to avoid talking about the firearm, don't let the curious wannabes make it a focus of discussion. Not easy. I, at least, didn't enjoy being gawked at. Whatcha gonna kill in a WalMart?

If I ever make it to Inzane, where armed-to-the-teeth boys party-hardy and just might have a bad day, I'll borrow my son-in-law's latest acquisition. Just in case of...I dunno. Zombies or such. Not sure it will fit in the saddlebag assembled:

[flcjr]

Fudgie,

   you might want to rethink your love of paddle holsters they are the worst for gun retension as they are easily ripped from your side with the side arm. You might get the opinion of them from some law enforcement or military I think most would agree. I like them for at the range but not for carry just not sucure enough. Just my two cents worth. I open carry and sometimes cc 

I watched a few videos of folks trying to get firearms out of retention & paddle holsters. Quite funny.  Problem is that I dont wear a belt often. If I'm out in the barn or in the field its easy to take it off and put it up for later. My Bianchi is actually a bitch to put on and take off. This is straight up and down. Side to side would even harder. Same for Kits fobus. If you do not pull straight out, its not coming out to easily. We've played before. 

I was referring to the whole holster being ripped from your side not the gun comeing out the holster. they are alot easier than you think to pull off of you from behind

[flcjr]

MT. must be one of the most gun friendly places no permit to carry open needed ever. no permit to buy or carry in your car. the only reason you need a permit is to carry concealed with in city limits. If your out of town you can cc without a permit.

[KW]

My old Arsenal Sergeant and retired Gunny used to tell me all the time; "Handguns are just for using to make it to the real guns!"

[The Anvil]

I would have asked to see a manager, told them why I would no longer frequent their store, and left.  Then I would have gone home, and sent them a few e-mails.  And emailed 20,000 of my closest friends and asked that they support gun friendly vendors as well.

I defend their right to ban guns from their property, but I do so with my right to refuse to patronize their business.

Well, by waging something of a war on their right you really don't support it at all. Hey, do what you want but just be real about it.

[Jabba]

Well, by waging something of a war on their right you really don't support it at all. Hey, do what you want but just be real about it.[/b]

I can defend someones RIGHT to do something without agreeing with what they are doing.  I defend a persons RIGHT to desecrate the flag.  But I really want to punch them for doing so.  I defend property owners rights to allow smoking on their property, such as in a restaurant... but I hate being in a restaurant that allows smoking. 

You see, I can separate my FEELINGS from what I consider to be someone else's RIGHTS. 

That's what makes me different than most people.  Most people allow their FEELINGS about something to dictate what they think is RIGHT, and tend to projects them onto other people's RIGHTS. 

Just because I don't LIKE something doesn't make it WRONG, and that's what we have here.  It's their RIGHT to ban guns from THEIR property.  I disagree with that CHOICE, and would therefore boycott their establishment because of said CHOICE, all the while defending their RIGHT to make that CHOICE.

It's what separates me from the mass of other conservatives... 

Jabba

[solo1]

Jabba and Mark T.

[The Anvil]

Well, by waging something of a war on their right you really don't support it at all. Hey, do what you want but just be real about it.[/b]

I can defend someones RIGHT to do something without agreeing with what they are doing.  I defend a persons RIGHT to desecrate the flag.  But I really want to punch them for doing so.  I defend property owners rights to allow smoking on their property, such as in a restaurant... but I hate being in a restaurant that allows smoking. 

You see, I can separate my FEELINGS from what I consider to be someone else's RIGHTS. 

That's what makes me different than most people.  Most people allow their FEELINGS about something to dictate what they think is RIGHT, and tend to projects them onto other people's RIGHTS. 

Just because I don't LIKE something doesn't make it WRONG, and that's what we have here.  It's their RIGHT to ban guns from THEIR property.  I disagree with that CHOICE, and would therefore boycott their establishment because of said CHOICE, all the while defending their RIGHT to make that CHOICE.

It's what separates me from the mass of other conservatives... 

Jabba

But Jabba, if you go home and wage an email campaign against them you are anything but "supporting" their right. You're not even tolerating it if you won't patronize them. Boycotts are protests AGAINST something. You're not really "supporting" it, you just have no power to actually do anything about it and no respect for their choice. Not the same thing.

That's all fine. You're well within your rights to not patronize them if you feel that way. I have refused to patronize retailers for the same reason. But don't be disingenuous about it.

[Serk]

I feel the same as Jabba, the thing is, I support their LEGAL right to do what they want on their property. I wouldn't want a law banning a private business from stopping guns on THEIR property. But at the same time, I would work hard through other avenues to convince them that they're wrong.

Thus, I support their LEGAL right to do what they want on their own property, but I don't support it as a smart business decision.

[Jabba]

But Jabba, if you go home and wage an email campaign against them you are anything but "supporting" their right. You're not even tolerating it if you won't patronize them. Boycotts are protests AGAINST something. You're not really "supporting" it, you just have no power to actually do anything about it and no respect for their choice. Not the same thing.

That's all fine. You're well within your rights to not patronize them if you feel that way. I have refused to patronize retailers for the same reason. But don't be disingenuous about it.

There is NOTHING disingenuous about it.  I defend their RIGHT to make policy concerning their property.  I disagree with that CHOICE. 

I am willing to wage a boycott, and or email campaign against that CHOICE.  I however, believe they have the RIGHT to make that choice for THEIR property.

I respect the RIGHT to choose, but do NOT respect their choice.

What's so hard to understand about that?

I am a Libertarian, and that to me means that everyone has the right to do as they see fit as long as that choice does not infringe on another persons rights.  There will be those on this board that claim they have the RIGHT to carry in a public place.  I agree.  But a privately owned business is NOT a public place.  Neither is a restaurant, supermarket, mall... etc.  My rights stop where theirs start.  It's their property.  They have the right to say I am not allowed to carry a handgun in their store.  I have the RIGHT to peacefully protest that choice.

Jabba

[The Anvil]

But Jabba, if you go home and wage an email campaign against them you are anything but "supporting" their right. You're not even tolerating it if you won't patronize them. Boycotts are protests AGAINST something. You're not really "supporting" it, you just have no power to actually do anything about it and no respect for their choice. Not the same thing.

That's all fine. You're well within your rights to not patronize them if you feel that way. I have refused to patronize retailers for the same reason. But don't be disingenuous about it.

There is NOTHING disingenuous about it.  I defend their RIGHT to make policy concerning their property.  I disagree with that CHOICE. 

I am willing to wage a boycott, and or email campaign against that CHOICE.  I however, believe they have the RIGHT to make that choice for THEIR property.

I respect the RIGHT to choose, but do NOT respect their choice.

What's so hard to understand about that?

I am a Libertarian, and that to me means that everyone has the right to do as they see fit as long as that choice does not infringe on another persons rights.  There will be those on this board that claim they have the RIGHT to carry in a public place.  I agree.  But a privately owned business is NOT a public place.  Neither is a restaurant, supermarket, mall... etc.  My rights stop where theirs start.  It's their property.  They have the right to say I am not allowed to carry a handgun in their store.  I have the RIGHT to peacefully protest that choice.

Jabba

I guess I have a problem with your wording. I still don't really see what you do as "supporting it". Do you acknowledge it? Recognize it? Yes. But I don't really think support is the right word.

[Rocketman]

But Jabba, if you go home and wage an email campaign against them you are anything but "supporting" their right. You're not even tolerating it if you won't patronize them. Boycotts are protests AGAINST something. You're not really "supporting" it, you just have no power to actually do anything about it and no respect for their choice. Not the same thing.

That's all fine. You're well within your rights to not patronize them if you feel that way. I have refused to patronize retailers for the same reason. But don't be disingenuous about it.

There is NOTHING disingenuous about it.  I defend their RIGHT to make policy concerning their property.  I disagree with that CHOICE. 

I am willing to wage a boycott, and or email campaign against that CHOICE.  I however, believe they have the RIGHT to make that choice for THEIR property.

I respect the RIGHT to choose, but do NOT respect their choice.

What's so hard to understand about that?

I am a Libertarian, and that to me means that everyone has the right to do as they see fit as long as that choice does not infringe on another persons rights.  There will be those on this board that claim they have the RIGHT to carry in a public place.  I agree.  But a privately owned business is NOT a public place.  Neither is a restaurant, supermarket, mall... etc.  My rights stop where theirs start.  It's their property.  They have the right to say I am not allowed to carry a handgun in their store.  I have the RIGHT to peacefully protest that choice.

Jabba

I guess I have a problem with your wording. I still don't really see what you do as "supporting it". Do you acknowledge it? Recognize it? Yes. But I don't really think support is the right word.

You're picking out the wrong part of the sentence to argue semantics with.  You're arguing about support vs. acknowledgement, when the real difference is right vs. choice.  You can support the right to choose, without supporting the choice that was made.  I can support your right to choose any Valkyrie color, while at the same time, knowing for an absolute FACT that if you choose anything other than the greens or the blues that you are a moron that is a waste of air.  I will fight to the death for your right to choose any color, but I will refuse to ride with you until you come to your senses and make the right choice.
[The reader is left to filter out the exaggeration for himself.  If he chooses incorrectly...  Oh crap, there I go again.  Never mind.  Ya'll are intelligent.  Figure it out for yourselves.]

Mark

[The Anvil]

Never mind.  Ya'll are intelligent. 

You're in the wrong forum again. 

What I just don't get is why so many people seem to take the choice not to allow firearms into their establishment as a personal slight. I have a friend who is very nervous around guns and though she's never actually said this to me she would not like it if I had one on me when I came over. I don't take this personally though. 

[Jabba]

Personal relationships are different.

It's about the erosion of our rights, the perception that there are no wolves out with the sheep, and the general pussification of America. 

My idea of a utopian America is one where everyone allowed guns, and about 50% of people carried.  An armed populace is a polite populace IMO.  I think if thugs knew that there was half of everyone around them armed, crime would drop like a stone.   Again... my OPINION.  I am not nervous around guns.  I am also a realist.  I realize that there would be SOME accidental injuries and deaths.  I also believe it's naive to try to protect people from themselves. 

I'd like to see drugs legalized, and prescriptions available to people without prescriptions.  Doctors should be advisors, just like accountants and lawyers.  Bt we're REQUIRED to submit to the medical "system" and pay doctors for office visits just to get a drug that we've been taking for 10 years.  lest I digress...

I acknowledge your point Mr. Anvil.  I don't however agree with it.

Seriously, I appreciate the civil discourse int his thread.  I enjoy it when it can be polite. 

Jabba

[DarkMeister]

Despite the polite discourse, I think you guys could use some Group Therapy: