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Jeff K
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« on: July 08, 2012, 05:15:37 PM » |
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I pulled my final drive apart. Needed a new rear tire so it was time to do some maintenance. Splines looked greasy and good Drive shaft cup was greasy and good... but...   The magic holes are clear... but no gear oil in the cup at all.  I have never seen wear like this. Thoughts? |
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 06:37:55 PM » |
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It's hard to see, it sort of looks grimy and blurry...  The splines look like they're still there under the grime, especially to the right where its not blurry... Does final drive oil spurt out the magic holes if you hold the final drive with the pinion pointed down and shake it a little?  -Mike |
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RP#62
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 07:00:30 PM » |
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Mine wears the same way. That spring on the front of the shaft keeps tension on the shaft against the end of the pinion shaft and it frets. And yes, if the holes are clear, oil will run out if you turn the pinion cup so that the hole is down - at least it does on both of mine anyway. I left one laying flat on the workbench once and oil ran out of the pinion cup and all over the bench.
-RP
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Jeff K
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 07:39:21 PM » |
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The splines looked fine but the end of the drive shaft and cup were red and rusty. never seen that before. And again, there was no sign of gear lube at all. |
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sandy
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 09:39:37 PM » |
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The red rusty stuff is normal. Clean it all up and relube with moly grease. Valvoline Durablend is a 3% moly content which Honda calls for. I use that on both ends of the shaft and it can also be used on the wheel splines. Normally I use Bel Ray waterproof grease there but I have digressed to the Durablend with no problems. Lube the pinion cup as if the drive unit oil doesn't come back in the cup. If it doesn't, you still won't have anything to worry about. I don't rely on that function.
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 03:50:26 AM » |
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And again, there was no sign of gear lube at all. Magic holes must be clogged with grime -Mike |
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 07:03:00 AM » |
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My thought is that it was not necessary to remove the pinion cup for inspection nor cleaning.
Just adding more and unnecessary tension to the pinion and ring gear assembly from loosening and then tightening down.
You know! What they say. If it ain't broken, keep fixing it until .......
***
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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F6MoRider
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 02:29:21 PM » |
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The lack of liquid oil in the cup combined with the stuff visible in the image leads me to think the holes might be plugged. Looks almost like moly paste was used. It's also possible the level of oil in the pumpkin was low and wasn't enough to flow through the cup. I'd clean it, grease the shaft and refill the pumpkin to the correct level.
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VRCC #4086
2000 Valk Standard dressed with matching Interstate Bags and the Hondaline shield.
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Jeff K
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 05:06:39 PM » |
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The lack of liquid oil in the cup combined with the stuff visible in the image leads me to think the holes might be plugged. Looks almost like moly paste was used. It's also possible the level of oil in the pumpkin was low and wasn't enough to flow through the cup. I'd clean it, grease the shaft and refill the pumpkin to the correct level.
No, as stated, both holes were clear. The oil in the case is up to proper level. The Grease in the cup is moly grease, not "grime" or moly paste. It's the same thing I've been using for the last 130,000 miles. I've just never seen rusty crud on the shaft before. |
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Jeff K
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 05:12:34 PM » |
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My thought is that it was not necessary to remove the pinion cup for inspection nor cleaning.
Just adding more and unnecessary tension to the pinion and ring gear assembly from loosening and then tightening down.
You know! What they say. If it ain't broken, keep fixing it until .......
***
The nut holds the pinion cup to the shaft, it bottoms out on the inner race of the bearing, and it bottoms on a shoulder on the shaft. There is no tension involved, this is not a crush situation. Removing the cup is an easy way to be sure everything is cleaned up, including the pinion seal. This isn't my first time in a final drive. Just the first time I found rust on the shaft like this. |
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 08:00:07 AM » |
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My thought is that it was not necessary to remove the pinion cup for inspection nor cleaning.
Just adding more and unnecessary tension to the pinion and ring gear assembly from loosening and then tightening down.
You know! What they say. If it ain't broken, keep fixing it until .......
***
The nut holds the pinion cup to the shaft, it bottoms out on the inner race of the bearing, and it bottoms on a shoulder on the shaft. There is no tension involved, this is not a crush situation. Removing the cup is an easy way to be sure everything is cleaned up, including the pinion seal. This isn't my first time in a final drive. Just the first time I found rust on the shaft like this. In both cases you are incorrect. *** |
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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longrider
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 10:11:50 AM » |
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I've had mine look similar to yours the first time I removed mine many years ago. I think some of the moly grease that is used is high in moly content and dries out a bit. I have always mixed wheel bearing grease half and half with moly and have never seen it since, as it does not dry out any more. Just my opinion.
warren
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Jeff K
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 03:17:07 PM » |
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My thought is that it was not necessary to remove the pinion cup for inspection nor cleaning.
Just adding more and unnecessary tension to the pinion and ring gear assembly from loosening and then tightening down.
You know! What they say. If it ain't broken, keep fixing it until .......
***
The nut holds the pinion cup to the shaft, it bottoms out on the inner race of the bearing, and it bottoms on a shoulder on the shaft. There is no tension involved, this is not a crush situation. Removing the cup is an easy way to be sure everything is cleaned up, including the pinion seal. This isn't my first time in a final drive. Just the first time I found rust on the shaft like this. In both cases you are incorrect. *** Nope, I am correct. The nut holds an assembly together nothing more. The bearing is shimmed to adjust gear preload. But the nut does nothing more than hold the assembly together. It is torqued to 80 ft/lbs not to a preload requirement.   Oddly enough this pinion had the same wear on it that mine does, and it's magic holes are open too. No sign of gear oil in it's "grime" either So I guess it's normal and I just never noticed it. |
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« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 03:21:46 PM by Jeff K »
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Jeff K
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 03:26:03 PM » |
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Come to think of it. If they wanted to pull lube up into the cup they should have bored and rifled the pinion shaft. That would have put oil right where it is lacking... on the rust spot.  |
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 04:18:59 AM » |
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Come to think of it. If they wanted to pull lube up into the cup they should have bored and rifled the pinion shaft. That would have put oil right where it is lacking... on the rust spot. The guys who made this patent for the idea didn't think so.... http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~hubcap/pinionCupHoles.txtYou assert that the holes were clear and the fluid level was correct. I can't even see the holes under the "grime" in your picture... fluid flows freely into my cup, and the cups of others... I like reading your posts and am not trying to be a jerk... -Mike "it comes natural  " |
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Blackduck
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 05:47:29 AM » |
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A nice long winded speil on lubricating holes, pity it is for a 4 wheel vehicle drive and only relates to internal lube, not external lube as claimed for the Valkyrie drive hub.
I think the holes in the Valk hub are more for pressure relief in the hub when it heats up so as to not force the seal out of the hub.
A good dose of good grease in the hub an there will be no problems.
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2001 Standard, 78 Goldwing, VRCC 21411
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Jeff K
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 06:38:32 AM » |
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Come to think of it. If they wanted to pull lube up into the cup they should have bored and rifled the pinion shaft. That would have put oil right where it is lacking... on the rust spot. The guys who made this patent for the idea didn't think so.... http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~hubcap/pinionCupHoles.txtYou assert that the holes were clear and the fluid level was correct. I can't even see the holes under the "grime" in your picture... fluid flows freely into my cup, and the cups of others... I like reading your posts and am not trying to be a jerk... -Mike "it comes natural " I read your text. I searched the reference material. It appears that this patent is for the lubrication of the pinion shaft bearings, and the operation of a oil slinger impeller to lube the pinion seal in a final drive differential for a car. It never mentions anything about oil passing out of the final drive and into the pinion cup. What am I missing? Since motive is hard to determine in my posts, let me assure you that I too am not trying to be a jerk. And I realize that it is hard to see the holes in the picture. But I assure you they were clear. Neither one had any grease in them, on either drive. http://www.google.com/patents/US4677871?printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false |
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 07:07:31 AM » |
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let me assure you that I too am not trying to be a jerk.You never seemed like one, but I kept after you about the "grime" and the "does it spurt out when you hold it with the cup pointing down" questions, and didn't want to alienate you (we reserve the other board for that )... I fail to understand how fluid would not flow freely through unclogged holes...  -Mike
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 12:27:23 PM » |
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The whole thing in a nutshell is:
The oil level in the pumpkin does not allow for it to be "pumped" by the pinion cup.
And, of course, if you turn the pumpkin upside down, oil will flow out the holes.
***
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 12:35:25 PM » |
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The oil level in the pumpkin does not allow for it to be "pumped" by the pinion cup.
Final drive oil lubricates my pinion cup. See picture...
-Mike
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 02:46:28 PM » |
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I saw the pictures!
Just indicates you have overfilled the pumpkin with lubricant.
Most don't but some do.
The proof is in the pictures.
***
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 03:26:21 PM » |
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Just indicates you have overfilled the pumpkin with lubricant.Actually, I put in just the right amount, with care. Any other wild guesses? -Mike
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Blackduck
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 04:09:00 PM » |
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I have trouble seeing how the oil actually gets into the final drive hub in normal use.
Looking at the pics in JeffK's post the small diameter of the hub is smaller than the bearing inner race so the oil will flow back through the bearing and not into the drive hub when the bike is not moving.
When moving centrifugal spin off will prevent oil entering the holes.
Not having had a final drive apart can anyone tell me if there is a drain back or supply hole in the final drive housing allowing oil into the hub side of the bearing or does all oil pass through the bearing?
Cheers Steve
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2001 Standard, 78 Goldwing, VRCC 21411
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 04:42:28 PM » |
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I too can't see how oil will migrate thru the 'magic holes' in the cup, unless the cup is left loose.. I've never had rear drive oil in the cup, even on the first removal.. Mine is apart now for cleaning/greasing..I just grease everything and go,, but,, I certainly don't put on the miles that some of you fellas do..
I hope you can get the driveshaft back in the joint,, I can't and I've never had a problem before.. This bugger is fighting me all the way..
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Jeff K
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2012, 05:18:15 PM » |
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I have trouble seeing how the oil actually gets into the final drive hub in normal use.
Looking at the pics in JeffK's post the small diameter of the hub is smaller than the bearing inner race so the oil will flow back through the bearing and not into the drive hub when the bike is not moving.
When moving centrifugal spin off will prevent oil entering the holes.
Not having had a final drive apart can anyone tell me if there is a drain back or supply hole in the final drive housing allowing oil into the hub side of the bearing or does all oil pass through the bearing?
Cheers Steve
Through the bearing |
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Jeff K
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2012, 06:28:05 PM » |
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What ever you do... make sure the magic holes are good and clear! The retaining nut covers up 50% of the holes If the lube is gear oil, why does the manual tell you to pack the splines with grease? Why does the manual not say a word about keeping the holes clear?  |
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2012, 06:49:08 PM » |
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If the lube is gear oil, why does the manual tell you to pack the splines with grease?
The manual sez to pack 2oz of moly grease in the pinion cup. I smear "a little" grease in there on assembly, never weighed it to see how much 2oz really is, maybe I will when I change my tire this weekend... Why does the manual refer to the seal as an "oil seal"? -Mike |
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Jeff K
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2012, 07:36:36 PM » |
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If the lube is gear oil, why does the manual tell you to pack the splines with grease?
The manual sez to pack 2oz of moly grease in the pinion cup. I smear "a little" grease in there on assembly, never weighed it to see how much 2oz really is, maybe I will when I change my tire this weekend... Why does the manual refer to the seal as an "oil seal"? -Mike Actually it says pack with 2 grams, .08 oz of grease "Why does the manual refer to the seal as an "oil seal" Good question, they tell you to pack grease behind the "oil seal". |
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BonS
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2012, 08:03:21 PM » |
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I think you're both right. .08 oz is a very small amount of grease. I dole out 2 grams of Honda 60% moly grease on a gram scale and it is an incredibly small amount. I believe that it's there for two reasons: It avoids a dry socket while the rear end's hypoid oil begins to circulate into the pinion cup and the moly solids don't wash away so they stay put and coat the spline surfaces. Any more than this small amount can lead to plugging the oil transfer holes and lead to inadequate cooling/lubrication. I haven't had any wear or rust issues so far.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 08:13:16 PM by BonS »
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Valkpilot
Member
Posts: 2151
What does the data say?
Corinth, Texas
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2012, 09:37:28 PM » |
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I have trouble seeing how the oil actually gets into the final drive hub in normal use.
Looking at the pics in JeffK's post the small diameter of the hub is smaller than the bearing inner race so the oil will flow back through the bearing and not into the drive hub when the bike is not moving.
When moving centrifugal spin off will prevent oil entering the holes.
Not having had a final drive apart can anyone tell me if there is a drain back or supply hole in the final drive housing allowing oil into the hub side of the bearing or does all oil pass through the bearing?
Cheers Steve
I too can't see how oil will migrate thru the 'magic holes' in the cup, unless the cup is left loose.. I've never had rear drive oil in the cup, even on the first removal.. Mine is apart now for cleaning/greasing..I just grease everything and go,, but,, I certainly don't put on the miles that some of you fellas do..
I hope you can get the driveshaft back in the joint,, I can't and I've never had a problem before.. This bugger is fighting me all the way..
In this thread, ( http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,20177.0.html) the lube mechanism was well explained by Daniel Meyer and there are quality pictures that show how the oil mist available in the final drive during operation can be picked up and returned by the specially machined holes in the pinion cup. |
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VRCC #19757 IBA #44686 1998 Black Standard 2007 Goldwing   |
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16789
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2012, 04:15:23 AM » |
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Actually it says pack with 2 grams, .08 oz of grease
Right, of course... I was even reading from the manual when I typed that.
I always cut-and-paste URLs to keep from inserting booboos, can't
cut and paste from the manual...
-Mike
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2012, 08:19:39 AM » |
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Well, I spoke too quick.. I try not to do that, but I did..
Heres the story.. Maybe someone can post post some good pictures[I'm too dumb to do that].. Maybe there are some in Daniels write-up..
When the cup is removed and cleaned you can then see a relief cut in one magic hole that is against the bearing.. The other hole has a 90ยบ relief hole to the other magic hole.. So the rear drive oil can flow in and out of the cup.. Interesting..
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2012, 08:48:11 AM » |
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With part being interchangeable between certain different model bikes (Valkyrie/Goldwing) it is entirely possible that what everyone is talking about (holes for lubrication) may not be applicable to the Valkyrie but then entirely correct for the Goldwing.
Regarding the part: It's seemingly investment cast so the holes remain, regardless of application. If, on the other hand the holes were machined then I would say, Honda will not spend the bucks to machine holes that are not necessary, which then would equal a different part number for the Valkyrie specific part.
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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