Drive Shaft and Pinion cup failure....

[fudgie]

I pulled mine last week for my spring maintenance. It looked good for having 16k on it. Slightly dry but nothing to be concerned about. All my times I have pulled it I have never had any fd oil in there. Now when I lay the pumkin on the garage floor it does pour out of the cup. I clean it and add my valvoline water proof moly grease. All has been good in the 65k miles I have done this stuff to my bike. 77k on her now and all looks good.

[gordonv]

Thanks Chrisj CMA, you ROCK.....  thanks for bailing a guy out of trouble.....  I'm going to have a spare drive shaft and pinion cup around as a spare from NOW on,  btw my friends that live close by, we have 5 valks btw us, a driveshaft and pinion cup will be nice to have around....

You know, with others around who could also benefit from having some spare parts around, I would suggest the Yoke, rear end, alternator and starter. Since no one needs one, wait till you find them at a good price, and it happens, before you buy it. You don't need to buy them all yourself, just have the group split it.

Jabba,
What I find strange is why 2 bikes would go at the same time, after doing this kind of service mulitple times in the past?

Was it like the 3rd time for yours, and the 1st for Squealy, or maybe something was done that damaged the oil seal?

Chrisj,
You mentioned that you have 100K miles on your seal, and maybe how many services has it seen, 10 or less?


Are people dry fitting the seal to the drive shaft, or a little lube on it?

[Jabba]

You know, with others around who could also benefit from having some spare parts around, I would suggest the Yoke, rear end, alternator and starter. Since no one needs one, wait till you find them at a good price, and it happens, before you buy it. You don't need to buy them all yourself, just have the group split it.

Jabba,
What I find strange is why 2 bikes would go at the same time, after doing this kind of service mulitple times in the past?

Was it like the 3rd time for yours, and the 1st for Squealy, or maybe something was done that damaged the oil seal?

Chrisj,
You mentioned that you have 100K miles on your seal, and maybe how many services has it seen, 10 or less?


Are people dry fitting the seal to the drive shaft, or a little lube on it?

I meant to buy a shaft, seal and pinion cup and put it on the shelf... and just brain farted it.  It got winter, and I started deer hunting and pfffft gone!

I have had oil in those joints when I disassemble every other time.  We'll see what the IS has, but I am not optimistic I guess.  I think this is the 4th time I have had the rear end off my Standard.  I have had the rear end off the IS at LEAST 2 times.  This one coming will be the 3rd.

I have done both regarding the seal.  I have dry fitted it, and I have lubed it.  This time, there was some moly lube on the shaft where the seal mates.

Jabba

[jimmytee]

Ok,, when I tore mine apart a month ago or so it appeared to have moly grease on it and was in good shape. This was the first time I had pulled mine apart. I put it back together,  following the Clymer manual instructions, which included replacing the oil seal on that drive shaft. Mine didn't look bad either, but the manual instructed that it was necessary. I have to conclude that the seal is also crucial in keeping water out as much as it is for keeping grease/oil in. Is that not the reason for replacing the O-rings around the splines?

[Chrisj CMA]

Thanks Chrisj CMA, you ROCK.....  thanks for bailing a guy out of trouble.....  I'm going to have a spare drive shaft and pinion cup around as a spare from NOW on,  btw my friends that live close by, we have 5 valks btw us, a driveshaft and pinion cup will be nice to have around....

You know, with others around who could also benefit from having some spare parts around, I would suggest the Yoke, rear end, alternator and starter. Since no one needs one, wait till you find them at a good price, and it happens, before you buy it. You don't need to buy them all yourself, just have the group split it.

Jabba,
What I find strange is why 2 bikes would go at the same time, after doing this kind of service mulitple times in the past?

Was it like the 3rd time for yours, and the 1st for Squealy, or maybe something was done that damaged the oil seal?

Chrisj,
You mentioned that you have 100K miles on your seal, and maybe how many services has it seen, 10 or less?


Are people dry fitting the seal to the drive shaft, or a little lube on it?

You can see if you watched my slide show how much grease I put on the drive shaft splines.  I used up all my honda moly paste for that purpose (since its really just a soft grease anyway) I make sure the mating surface of the pinion cup to the oil seal is dry and the seal is dry and clean.  I make sure as it slides in that it goes in straight and clean.  Thats another reason for NOT installing the drive shaft and final drive seperatly as you have no clue if that oil seal got shoved off its perch or bent up.

That oil seal (even a new one) doesnt fit real tight to the cup, in fact, I often wondered why no grease ever comes out, but I suppose it fits how its supposed to because it works.

My current oil seal has 35K miles on it now and has 3 service intervals (should have been 2 but I had a flat) and I looked at it and put it right back together without changing the grease since it was only like a couple thousand miles.

The condition and fit of the front boot is crucial BTW...check it often

[Ricky-D]

I feel you're relying on faulty premise.

Gear oil is supposed to get pumped up there and provide the lube...

This has been discussed in length and has never been any factual information buttressing the assumption.

Now you see some proof that (self lube) is not the design nor the intention.

However, if you overfill your rear drive with lube, some little self lubrication can occur, has been shown.

***

[Mallett]

Jabba, nice & wet like I like it....my only concern is it looks like the shaft is wearing on the pinion cup bolt....could the snap ring not be doing its job??? I have 5500 mile on her since the last service.

[Valkpilot]

I feel you're relying on faulty premise.

Gear oil is supposed to get pumped up there and provide the lube...

This has been discussed in length and has never been any factual information buttressing the assumption.


***

On this, we are destined to always disagree.  

There has been much evidence, both direct and circumstantial, presented that is convincing relative to oil being available for pickup by the pinion holes and migration to the pinion cup.  

"Pump" is a a misnomer and the debate shouldn't hinge on it.

[Jabba]

I feel you're relying on faulty premise.

Gear oil is supposed to get pumped up there and provide the lube...

This has been discussed in length and has never been any factual information buttressing the assumption.

Now you see some proof that (self lube) is not the design nor the intention.

However, if you overfill your rear drive with lube, some little self lubrication can occur, has been shown.

***

Ricky-D, you know I respect your opinion.  Probably more so than a lot of other guys on here... but you and I agree about that weird U-Joint vibration, which is gone on my IS by the way after replacing the worn U-Joint.

If self lubrication isn't the intent, what are the holes and passages in the pinion cup for?  One seems to be obviously intended to scrape oil off the oil seal and move it into the pinion cup, while the other seems to have a relief cut to allow the oil to return. 

If it's NOT to move oil... what's it for?

Jabba

[Jabba]

Side note... both Squealy and I overfilled by about 1.5 OZ last night.

We measured the gear oil into the final drive, and it was almost exactly right... then we put the bike on the side stand (which is NOT what the manual says to do) and added another 1.5 OZ of gear oil in order to make it ALMOST come out the fill hole while on the side stand.

We're both going to tear back down in a month or so... and see what everything looks like.

Jabba

[Ricky-D]

I'm really not in disagreement about the holes in the cup, it seems to me to be a logical assumption.

And the pics that Mallett posted sure would make it appear so! The idea of oil migration that is.

Maybe it's just that Honda stated the capacity of the drive too conservative and so manual lube is needed.

There sure have been a lot of pictures of terrible looking pinion cups and drive shafts also.

It sure would be nice to simply introduce a few extra ounces of lube to the drive and forget about it.

This issue has been discussed thoroughly all the way back to the beginning of this forum, and the conversation has not wavered.  It still remains a mystery.

***

[Patrick]

As I wrote in a similar post about a year or so ago, I removed the cup and had a good look. It appears that oil should migrate to the cup. But, it never has on mine. When I stuck it back together I made sure everything was nice and clean, greased both shaft and cup, and added maybe an ounce of gear oil. I'll see what it looks like in a couple years.

[quexpress]

I feel you're relying on faulty premise.

Gear oil is supposed to get pumped up there and provide the lube...

This has been discussed in length and has never been any factual information buttressing the assumption.

Now you see some proof that (self lube) is not the design nor the intention.

However, if you overfill your rear drive with lube, some little self lubrication can occur, has been shown.

***

We are on the same page about these holes. This has been discussed MANY times on the old tech board ... the assumption is probable ... but has never been proven as far as I know.
In the past 10 years, I have never seen any final drive oil on the splines of the drive shaft of my Valk.

[F6MoRider]

Has anyone engaged Honda or tried to engage them for a more detailed or purposeful explanation? Just wondering.

[Gary]

FWIW - My last rear end maint on my IS was the first time I actually noticed the Bel-Ray red in and somewhat coming out of the cup. I noticed it while the final drive unit was sitting upright but at an angle on some newspaper. The shaft didn't pop right out, probably the toughest time I've had to remove to-date. So it may have been caused by the jostling around? In any event, I thought to myself, "Self, I guess this answers the million dollar weep holes question/debate".  ???

Side note: the final drive was not over filled.

Sorry, no pic's as my then torn latex gloved hands were a bit mucked up with the moly grease still on the shaft from the prior lube job (a bit over 13k prior). I usually try to do the maint around 8-10k but had just completed a 4,500 plus round trip so I was concerned about seeing the insides. I've been using a tube of Sta-lube grease for CV Joints that I picked up several years ago that's got a moly blend. Nothing else was readily available at the time. I've had a brand new can of Vavoline but still have some left of the old. I put a liberal coat of the grease along the cup splines leaving the holes visibly clear, on the pinion spline end of the shaft, a light coating along the shaft and at the splines at the u-joint end. I've yet to remove or visibly inspect the u-joint.  

Between my standard and my IS I've probably done at least 5 or more jobs using this method. So far so good.

Still using up an old tube of the Honda Moly Paste for the flange splines.  

[Gavin_Sons]

Took mine apart tonight and found no damage. Splines were covered in wet grease. Slapped some more moly on them and put it all back together. Ill pull it apart again this fall and check again.

[BonS]

I'm becoming convinced that it can take only one wiping of the spline cup where gunk/grease is pressed into the oil transfer holes to clog them. From then on lubrication of the splines relies on whatever is put there by the assembler. Probing the holes with a pick or Q-tip may only serve to push the gunk deeper.
A spurt of air through the holes is the most reliable method of getting them open and should be performed every time. You've got nothing to lose.

[Gary]

Probing the holes with a pick or Q-tip may only serve to push the gunk deeper.
A spurt of air through the holes is the most reliable method of getting them open and should be performed every time. You've got nothing to lose.

You must have been looking over my shoulder while I was probing and picking...  ???

So wouldn't your method be spurting the gunk deeper?

I've never taken the pinion cup off. I thought someone mentioned needing to use an impact wrench so I've left that on for a potential pinion cup replacement down the line if needed.

[Daddie O]

Seeing as I just bought my bike, and I have no service records, I'm thinking it would be wise to take'er down to the Honda Dealership and get the splines lubed.  Aside from me changing the oil and spark plugs, what other maintenance would you suggest at 17k miles.  Sorry for the hijack.

[Disco]

...I'm thinking it would be wise to take'er down to the Honda Dealership and get the splines lubed.

If you have the setup at home, it would be wiser for you to do it yourself, using the proper supplies, and while following the proper reassembly procedure.  There is no guarantee the dealer will do it properly - especially the reassembly. 

[pancho]

While it is obvious that under some conditions... oil level/ambient temperature/internal temperature,, oil will migrate from the final drive to the pinion cup,,, you have to remember that with the seal in place the pinion cup is part of a closed system with the final drive, with a single common vent on the top of the final drive. The holes are necessary to keep pressure equalized in all parts of the system if for nothing else. It appears that is is necessary to insure that the final drive vent is kept clear so that final drive oil expansion will not cause the seals to leak or pop out when the internal temperature rises. Honda recommends grease (a specific amount) for lubrication of the drive shaft splines  at both ends.

 Final drive oil in the pinion cup???? while it may save a situation where the shaft was not properly lubricated, I do not think it is ever supposed to be relied on for lubrication.

[MP]

While it is obvious that under some conditions... oil level/ambient temperature/internal temperature,, oil will migrate from the final drive to the pinion cup,,, you have to remember that with the seal in place the pinion cup is part of a closed system with the final drive, with a single common vent on the top of the final drive. The holes are necessary to keep pressure equalized in all parts of the system if for nothing else. It appears that is is necessary to insure that the final drive vent is kept clear so that final drive oil expansion will not cause the seals to leak or pop out when the internal temperature rises. Honda recommends grease (a specific amount) for lubrication of the drive shaft splines  at both ends.

 Final drive oil in the pinion cup???? while it may save a situation where the shaft was not properly lubricated, I do not think it is ever supposed to be relied on for lubrication.

If only for venting, why is one hole straight, and one angled?  Venting would not require that.

[BonS]

Probing the holes with a pick or Q-tip may only serve to push the gunk deeper.
A spurt of air through the holes is the most reliable method of getting them open and should be performed every time. You've got nothing to lose.

You must have been looking over my shoulder while I was probing and picking...  ???

So wouldn't your method be spurting the gunk deeper?

I've never taken the pinion cup off. I thought someone mentioned needing to use an impact wrench so I've left that on for a potential pinion cup replacement down the line if needed.

Yes it does push the gunk deeper and out of the holes and into other moving parts where it will be broken up as the gears and bearings go round-n-round. Better than leaving it the oil transfer holes to plug things up.

[BobB]

It's funny, I have a drive shaft and spline cup that looks just like the pictures above.  At Inzane XII last year I attended Daniel's tech session dealing with this issue and added an inspection to my things to do list over this past winter.  From Eureka Springs I rode east to Robbinsville NC to also ride for a few days in the Smokies.  I'm now 1000 miles from home and just starting my return trip when I hear a single clunk in the rear as I apply the throttle.  From the information gained in the tech session I know exactly what this is.  The clunks continue, as I baby the throttle, for about 250 miles.  The clunks turned into a rattle and the Valk completely stopped in Nashville TN. 

I had the bike transported to Howard's Honda (1st time AMA Roadside Assistance was used) and told the service manager what to look for.  But they went through their standard diagnostic process and took more time than needed.  That cost me an extra day in Nashville due to the parts delivery cutoff time.  Eventually, I got home and this last winter I reinspected the spline.  The dealer had greased the cup and everything looked good.  I reassembled it, greasing the cup with water resistant grease that is used for outboard motors.  I do not have the technical info available. 

To grease or not to grease, that is the question.  I remain uncertain.  Honda's pickup and splash design of oil from the pumpkin certainly has its drawbacks.  A low oil level or plugged hole will cause a failure.  My parts have light rust on them so I don't know when this lubrication mechanism failed. 
However greasing the cup will certainly plug holes and override original design.  I greased and intend to reinspect it every winter.  Nothing else to do for those 4 to 5 months each year.

[Gary]

Yes it does push the gunk deeper and out of the holes and into other moving parts where it will be broken up as the gears and bearings go round-n-round. Better than leaving it the oil transfer holes to plug things up.

[Dagwood]

I'm not exactly the sharpest tooth on the cog, but I am kind of baffled on why the pinion end of the driveshaft requires lubrication from the pumpkin, while the ujoint end of the driveshaft does just fine with grease only. 

[Daniel Meyer]

I'm not exactly the sharpest tooth on the cog, but I am kind of baffled on why the pinion end of the driveshaft requires lubrication from the pumpkin, while the ujoint end of the driveshaft does just fine with grease only. 

The pinion is not a spline. It is a pinion joint, used to align, and it has play/movement (that's why the shaft can wobble in the pinion cup). It has friction/generates heat. The regular splines, not so much...

Come to Inzane. I'll show you.

[pancho]

Here is how the service manual says to lubricate the drive shaft.


Pack 2 g (0.08 oz) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
pinion joint spline.
Install the drive shaft into the pinion joint until the stopper ring
seats in the pinion spline groove.
NOTE
Make sure that the stopper ring is seated properly by
pulling on the drive shaft lightly.
Be careful not to damage the drive shaft oil sea[.
Pack 1 g (0.04 oz) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
drive shaft spline.

[BonS]

. . . Pack 2 g (0.08 oz) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
pinion joint spline. . .

. . . Pack 1 g (0.04 oz) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
drive shaft spline. . .

And if you put that grease on a gram scale you'll be amazed at how little that is! This is exactly what I do and so far so good.

[whitestroke]

This is mine with only 3.5K miles on the bike.  It had never been serviced and it's sloppy wet.  Another vote for holes lube pinion.
Are all rusty pinions the people that have changed rear end lube?
Maybe the manuals state the wrong fill amount as the factory fill on mine appears to be working.

[BonS]

I have to believe that the pumpkin gears are dipping down in the rear end lube and the "twin holes" are scavenging and circulating this oil bath lubrication into the cup. If those holes become blocked by crud either settling in there or being pushed in there during servicing then the spline cup becomes starved and the wear begins. Clogged arteries bad.

[pancho]

This is mine with only 3.5K miles on the bike.  It had never been serviced and it's sloppy wet.  Another vote for holes lube pinion.
Are all rusty pinions the people that have changed rear end lube?
Maybe the manuals state the wrong fill amount as the factory fill on mine appears to be working.

That looks like factory GREASE on those splines.... if you drain a bit of your rear drive oil, I think it will look different.

[pancho]

I'm not sure what I am missing!!! We see pictures and hear testimonies of what happens to the pinion cup and splines when there is no grease applied. THe service manual says to grease that cup and spline.... why is anyone looking for that miraculous oil to appear to take care of that joint?? Why not just grease it like the people who built it recommended and see if the problem goes away.. Has anyone who greases the cup like the factory recommends had a worn out pinion cup?? 

[Mallett]

I'm not sure what I am missing!!! We see pictures and hear testimonies of what happens to the pinion cup and splines when there is no grease applied. THe service manual says to grease that cup and spline.... why is anyone looking for that miraculous oil to appear to take care of that joint?? Why not just grease it like the people who built it recommended and see if the problem goes away.. Has anyone who greases the cup like the factory recommends had a worn out pinion cup?? 

LOL, Pancho...I think you've got a great idea...

[Chrisj CMA]

I'm not sure what I am missing!!! We see pictures and hear testimonies of what happens to the pinion cup and splines when there is no grease applied. THe service manual says to grease that cup and spline.... why is anyone looking for that miraculous oil to appear to take care of that joint?? Why not just grease it like the people who built it recommended and see if the problem goes away.. Has anyone who greases the cup like the factory recommends had a worn out pinion cup??  

I grease it like this every time and have never had a problem.

[pancho]

Just for information,,,,,,,,  the reason Honda recommends  molybdenum disulfide paste (40% moly) for the final drive splines and molybdenum disulfide grease (3% moly) for the drive shaft is because of the unique characteristics of molybdenum,, namely impact resistance.  Splines cannot be adjusted or shimmed like bevel cut gears,, so it lengthens the life by providing protection hypoid gear oil never can.

[pancho]

Now that info is not from Honda,,, just a bit of knowledge of molybdenum.

[Jabba]

I'm not sure what I am missing!!! We see pictures and hear testimonies of what happens to the pinion cup and splines when there is no grease applied. THe service manual says to grease that cup and spline.... why is anyone looking for that miraculous oil to appear to take care of that joint?? Why not just grease it like the people who built it recommended and see if the problem goes away.. Has anyone who greases the cup like the factory recommends had a worn out pinion cup?? 

I have used anti-seize several times and have never had a problem.  I will NOT use anti-seize any more.  I have been educated. 

However, I have used the same method, with varying results.  Namely, I have done it 3 times when it worked fine... and others have done it also getting good results.  however, Squealy and I both had poor results this last time.  And i reiterate... that the oil holes were NOT plugged on my pinion cup.  You can see the floor thru the holes in this pic.



What changed?  That's what I want to know...  Why did we get different results in the same procedure?

We'll update this soon, after we tear back down.  It may be another month... i may do it sooner.

Jabba

[F6MoRider]

While watching this important topic, I'm beginning to sense the problem may not be so much if grease or paste was used, or anti-seize for that matter, but rather the seal which prevents water from entry.  For rust to occur at the rate we're seeing it, I'm thinking water must be getting in there but not getting displaced at the same rate which it's entering. 

I'm thinking the seal is gaining in its importance to this issue...?  Possibly coupled with the vent holes pulling oil up, if the level were high enough, and into the pinion which would potentially displace any water that got by the seal?

[whitestroke]

What changed?  That's what I want to know...  Why did we get different results in the same procedure?
Jabba
[/quote]



The amount of oil in the rear end changed?