Starter Wobble

[motogotro]

Hi all.  I'm new to the board having just recently purchased a non-running 1998 Valkyrie but I've been a rider and a wrencher for 40+ years.  24k miles and in great condition but it has not been run in well over a year.  I have the carbs off right now going through them so I don't really know if it will run yet.  However, while I was giving the bike a once over I noticed that one of the long bolts that holds the starter motor together was lose and that the housing of the starter itself was slightly crooked.  I snugged up the lose one and got the starter aligned a bit better but the housing seems to be cushed with rubber gaskets at both ends?  What's the process for tightening those bolts?  I also noticed that when I hit the starter button the motor itself kind of wobbles around a bit and there is a fair bit of gear noise although the starter seems to spin the engine over just fine.  I had a Goldwing at one time and I do not remember the starter making this much noise.

[Ricky-D]

Here's the way I would interpret what you are saying.

The previous owner had a hydrolock experience and disassembled the starter assembly to discover some broken parts.

I would suggest some thorough reading about the subject "HYDROLOCK".

A complete and detailed inspection of the starter system should follow.

***

[9Ball]

you're in for some expensive repairs....sorry.  Hope you got a good deal on the bike.

You should pull the starter and inspect the gears...I imagine you'll see the problem and at least start you in the right direction.

Good luck and keep updating this post.  There are a lot here that can help you through this pain.

[Anthony]

definately hydrolocked.
pull out the starter.
i hope you 'only' find a couple of broken teeth on the second gear, and no bent stem or broken casing.

something like this is a good thing, they say     :

good luck,
Anthony

[motogotro]

I'll pull the starter but with issues like those pictures I would not expect the engine to turn over?  I gave $2k for the bike.

[Patrick]

Well, on the bright side, only paying $2K for the bike you can afford the repairs.

[Ricky-D]

The smart thing would be to read about "hydrolock" first.

There is a plethora of information on that particular subject.

***

[salty1]

Well, on the bright side, only paying $2K for the bike you can afford the repairs.

 

[motogotro]

Ok, good news for me, the starter clutch/drive gears are all good.  The starter reduction gear set is another story.  The roll pin that should hold the ring gear in place is gone and the ring gear is all chewed up.  I'm guessing that this could have been due to a hydrolock and I just got lucky that it took out the starter instead of the gear set.  The housing around the ring gear roll pin is deformed so I think I will end up needing almost everything from the starter motor itself forward.

[salty1]

Maybe you can score a good used one and make a "silk purse out of sow's ear". A new one at HDL is $509+.

[motogotro]

I scored a used one off of ebay for $65 and I'm hopefull that between the two I can build a good starter.  The motor part of mine looks good and was able to spin the motor over fine even with the reduction gear set in the shape it was in so as long as the used one has a good gear set I should be good.  I started putting the carbs back on tonight but had to run out and get some replacement gas line and some new nipples to plug the vaccum ports.  The vaccum line to the emissions valve was already disconnected, what is the advantage to doing that?  Does is make it run or drive bettter?

[salty1]

Vacuum leaks can be a real PITA. Your at point with the carbs out where you could desmog the bike and do away with all that emission junk.  I've never regretted doing that to both my Valks. Redeye technology has all you need to get the job done.

http://redeye.ecrater.com/c/1086125/desmog-heat-shield

[motogotro]

Since I'm waiting on the starter anyway I'm going to look into desmoging the bike.

[Chrisj CMA]

If in fact that motor suffered a lock.  And if in fact someone was on the starter long enough to break the starter motor, it would be almost inconceivable that there wasnt any internal damage to the gears or the casing.  Id look again more closely if possible, drain the oil if you havent already and inspect for metal.  If it really is all good then my first suspicion is it didnt lock, but either way sounds (so far) like a good result for you.   

[motogotro]

I reached in through the starter hole with my finger and spun the gears all the way around and they spun smoothly with no evidence of any damage that I could see.  The splines on the end of the starter look good as well.  Maybe it wasn't a hydrolock that broke the starter. 

The dowel pin that is supposed to hold the ring gear in place was completely missing and I don't know how that could have happened without someone taking the starter apart.  The case is only slightly deformed, not busted up enough for the pin to have gotten out.  The grease in the reduction gear case was pretty much solidified so maybe the gears just failed due to lack of lubrication and someone took the starter apart to try and fix it but didn't get it back together right.  They certainly did not replace the bad parts.  I'll try to take some pics and see if I can figure out how to post them.

[motogotro]

Here's a shot of my gears.  I've spun them all around and they all look good.


Here is the reduction gear housing where the dowel pin was supposed to be.


Here's another starter part that did not stay in place


And here is the ring gear.  I'm not sure you can tell how badly damaged the teeth are but they are very bad.

[motogotro]

Got the new starter in Friday, bolted it up and the bike started almost instantly.  I've only put about 20 miles on it so far because the rear tire has a slow leak in it and I don't want to risk a rear flat while underway.  Thanks all of the tips.  I'm happy to report that I have escaped the hydrolock deamon this time.

[Hoser]

Got the new starter in Friday, bolted it up and the bike started almost instantly.  I've only put about 20 miles on it so far because the rear tire has a slow leak in it and I don't want to risk a rear flat while underway.  Thanks all of the tips.  I'm happy to report that I have escaped the hydrolock deamon this time.

Now you should decide how to avoid a hydrolock.  My solution was to replace the oem petcock with a manual petcock.  If you do this, you MUST turn of the fuel each and every time you finish riding.  Having started riding before there were vacuum petcocks I always do that anyway.  There are many ways to safeguard the problem,  I sure many will chime in.  Hoser 

[9Ball]

Got the new starter in Friday, bolted it up and the bike started almost instantly.  I've only put about 20 miles on it so far because the rear tire has a slow leak in it and I don't want to risk a rear flat while underway.  Thanks all of the tips.  I'm happy to report that I have escaped the hydrolock deamon this time.

good news...thanks for the update.

[salty1]

Got the new starter in Friday, bolted it up and the bike started almost instantly.  I've only put about 20 miles on it so far because the rear tire has a slow leak in it and I don't want to risk a rear flat while underway.  Thanks all of the tips.  I'm happy to report that I have escaped the hydrolock deamon this time.

Now you should decide how to avoid a hydrolock.  My solution was to replace the oem petcock with a manual petcock.  If you do this, you MUST turn of the fuel each and every time you finish riding.  Having started riding before there were vacuum petcocks I always do that anyway.  There are many ways to safeguard the problem,  I sure many will chime in.  Hoser 

Hoser offers a good solution to preventing hydrolock, but I took a little different route. I desmoged my bike then installed a Dan Marc fuel shutoff valve and kept the OEM petcock. Every time the key is turned off, the shutoff closes preventing any flow. About the only time I remember to close the petcock is when the bike may sit for awhile.

[9Ball]

Got the new starter in Friday, bolted it up and the bike started almost instantly.  I've only put about 20 miles on it so far because the rear tire has a slow leak in it and I don't want to risk a rear flat while underway.  Thanks all of the tips.  I'm happy to report that I have escaped the hydrolock deamon this time.

Now you should decide how to avoid a hydrolock.  My solution was to replace the oem petcock with a manual petcock.  If you do this, you MUST turn of the fuel each and every time you finish riding.  Having started riding before there were vacuum petcocks I always do that anyway.  There are many ways to safeguard the problem,  I sure many will chime in.  Hoser 

Hoser offers a good solution to preventing hydrolock, but I took a little different route. I desmoged my bike then installed a Dan Marc fuel shutoff valve and kept the OEM petcock. Every time the key is turned off, the shutoff closes preventing any flow. About the only time I remember to close the petcock is when the bike may sit for awhile.

I've read of OEM petcock diaphragm failures that allowed fuel to flow through the vacuum line from the petcock through #6 thereby causing hydrolock...not sure if this is still possible with your setup but something to consider if you haven't already...

[motogotro]

Interesting thing on the oem petcock.  It has on/off/res just like a manual petcock.  Most of the vacuum petcocks I've seen have on/res/pri where pri allows fuel to flow without vacuum to help recover from running out of gas.  They typically do not have an off position.  From what I have read the off position on the Valkyrie petcock is just that, off no matter the state of vacuum which makes me wonder how we are supposed to recover from a running out of gas situation?  If it is in fact off then it would seem to be almost as safe a guard against hydrolock as a manual petcock except for the vacuum line to #6 possibility.  Am I missing something here?

To date I've been carefull to just bump the starter a few times before actually attemping to start the bike and I've been turning the petcock to off when stopped.  Hopefully I won't get bit before I figure out what I'm going to do long term.

[Bone]

Here is the inside of the petcock, if the link works.
Scroll down several pictures.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,8943.msg201638.html#msg201638


   

[Willow]

Looks like our friends may have jumped to a conclusion with the hydrolock guess.  The damage you describe to the starter could have also been caused by someone allowing it to be more loose than it was meant to be.

One bump will tell you whether or not you have a hydrolock issue.  There are certainly a lot more people motivated by hydrolock obsession than have actually experienced hydrolock.  The majority of Valkyrie owners are still riding with the OEM petcock.  The Dan Marc is a practical strategy.

Turning over the engine with the starter generates enough vacuum to feed the carbs.  If you run out of gas do not run your battery down too low to start (long start experience) the bike.

[motogotro]

Thanks Bone for that link.  I feel better about the OEM petcock now seeing that it has a steel ball inside to open/close the ports.  That's better than most that I've seen that rely on a rubber gasket to seal the ports.  I've seen those leak so many times I'm mostly amazed when they do work.

For now I think I'll be careful with the starter button and see if I'm able to remember to turn the petcock off when I stop.  If not the Dan Marc looks like a good option.

I am still a bit puzzled by the starter issue I had.  I could see the bolts that held the starter together were loose but the ones that held it to the engine were tight.  Someone may have attempted to remove the starter at some point and thought it had to be taken apart to come out.  I'm not sure why they would have wanted to remove it though because it still worked even in it's damaged state.  At the end of the day though I suppose it really doesn't matter.  I'm ecstatic that this all ended well and I feel like I've gotten a pretty good deal on a great bike.  I'm looking forward to logging some miles as soon as my back tire comes in.

Many thanks to everyone on this board for your help.  Be safe and keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down 

[pancho]

One bump will tell you whether or not you have a hydrolock issue.  There are certainly a lot more people motivated by hydrolock obsession than have actually experienced hydrolock.  The majority of Valkyrie owners are still riding with the OEM petcock.  The Dan Marc is a practical strategy.

How true,,,,  still, I for one do not think there is anything wrong with a bit of hydrolock fear,,, there is enough paranoia here that it got my attention and so I ALWAYS shut my petcock off when not riding. I never did that with any other bike unless it had an immediate leaking problem that needed attention.         
We all know that it can and has happened.