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Mapper
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« on: December 08, 2013, 06:27:39 PM » |
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BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT: '97 Tourer will not start. Starter clicks, and alternately turns, but will not start.
BACKGROUND:
A couple weeks ago while riding home in a light rain, my alternator died. I know it was the alternator because the power drained slowly and then I was on the side of the road. I pushed it up a hill and tried to push start it -- didn't work.
After re-charging the battery, I was able to get it started so I replaced the alternator.
After replacing the alternator, still could not start. The starter would turn but the engine would not fire. Before the starter turned, I got clicking from the starter. I recharged the battery several times (bought in August) since troubleshooting - seems like the more I try the starter, the less turning and more clicking I am getting.
TROUBLESHOOTING:
I have checked my ground to the alternator, the engine block, and continuity to the battery terminals and to both posts of the starter relay.
I have taken the relay out and cleaned and lubed it with silicon grease.
I've verified the clutch in neutral, I've pulled the clutch in gear, I've tried with the kickstand up…
I've verified with battery out there's a short between starter relay posts when the key is turned
Verified an open between relay posts when the key is in the off position.
I've checked the main fuse.
The battery is currently at 12.9V
At this point, I'm stumped. I was excited to get the new alternator in to get back on the road… now just stumped. Ideas? Any help appreciated!
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Skinhead
Member
Posts: 8727
J. A. B. O. A.
Troy, MI
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 06:48:15 PM » |
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Check the voltage on the battery as it's cranking, if it drops significantly when cranking, get a new battery.
You could also try jumping it from a non-running car/truck, or a battery jump pack.
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« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 06:49:48 PM by Skinhead »
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 06:48:49 PM » |
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It doesn't sound like you've cleaned the start switch. Its in shop talk.
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Mapper
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 06:59:44 PM » |
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Battery was at 12.5V this time… dropped to 11V on start… also battery was bought in August (hopefully not bad). I have the battery back on the charger.
I haven't cleaned the starter button or kill switch, but will give that a try. I didn't expect the starter button to be the issue because it is trying to fire the starter… didn't expect the kill switch because it is allowing me to use the starter button.
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll keep you posted!
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Mapper
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 07:02:34 PM » |
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Skinhead, do you know if I can jump the bike directly from a car battery with the MC battery taken out of the circuit? Or do I need to keep the MC battery in the circuit?
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 07:04:30 PM » |
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If the engine turns over, the kill switch is OK.
11v is OK, but, a bit on the low side. Anything below 10.5 v is too much draw. Trying a jumper battery is a good idea.
But, your problem is kind of a classic dirty start switch problem.
You'll know soon.
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Mapper
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 07:06:32 PM » |
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I hope you are right, Patrick.
This would solve an intermittent issue I've had over the last year: every once in awhile my bike won't start. Then after a couple minutes of fiddling with it, sitting and cursing/hoping/praying… it starts.
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Mapper
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 07:53:20 PM » |
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Starter button is now squeaky clean  Took it apart as shoptalk section described… was pretty dirty. Battery charged to 12.9 volts. Volts drop to ~11.6V when starter is trying to turn over, but drops to 10.5-ish volts when doing the clicking sound… goes back to 11.6V when turning over again. ??? |
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old2soon
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 08:02:55 PM » |
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When my alt went out I believe it took the battery with it. After the switch cleaning did it start?? These beasts we drive need a GOOD battery and clean connections to start like they are supposed to. RIDE SAFE.
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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Mapper
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 08:08:57 PM » |
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Clean starter button, still no start  Battery has been charged, tested, recharged… Do I have to have the MC battery connected in order to jump the bike using a car battery? Or can I just use the car battery? |
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old2soon
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 09:02:51 PM » |
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Leave the M/C battery in and with the donor vehicles engine OFF jump start your M/C. If it starts being jumped i'd say a new battery is in order. RIDE SAFE
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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Mapper
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 09:14:06 PM » |
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Thanks! Will try the jump with the MC battery in… tomorrow. Turning in for the night. Thanks for the help and suggestions! Keep them coming |
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gordonv
Member
Posts: 5763
VRCC # 31419
Richmond BC
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 11:01:36 PM » |
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You can do it without the MC battery installed, but I wouldn't do it. You need to shield those leads from grounding out on the bike. It would be easier to leave the MC battery in the bike, and put the jumper leads from the donor battery to the bike.
Please clarify. You say repeatedly that the starter clicks, but you don't say that the starter actually turns the engine over. The click, is it the relay? I understand that our starters are always connected to the gears in the rear of the engine, and doesn't have a solenoid on it like a car, which would make the click noise as it extends from the starter motor.
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1999 Black with custom paint IS   |
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SteveBC
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 05:03:09 AM » |
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Just a thought, as you mention replacing the alternator, check that you haven't dislodged the bank-angle-sensor. It is located very close to the alternator ( albeit behind a cover ) and maybe you gave it a nudge with your hand or spanner ??
Wish you luck in solving this problem soon, nothing worse than having something sitting there that you cannot use.........
Steve.
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Life is for living, that's my excuse...............
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Bert AKA,Valkaholic
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 07:12:05 AM » |
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I have had a Similar problem after Replacing the Carburetors on one of my Valkyrie's and I found that I had Knocked a Wire off of my Coils. after searching for the problem I Reconnected the wire and the problem was solved. Hope this is Helpful.
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Life Is A Highway, I Wanna Ride It All Night Long !
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Mapper
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 08:12:08 AM » |
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The clicking… from the relay, I am not sure (bad hearing) but I know it is from the right side and sounds pretty loud. Thanks for the advice on the battery. Yeah, I was very close to the bank angle sensor, apparently (didn't know where it was before you mentioned it). Sounds likely that I bumped it as the alternator was a pain the rear getting back in… and had to try a few times. I don't know where the coil wires are… I'll check the manual for that… if you can reach them from working on the alternator, then that is also a likely place to check. Thanks for all the good suggestions… only 10 more hours before I can go home and try to figure it out |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 08:55:57 AM » |
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Starter button is now squeaky clean Took it apart as shoptalk section described… was pretty dirty. Battery charged to 12.9 volts. Volts drop to ~11.6V when starter is trying to turn over, but drops to 10.5-ish volts when doing the clicking sound… goes back to 11.6V when turning over again. ??? Battery is toast. |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer  |
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Mapper
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 09:02:02 AM » |
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Battery is toast.
I'll be able to confirm that later with a jump start, from what I'm told. |
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R J
Member
Posts: 13380
DS-0009 ...... # 173
Des Moines, IA
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2013, 09:02:17 AM » |
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Starter button is now squeaky clean Took it apart as shoptalk section described… was pretty dirty. Battery charged to 12.9 volts. Volts drop to ~11.6V when starter is trying to turn over, but drops to 10.5-ish volts when doing the clicking sound… goes back to 11.6V when turning over again. ??? Battery is toast. Yupper what Daniel says. Ya jumps start it off of a non running vehicle, it will more than likely fire on the 3rd turn over. I was out in my garage digging out the snowblower, we got 5.3" yesterday and last night, blew it off and put more fuel in the tank and parked it. MGM was setting there with a strange look on it's face. Turned the key on, full choke and it was running the instant I hit the button. Let it run for awhile to make damn sure I had a gob of SeaFoam in the carbs. Shut him off and came back in the house. It was damn cold also, wind chill was MINUS 23* |
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44 Harley ServiCar   |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 09:27:55 AM » |
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Battery is toast.
I'll be able to confirm that later with a jump start, from what I'm told. Yep, but you already confirmed it with the voltages you posted. Shouldn't drop below about 12.3 when turning over a valk. 11.6 won't fire the ICM.  |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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Mapper
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2013, 09:55:10 AM » |
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9Ball
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2013, 10:01:02 AM » |
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absolutely a bad battery...good luck.
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VRCC #6897, Joined May, 2000
1999 Standard
2007 Rocket 3
2005 VTX 1300S
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2013, 10:47:58 AM » |
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11v is OK, but, once you said it dropped below 10.5v then we could have a problem. Yes, as the others said, jumping it with another battery will tell us what we need to know.
The battery connections need to be really clean and tight at both ends.
If the battery corrects the problem, good, then, sorry for having you spend the time cleaning the switch.
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Mapper
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2013, 11:02:00 AM » |
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Patrick, the switch was dirty. Cleaning probably solves the intermittent issue I've had in the past.
- The battery still appears GOOD. Bike would not start with jump from a car battery. In fact, car battery was also dropped to ~10.5V with starter clicking.
- Coil wires are all connected.
- as best as I can tell, the bank angle sensor has not been disturbed… it is screwed into the plate/cover that the seat lock is in.
??? Could it be a bad/going bad starter relay? Seems like the more I try the starter, the more it wants to click and the less it wants to turn. ???
Thoughts?
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2013, 11:10:31 AM » |
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I've never run into a relay problem [ on a valk]. But, a couple here have along with an overheated wiring connector.
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Skinhead
Member
Posts: 8727
J. A. B. O. A.
Troy, MI
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2013, 11:19:20 AM » |
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It Ain't Hydrolocked Is It? There Is No Way You Should Drag Down A Car Battery Trying To Start It. Unless Your Starter Is Shot.
Can You Roll The Engine Over By Hand? (Socket On The TimingSprocket On Thecrankshaft)
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Troy, MI |
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R J
Member
Posts: 13380
DS-0009 ...... # 173
Des Moines, IA
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2013, 11:19:25 AM » |
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Big fat question. Have you been under the right side cover and into the BIG Black boot? If not look and see if ya find something like this. If yours looks like this:  Go to your local stealer and buy 1 of these replacement parts for an older Gold Wing.  Move the BIG red wire to the open slot. Be sure and use the black cover that comes with it. It covers more of the wiring. I put this in mine shortly after I wired my Cobra Lightbar to the starter wiring without a relay. Didn't have a relay in stock at the time and was always add it in later. DUH: Never got a Round2it. |
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« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 11:21:33 AM by R J »
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44 Harley ServiCar |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2013, 11:27:48 AM » |
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- The battery still appears GOOD. Bike would not start with jump from a car battery. In fact, car battery was also dropped to ~10.5V with starter clicking.
Uh...that is disturbing news... It Ain't Hydrolocked Is It? There Is No Way You Should Drag Down A Car Battery Trying To Start It. Unless Your Starter Is Shot.
Can You Roll The Engine Over By Hand? (Socket On The TimingSprocket On Thecrankshaft)
I agree, hydrolock is a possibility. Pull the plugs. Try it again. |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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bassman
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2013, 11:30:20 AM » |
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Are the sparklers sparkling? (Spark plugs) Have you pulled one or more to actually see if they
are firing?
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Mapper
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2013, 11:30:29 AM » |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2013, 11:38:20 AM » |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2013, 11:49:54 AM » |
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LMAO ! We're all on the edge of our seats !  |
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old2soon
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2013, 12:25:18 PM » |
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Yup-these damn things make ya late fer work-they wanna keep goin-take ya away from yer family-honey-I HAVE to wipe the dust off-I have to shine the chrome I have to make sure she likes where I park her(don't ask)yes I DO have to check her tires again-yes I need a test ride cause I just checked the tires!!  Fill us in on WHAT wuz causing the no start issue please.  Glad ya got er runnin.  Saddest thing in the world-a Valkyrie in yer garage what don't werk!!  RIDE SAFE. |
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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Mapper
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2013, 12:54:03 PM » |
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Sorry guys! Had to go do something and get back to work. I think that I had bad jumper cables. I screwed the battery in tight, instead of using the cables and it started right up…. for a couple minutes (bad jumper cables??) Battery shows good voltage, alternator is charging the battery at 14V+… The motor sounded different… rough. maybe from sitting? Sounded good, but now I can't get it started. The starter is running fine… I get sputtering from the engine but will not catch. Some suggestions from a buddy: check the vacuum plugs (has been desmogged), pull spark plug and check for compression… also check spark (while it's out anyway). I have a dan-marc fuel switch, stock petcock… I've checked that there is gas in the carbs. Sounds like the dan-marc is clicking. Also, don't think the petcock is the problem since there is fuel in the carbs. When I get back home, I'll try the vacuum plugs and spark plug. Any other ideas? How did this all start from a bad alternator? Would attempting to push start with a bad alternator have led to this? Doesn't seem it should…. |
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« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 12:56:53 PM by Mapper »
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2013, 01:01:07 PM » |
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I still think battery. Pull it. Take it to the auto-parts store, and have it load tested.
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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Mapper
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2013, 01:04:15 PM » |
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They load tested the battery a few days ago and said it checked good. Starter turns very strong… sounds stronger than before even.
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2013, 02:54:49 PM » |
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They load tested the battery a few days ago and said it checked good. Starter turns very strong… sounds stronger than before even.
starter spinning fast and strong with no fire....classic weak battery symptom for a Valkyrie. Get new jumper cables (you always need good ones anyway) jump it to your car and my guess (like Daniel) is it will start because you have a bad battery |
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Patrick
Member
Posts: 15433
VRCC 4474
Largo Florida
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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2013, 02:56:20 PM » |
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This thing is taking on a life of its own. It'll be interesting to see what is ever found. If you remove the sparklers I'd recommend a compression check for peace of mind. That'll also give an indication of the starter drive gear condition.
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Skinhead
Member
Posts: 8727
J. A. B. O. A.
Troy, MI
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2013, 03:14:47 PM » |
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Dude, if it started and ran, the compression should be ok. Try the jump start again and if it starts, change the battery. You said it sounded funny. Funny HAHA or not right funny, like it was running out of gas? And now it sputters and won't start, like it is out of gas? Open on of the carb drains and see if you are getting fuel, if not, check to make sure you have power to that danmarc.
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