Loud Ticking/ Knocking & lousy gas mileage - What's up?

[kyllini]

Did the desmog. changed out the petcock and installed Dan Marc solenoid and thought I was done.
Filled up the tank with gas & Techron additive and had it sit for about a week (crappy weather).
Started the bike today and went to a ride.
Got 69 miles on primary tank (without reserve) and i know I have a heavy wrist but that's ridiculous.
I also had a loud ticking/knocking sound out of right side of engine  - wasn't there before.
Sounded like it was behind the oil dipstick area.
Any ideas what's going on?
I'm spending way too much time working on this lady than riding her.

[Valkpilot]

Did the desmog. changed out the petcock and installed Dan Marc solenoid and thought I was done.
Filled up the tank with gas & Techron additive and had it sit for about a week (crappy weather).
Started the bike today and went to a ride.
Got 69 miles on primary tank (without reserve) and i know I have a heavy wrist but that's ridiculous.
I also had a loud ticking/knocking sound out of right side of engine  - wasn't there before.
Sounded like it was behind the oil dipstick area.
Any ideas what's going on?
I'm spending way too much time working on this lady than riding her.

Check the fuel line from the petcock through the Dan Marc to the carbs.  No kinks or drooping allowed.

Also, check the vent line to make sure it is not kinked or plugged.

[kyllini]

Valkpilot - will do, but not sure this is fuel starvation issue due to kinked or low fuel line. The symptoms showed up at relatively normal speeds and relatively low rpms. When repositioned petcock to reserve, symptons went away.
The knocking is problematic because it started out of nowhere.
Sounds like a car valve knocking - but seems to be behind the area of the dipstick (as close as I can determine). Don't see any kinked vacuum lines either.
Other than that the bike is running strong but is a definite Buzzer.
Lots of noise  - undetermined locations.
Starting to get annoying.

[Bone]

Lots of noise  - undetermined locations.

I'd pull the dipstick and look for strange bubbles.
I had a crankcase full of gasoline once in a 1200 GW.

[kyllini]

Bone - will check it out tomorrow, but off hand I would have to guess there isn't a leak into crankcase. The bike runs well and the oil temp never really goes over 200 degrees.
I would think I would have overheating issues if the crankcase was penetrated with gas.
From what I'm reading, I'm beginning to wonder if this is a U joint noise?
The bike has 6300 miles total, so hard to believe I could have all these wear and tear issues at this stage.
And 69 miles to reserve is really ridiculous.
Scratching my head with this one.

[Patrick]

The noise sounds like an exhaust leak, either from the exhaust manifold gaskets or an emission tube depending on what was removed/installed during your desmog.

[Dougs2000IS]

D-Smog plugs leaking?

[Brian]

Bone - will check it out tomorrow, but off hand I would have to guess there isn't a leak into crankcase. The bike runs well and the oil temp never really goes over 200 degrees.
I would think I would have overheating issues if the crankcase was penetrated with gas.
From what I'm reading, I'm beginning to wonder if this is a U joint noise?
The bike has 6300 miles total, so hard to believe I could have all these wear and tear issues at this stage.
And 69 miles to reserve is really ridiculous.
Scratching my head with this one.

Is the noise only present while moving? How much techron was added? I assume the bike ran fine before you started this work?

[BnB Tom]

D-Smog plugs leaking?

  Missed one?   ???

[kyllini]

Will go through the vacuum plugs again. Maybe something came loose.
I've filled up twice since desmog and each time poured half bottle of Techron in tank.
Wanted to flush out anything in there. Bike seems to be running strong but the knock is new and accelerates with the engine revs.
Have a feeling the bad fuel mileage I'm getting, may be a combination of a heavy wrist and some type of fuel starvation (perplexing because all lines pitch down).
Seriously considering installing an extra fuel tank (with fuel pump) and eliminate several issues at once.
I bought this bike for reliability (over some other brands) and at this point - frustration is really setting in.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Denny47]

In your original post you said only 69 miles to reserve but not how many gallon of gas it took. Also said you changed petcock. If only a couple of gallon of gas to reserve, it sounds like it may be the different petcock. On the de-smog you probably had the exhaust loose so did you install new exhaust gaskets, maybe the ticking is coming from there if you did not change or the gasket under the plate that blocks the exhaust under the right side head.

[kyllini]

Denny47 - The bike took only about 3 gallons at last fill up.
I bought the Golan long stem petcock but don't think it has a 2 gallon reserve.
I never loosened the exhaust to do the desmog and never checked the exhaust bolts.
I know the previous owner changed out the exhaust and said he never changed the gaskets so maybe there's a leak there but - all of a sudden?

[Denny47]

Gas mileage is not great on these monsters. A friend of mine, 97 Standard, normally gets 28-30 mpg on his and he definitely does not have a heavy wrist. I have gotten as low as 32 on my 97 Tourer but normally get 34-35 if I don't run too hard, occasionally 38 if I'm very lucky. I think the gas itself has a lot to do with the mpg. I run non-ethanol and it doesn't seem to matter if it's 87 or 91 octane. Don't give up, these engines are almost indestructible so it's probably something minor.

[Michvalk]

You have a vacuum leak somewhere.

[kyllini]

Sounds like the consensus is either a loose exhaust bolt or a vacuum leak somewhere from the desmog I did.
I'm on my way to garage to check these.

[custom1]

Denny47 - The bike took only about 3 gallons at last fill up.
I bought the Golan long stem petcock but don't think it has a 2 gallon reserve.
I never loosened the exhaust to do the desmog and never checked the exhaust bolts.
I know the previous owner changed out the exhaust and said he never changed the gaskets so maybe there's a leak there but - all of a sudden?

The longer the stem on the petcock the less primary tank you have and more reserve. How do you know how much reserve you have? You would have to run it dry to find out. Obviously carry some extra in a can to find out.

If you only added 3 gallons your pickup tube is probably too long. 3 gallons times 30mpg is only 90 miles.

Exhaust bolts can work loose at any time. Check them to be sure. Do not over tighten as they break off easily.

 I know you said it changes with rpm, but does it make the ticking sound sitting still or only going down the road.

I never did a de-smog but it sounds like one of the block-off plates/plugs as mentioned earlier.

I also agree a vacuum leak might be part of the fuel mileage problem.

Did you plug the # 6 intake where the vacuum to the old petcock was?

[Patrick]

If the exhaust wasn't removed, how did you block off the bottom port ? How are the remaining ports plugged ? When I mentioned those ports in the first post, I was wondering if one was leaking.

[Chiefy]

If the exhaust wasn't removed, how did you block off the bottom port ? How are the remaining ports plugged ? When I mentioned those ports in the first post, I was wondering if one was leaking.

I used a Redeye shiny kit, and didn't have to remove the exhaust.

[kyllini]

Also used the Redeye shiny kit and was able to plug the bottom hole without removing the exhaust.
I just checked all the exhaust bolts and tightened them as much as I could ( they weren't really loose).
Started bike and it's still ticking / knocking (never stops - just changes frequency with rpms).
I also looked for a vacuum leak but didn't see any. All the plugs I installed during desmog were tight.
One thing I noticed (which is really weird) is a lot of soot under the motor case. I looked for an oil leak but didn't see any. Would the techron have something to do with this?
Let it run for 5-10 min trying to find a leak but nothing.
My guess is maybe this is/was coming out from around the exhaust gaskets (?).
Tried to see the oil level but the bike has one of those temp. gauge dipsticks and I couldn't detect any oil on it.
Opened up the oil cap and saw some oil inside (not a lot).
Figure if it's low the temp. warning light would go on and also the temp would be above 210-220 degrees (?). Runs typically at around 175 - 200.
Bike did have an oil change last fall when it was serviced with the carbs.
Needless to say, I'm getting really frustrated with this.
Any good Valk mechanics in Jersey?

[R J]

You know those stethoscopes the Dr's use?

Make one out of a long piece of hose.

Stick one end in you ear, lightly in your ear, and then use the other end to slowly run over the area you think the ticking is coming from., oh, forgot, engine running.

This will identify where your ticking is coming from.

Come back and let us know what ya find.   Then we will go from there.

I'd say ya probably have a blown exhaust gasket from the info you have provided so far.

Thank you for listening.

PS:   It takes a very good Supercharger to blow one of these engines.   Mine has been mistreated for 242K and is still running like a scalded dog even with my Trike conversion kit on it.    Butt dyno, I think MGM comes out of the hole and runs just as fast with the kit as it did as a 2 wheeler.

[custom1]

Soot is evidence of an exhaust leak. You are getting closer.

Find a stock dip stick and check the oil level. You can't rely on engine temp to tell you if there is enough oil. Well you can................once.

[custom1]

I think I have a stock dip stick (I will check tonight). I will mail it to you if you want. Send me a PM with your address.

Can you post a pic of the soot? The previous owner may have left out one of the exhaust gaskets.

The soot starts somewhere,   that's where the leak and noise is coming from.

[Patrick]

In order to really help, the noise needs to be located. The exhaust can be a real PITA to stop leaking. I prefer the aftermarket fiber gaskets over the standard copper rings.
I don't know what the Red-eye kit is, probably most were desmogged before these kits were available. I made my own STUFF to do it about 14 years ago.

[Chiefy]

I have an oil temp dipstick.  While it is not marked to show the optimum level, you should be showing some oil on it, even with the bike on the side stand.  At this point, I'd recommend an oil and filter change, and fill it exactly with the amount the book calls for.  Then check the stick.

[kyllini]

Custom1 - thanks for the offer. I'll pm you.
The oil temp dipstick doesn't show any oil that I can see. It has an added piece that screws into the opening and this extends the dipstick but I would have assumed the total length should be correct to monitor the oil level.
Update: went back out there and ended up adding 2 quarts of oil (just in case) - still didn't see any oil. Doesn't seem to run any different either.
Maybe the dipstick is just wrong length(?).
I'm not sure about this but I think I hear knocking coming from the front timing belt cover.
It's not loud, but definitely consistent.
I also saw soot coming out of a pinhole on the bottom of the mufflers (one each side). Hole seems to be intentionally there (same on both sides). Couldn't see any other locations for the soot to originate, but it must have been close the exhaust gaskets because it's far forward (under engine case).
i suspect the techron loosened up some nasty stuff inside engine/mufflers and it's blowing it out.
What now?

[Hoser]

I would be very worried if my dipstick had no oil on it after checking it..  Are you holding the bike upright when you check it? It holds four quarts of oil, BTW.  Hoser 

[custom1]

Ok got your PM.

My stock dip stick is exactly 8 1/2 inches from the flat surface above the threads to the full mark. So you can take yours and measure down that distance and make a mark so you know you are close on oil level right now instead of waiting on the mail.

Clean oil is hard to see, especially if the stick is shiny chrome or stainless.

How was the temp gauge measuring anything if it was not touching the oil?

The pin holes are there to let moisture out of the mufflers. Any soot in front of them is coming from someplace else.

[pancho]

'Update: went back out there and ended up adding 2 quarts of oil (just in case) - still didn't see any oil. Doesn't seem to run any different either. '

now that is scary  kyllini,, I think the first thing you need to do is get a handle on the oil level,, two quarts blindly, is not good any way you look at it....  either more than two low or two over.

[judd]

Two scenarios, Very low oil or fuel in the crankcase,  since you have been messing with the fuel system and are now getting poor mileage and engine knock....................... Gas may have thinned oil enough that it is not detectable on the stick and the bearings are washed out, causing the knocking sounds. Pull stick, smell for gas.

 Just guessing here, hope I'm wrong .............. I would start as others have suggested by dumping the oil and refilling first, and don't run it any longer till you at least eliminate those possibilities.  You have to now anyway, adding two quarts and still not knowing where you are at, is not good !!!

Judd

[Patrick]

OK, this is strange. A couple things
The noise traveled from behind the dipstick to the timing cover ? There are things in the timing cover that can make noise.
Oil level. Its checked with the bike upright and the dipstick resting [not screwed in] on the block.

[kyllini]

Custom1 - thanks for the offer but I think that I can now check the level properly (knowing the exact length of dipstick to the high mark).
Judd - no fuel the crankcase (doesn't smell like it).
Agreed that adding 2 quarts blindly is not a good idea, but was looking to see if i would see anything on the dipstick. I think the dipstick is either too short or the oil is clear and I just can't see it on the stem.
Just checked again - seems like I have oil in there, probably a couple of quarts too high. Still difficult to tell because the oil is so clear.
I do intend on changing the oil again even though it had an oil change less than 500 miles ago.
The bike is definitely noisy - just can't tell what's normal and what isn't.
It does seem to run strong but new noises worry me.
Somehow or another I think the Techron and/or the Desmog may have something to do with this.
Just can't pinpoint it, and am also confused why the timing belts would now be ticking /knocking. This doesn't mean it isn't also knocking from somewhere else (I just can't find it).
Would bring it in to dealer but not confident they know how to work on these things (and forget about the outrageous prices).
Any good Valk mechanics around the Jersey shore area?

[Brian]

OK, this is strange. A couple things
The noise traveled from behind the dipstick to the timing cover ? There are things in the timing cover that can make noise.
Oil level. Its checked with the bike upright and the dipstick resting [not screwed in] on the block.

I am with you Patrick on this noise has moved and noises coming from the timing belt cover. My idler pulley that was going bad made more of a high pitched whine that changed with rpm.

The techron bottle I have here recommends one 20oz bottle to 20 gallons of gas. Will these engines properly burn and run if 10oz is added to 5 gallons of gas?

Next, now that 2 quarts of oil was added on a hunch, I strongly suggest draining the crankcase and starting over again adding the correct amount of oil and then check the level on the dipstick. This will help reduce the number of variables here. Fresh oil can be hard to see on the stick if in a poorly lit garage. I check my oil with the bike straight up, normally with me on it.

[kyllini]

Bike was pretty straight up when checked, and definitely planning on changing the oil again and getting a regular dipstick.

[indiandave]

 I would drain your oil into a clean container (maybe able to reuse) and fill to 4 qtys. When draining check for metal with magnet and smell of fuel. Make sure to use the right grade/spec of oil, if you are new to this bike and did not change the oil yourself do not use old oil. The check oil bike level and not on side stand and the dipstick NOT theared in to case. See you have the aftermarket stick but have the mesurement for the fact Dipstick.
 After Oil is correct try to find noise with a metal bar or screwdrive - hold the one end to the eng where you think the noise is coming from and the other end to you ear(or just below on the bone) this will pin point where noise is coming from. I like this better that hose as stated before as you can put on exthaust.
 The soot you stated - that it was before the exit of the exthaust. This is a leak and will make a ticking sound. Clean soot off and run again see if you still have leak. Note I have cleaned many carbs with a poar in the tank met. I used Texaco gas to clean as it has Techron additive already. I put a bottle of Techron additive th 12gal size to 3 gals of Texaco Highest grade gas and the bike will run sootly out the tailpipe. I will run the bike in high gear below 2000RPM for 20 miles then let bike set for a day or 2 then run it the same as before. Will do this till the idle is good this will have cleared up your Idel curcit. You can swap out to Seafroam or other carb cleaner on this site sometimes the mixing it helps.

[indiandave]

Soot is a indaction of you much fuel or too little air in eng (have you checked your airfilter to see if it is clean and no unwanted guess have made it a home). Rich burning = bad gas milage. Pull your plugs to see what they look like also will help in T/S all should be the same Google to see what a correct burnig plug will look like. Also is the soot on both sides are just one?

[kyllini]

Indiandave - good suggestions. I will drain, measure and refill to correct specs. The bike had the oil changed at a motorcycle dealer on Sep. 2012 (about 500 miles ago) by previous owner. i have copy of receipt. It took (5 quarts - 10W-40) and they also changed fuel filter and drain bolt gasket.
Bike was running great until i put Techron in tank. That's when the soot started and (hate to mention this) but started the bike today and runs like crap.
I don't believe the additional oil is making the motor run poorly (but correct me if I'm wrong here).
And I changed out the air filter when I did the desmog (approx 200 miles ago).

[Patrick]

Too much oil will allow the crankshaft and transmitter gears to contact and excessively foam the oil. Foamy oil doesn't lubricate.
When draining the oil, lean the bike to the right side. I also raise the front a bit so the drain plug is the lowest part of the case.
You made mention of 5 qts of oil. Thats too much. These monsters take 4 qts for a normal oil change.

[judd]

Bingo you may have found the problem, the engine only takes 4 quarts for starters, you now have 7 in there........... A dealer once tried to sell me 5 quarts as well, I had to argue with him about the fact it only takes 4,    Never been to a shop for any service yet and will not be anytime soon.

Stole this little tidbit off of another forum ..........

There is DEFINITELY harm in having too much engine oil. The most common problem is -- believe it or not -- lack of lubrication caused by low oil pressure. What happens is the crankshaft "whips" the oil in the oil pan into a foam. The foamed oil is then pushed through the lubrication system. The air bubbles causes a drop in oil pressure and less oil is delivered to moving parts. This results in increased wear, lower fuel economy, higher temperatures and generally just a Whole Lot Of Bad Things.

The action of the crankshaft whipping up the oil also robs the engine of some power; it takes effort to push the crankshaft through all that extra oil. I hope everything turns out okay for you.

[kyllini]

Judd, Patrick - thanks. i drained the oil and although I didn't measure how much was in there, it looked closer to 6 than 4.
My guess about the dealer's 5 quarts is that is what was charged, although he may have put in only 4.5 (remember the oil filter extra capacity).
Anyway, the oil looked relatively clean (a little darker than new) with no evidence of foaming, gasoline or metal particles.
I replaced the oil 4 quarts, and took a ride. Stayed relatively low revs 2-3 k and ran so-so. When i accelerated to little over 3k and than decelerated, it backfired (loudly). It did this again later at lower RPMs.
First time I heard the bike backfire.
Also, seemed that it was running rough , almost like fuel starvation(?).
Decided to put the bike back up on lift and take apart again.
Will check fuel supply modifications I did, along with desmog.
Will probably remove exhausts and replace all gaskets.
Damn, I was looking for an activity (riding) not a project.
Will give it another shot - let's see what I find this time around.
Any ideas why the bike is backfiring now?
I'm all ears - thanks!

[custom1]

Its backfiring because there is an exhaust leak!

The exhaust leak is the ticking you hear. That is where the soot is coming from.

When you let off the gas cold air gets sucked into the exhaust where the leak is and explodes.

Please take a picture of the soot and post it.

It has to be one of the exhaust gaskets.

Take the exhaust off like you said and inspect the gaskets. At least one of them is bad or not there or there are two in the same hole.

If the whole bottom of the engine case has soot, the leak is one of the front cylinders.

If putting Techtron in the gas causes the soot, it would come out the end of the pipes, not cause it to come out up front somewhere. The Techtron is not your problem. In fact you haven't used enough yet. You probably still have a few gummed up carbs causing the rough running. You need to ride it, then let it sit over night and then ride it and repeat over and over until it clears up. It is not an instant fix.

I don't think your fuel mods are the problem. Fuel starvation happens at sustained high load or after heavy acceleration. Not at low speed just putting around. That indicates clogged slow jets.

You said a few times that you will check the vacuum plugs from the de-smog. I never did one but I'm pretty sure some of the places you plug off are under pressure from exhaust, not vacuum. That could be where your leak is.


The bike only takes 4 quarts with the new filter, not 4.5.

Keep at it. You will find the problem.