Slipping clutch in 4th, then lever only goes 1/2 way

[tivoklr]

97 valk standard here, not stock. Arlen Ness hydraulic master cylinders brake and clutch. 41k miles.

I am having an issue where at the end of the riding season last fall, my bike started to slip in 4th after about 15 minutes of riding. Anywhere from 3-5k RPM, under heavy acceleration. I had put in Rotella T 15-40 before this happened, but I just checked the bottle and it was not energy conserving. When it started slipping I drained the oil and put in 50 bucks worth of real 4 stroke motorcycle oil and a new filter. Made it worse.

A week or so ago I thought I'd dry to ride it again and see if it magically got better over the winter. It didn't. In fact, now it's not just slipping, the lever wouldn't go in more than 2/3 of the way after a 20 min ride, the second half of that ride the clutch held enough for me to do about 55 and got me back home. It was slipping in all gears at this point.

Fast forward to today. Clutch is out and on my workbench but I don't freakin get the clutch system at all and really don't know what to look for as a culprit. I'm struggling to find a thread detailing this. The basket has some scratches in the area near the huge nut holding it in place, but no evidence of clutch rivets in the basket or in the case. Puzzling.

Im also getting a little confused looking at the fiche http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148070&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3466
as to what parts 9, 10, 15, 16 and 22 are about, are some of them deprecated as I only seem to have 15, 22 and 9.

Any advice, even just a link to a thread you know has solid info on what I do with this clutch now that it's out, would be hugely appreciated!

[Valker]

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,41369.0.html
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,30038.0.html

[tivoklr]

I've read those threads, I guess I am dumber than the average wrench. I have replaced the starter idler gear, but that just involved following instructions. This seems to require real understanding of how a clutch "works".

What would be the signs of a worn out clutch, visually? Or should I just say the hell with it and take the clutch to the dealer, or one of my two local motorcycle mechanics and let them disassemble/reassemble?

Additionally, this wear on this piece doesn't look normal to me:

[Valker]

A clutch is worn out when the friction discs are thinner than specs or destroyed. If the steel discs are discolored, it was way overheated. The springs have a minimum length. Have you, indeed, checked the rivets on the damper plate?

[tivoklr]

If the steel discs are discolored, it was way overheated. The springs have a minimum length. Have you, indeed, checked the rivets on the damper plate?

I have not disassembled the clutch beyond this point.



I don't see any bluing on the steel discs. I don't have a press so I'm going to have to hit Home Depot to get the stuff I need to make a tool to compress the spring to remove the snap ring. I guess I've made as much progress as I can tonight.

[PSUbag]

Just happened to me too. Bet $ that you've got a couple broken rivets on the damper plate. I caught mine early enough that all I needed to buy was the damper plate and a new gasket. (That I'm STILL waiting for, Track N Trail Honda, of State College, Pa.    )

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

 Blotar has just had the same thing happen to his valk. It was the rivets and his clutch lever acted the same way as your. He took his to the honda shop after he pulled the assembly and for a small fee they broke it down and re-assembled it for him. Might send him a PM.

[Ricky-D]

Normally, the reason the clutch lever travel will be reduced, due to damper plate troubles is:

The failing component parts of the damper plate jam the friction and metal plates apart causing the total clutch pack to become thicker thereby causing a more restricted travel of the pressure plate and manifested as less allowable travel of the clutch lever.

Looking at your clutch pack (what I can see) my first impression is that the clutch pack is Ok.

I'd suggest looking at the master cylinder on the handlebars.

A clogged or blocked relief orifice will cause all of the symptoms you describe.

***

[Slammer]

When mine went out a local independent mechanic drilled out the brass rivits on my new pressure plate and replaced them with SS rivits. So far so good!

Slammer

[tivoklr]

Looking at your clutch pack (what I can see) my first impression is that the clutch pack is Ok.

This was my thought after looking at failed damper plates on the board. Mine looks (externally) to be fine. The entire circumference of the clutch looks the same.

I'd suggest looking at the master cylinder on the handlebars.

A clogged or blocked relief orifice will cause all of the symptoms you describe.

Yes, the intermittent nature of them leads me to believe this is the case as well. I think I'll reassemble it tonight and flush the whole master and slave system, ride it and see. If I had a dealer that was closer than an hour away I'd take it to them and just have them rip it apart, check it and reassemble if ok, but in the time I'd waste doing that I can reassemble the bike and flush the system. The slipping and or clutch lever not going all the way in is when the bike is hot.

Wishing I'd started there, but hell, it's all good.

[tivoklr]

Can anyone comment on the weird indentation 2/3 of the way down this part? I can't figure out what it's proper name is, nor if the indentation should be there. Not the spiral.


I'm really starting to believe my problem is in the handlebar control or line, the intermittent nature of the problem adds to the plausibility. I have had an issue with the MC on the brake side in the past.

I am kicking myself for not starting there, but it slipped clutch like my passenger vehicles have when the clutch has worn out, so given my incredibly small sample size (1 or 2) my inital assessment was probably wrong.

*not a mechanic*

[Grumpy]

The clutch release pin you are wondering about looks normal to me. Have had a few of them out, all have the recess in the center.

[tivoklr]

Thanks for the confirmation. I know what I'm doing tonight (undoing what I did yesterday)

[PSUbag]

I think you're making a mistake by NOT checking the damper plate. Mine looked ok from the outside too. I'd hate to see you have to tear it all back apart again. Just my opinion...

[Ricky-D]

I agree, having gone this far, it would be a mistake to not look at the clutch plates before buttoning things up.

You can't discount the possibility you are on the correct course.

I think it was Momz that had a good write up on this.

***

[tivoklr]

I agree with both of you. I've come this far why not rip more apart? Plus it'll give me the opportunity to get a new set of snap ring pliers, which I desperately need.

I will admit to having had MC issues with both brake and clutch controls from Ness on this bike in the past, which is why when things looked good externally, I was eager to jump back to that as a cause, out of laziness.

Thanks and I'll report back when it's apart, which should be sometime Wednesday.

[Highbinder]

I'm having the same problem with my 97 right now, it only slips after the bike has warm up...I too think its in the master cylinder return, the fluid heats up, expanses and puts pressure on the clutch spring...I haven't done the repair yet but I was told if it continues to do it, to hold the lever down and open the bleeder, if the lever goes down then its in the hydraulic system, if it remains the same its the damper plate....real interested in what you find out....

[tivoklr]

Follow up here:

I declined to disassemble the clutch pack and reinstalled it, as externally it looked fine and I don't have a press...

Upon reassembly, I flushed the hydraulic fluid from the slave/master from the bottom up. I also replaced the mc piston in the mc. I also replaced the dust seal in the clutch case.

It's been 250 miles now and I'm writing this off as bad fluid/worn out master cylinder piston. The fluid was nasty. It hadn't been changed in 4-5 yrs.

Shoulda started there but meh, at least it works.

[Gear Jammer]

Follow up here:

I declined to disassemble the clutch pack and reinstalled it, as externally it looked fine and I don't have a press...

Upon reassembly, I flushed the hydraulic fluid from the slave/master from the bottom up. I also replaced the mc piston in the mc. I also replaced the dust seal in the clutch case.

It's been 250 miles now and I'm writing this off as bad fluid/worn out master cylinder piston. The fluid was nasty. It hadn't been changed in 4-5 yrs.

Shoulda started there but meh, at least it works.

I found the same problem when I did mine.  Trying to save a penny, and spent way more than a dollars worth of time.   

[tivoklr]

This is how I overfix everything.

[MOODY]

Had same problem, Mine was clutch master cyclinder, Replaced by dealer and all is good again

[TOOC]

My brothers Valkyrie (34kMls) developed a problem making it difficult to select neutral and the bike was creeping while idling in first gear. The clutch was not fully disengaging with the level pulled.  I bled the clutch in every known manner with only a small improvement.
I decided to push the master piston further down its cylinder by a combination of bending the lever and extending the pushrod to the master piston. I tried to ensure that there was still a minimum amount of free travel in the lever. The modification fixed the gear change problem but on a 5ml run the free travel disappeared and the lever would not pull to within 0.5 in of the grip. The clutch began to slip. It took me a while to figure that the master cylinder was acting like a hydraulic jack.  It was not allowing fluid to flow back from the slave. I had not allowed for enough free travel in the master piston. It was not returning to a rest position to allow the fluid to leak back from the slave. I achieved more free travel by filing away a small layer off the heel of the lever that controls its rest position. It has been functioning perfect for a few 5k runs since.

[Ricky-D]

Arlen Ness components replacing stock Honda items.

A real improvement and with bragging rights to boot!

That is, if you don't mind having to rework them and still be unsure of success.

Eventually the realization that Honda does it best will surface.

You can secure genuine Honda components from Pinwall on Ebay.

Used, but still better than any aftermarket replacement.

This is a good object lesson for those who contemplate making unnecessary change-outs to essential Honda components.

And,,, calling it an upgrade.

There's the IRONY !!!!!!

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