No Go

[Wayne H]

Engine spins over but does not fire.........First time with this problem...I'm thinking fuse but have not had time to check. Any words of wisdom ?   

[Thunderbolt]

usually battery voltage low Wayne.  It is high enough to spin it but too low to fire.  Mine would spin and not fire, but just as I let off the starter button it would fire as that would let the voltage increase to a level that would fire the ecm.  Try charging the battery or jumping it from a car battery with the car or truck not running.  If the voltage while you are cranking it gets down below about 10.5 V if I remember correctly, it will not fire the coils.

[billyboy]

usually battery voltage low Wayne.  It is high enough to spin it but too low to fire.  Mine would spin and not fire, but just as I let off the starter button it would fire as that would let the voltage increase to a level that would fire the ecm.  Try charging the battery or jumping it from a car battery with the car or truck not running.

My thoughts too. Put a volt meter on it and see what it says. Should be around
13 volts. 14.2 running. Hope this helps. 

[Grumpy]

Hook some jumper cables to the battery, and connect to a vehicle that is NOT running, if it starts, it is battery time.

[Wayne H]

Battery is fully charged voltage reads 13 and 10.5 when cranking but will not fire. Used jumper cables hooked to the car...Same problem. Not starting.......

[IamGCW]

When was the last time it ran?  Check the fuel is getting to the carb by opening one of the carb drains.  Maybe bad fuel valve or dan marc valve is off (if installed).  If there is fuel then go after the electrical. 

My bet is the battery is bad/weak. 

Gil

[John Schmidt]

Wayne, could be a messed up kill switch....just another suggestion. They can get grungy after a few years in the elements. Might want to pull a plug and lay it on the block to see if it fires.

[Thunderbolt]

It is out of the norm if that is the case Wayne.  As stated check for gas by unscrewing the drains on the bottom of the carbs.  Check for spark at the plug.  That might tell you if it is spark or fuel related.  I will look at the schematic diagram and see if anything else looks like it could be the culprit.

[Grumpy]

Check the fuses, according to the schematic there is a 10amp fuse just for ignition. It is in the fuse panel inside the right side cover.

[Wayne H]

Fuses all check OK kill switch appears to be OK (Checks out that way) Bike was running great just parked it in the garage last Sunday after a ride and it broke. It's definitely ignition trouble, I have no spark at the plugs.... Saw on the main tech board a member had the same problem I'm experiencing even tried jump starting from his truck but no good. He changed to an older battery and it fired right up.

I have a new battery on the charger.....will check it out tomorrow.

Appreciate all the suggestions.     

[John Schmidt]

Wayne, is it an I/S or other model? I have a spare ECM you can try if nothing else works, it's off my Tourer when I switched to the I/S ECM.

[Wayne H]

It is an I/S John. Thanks I'll keep that in mind. Hopefully the battery is going to turn out being the bad guy.

[IamGCW]

Wayne
 I think there is a mechanic near you, Attic Rat.  He may not watch the Florida board.  Maybe post in the Tech section.  I have see some good posts from him in the past.

But be sure to list the solution here so we have conversation at the Pizza Valk party in Z Hills. 

Gil

[Wayne H]

Well we can rule out the battery as being the problem......New battery....Same problem.

[bassman]

When ALL else fails check out the ignition pulse generators...they don't go bad often but when they do you will have similar problems....don't ask me how I know....if you can get into the Old Tech Archives (I can't right now for some reason) do a search on IPG's and under my name there is a long thread or two that discusses what I went through with my 98 Tourer.  Have you checked for fire at the sparklers?  That was one of my symptoms - no fire.....turned over fine, even replaced the battery but no fire.  If you have the Honda service manual I think it lists checking the IPG's has the last step in the troubleshooting process with a special meter.  Like I said, I can only recall one or two others having problems with IPG's besides me but it does happen.  Something like $80 or so for a new set and located near the trigger wheel area.  GOOD LUCK ! 

[Wayne H]

Thanks bassman, I did find your post and I'm beginning to think that could be my problem. Also noticed my radio has quit working...Maybe part of the same problem.

[Grumpy]

Don't really want to suggest this, but a few years ago, my is went haywire, different electrical components not working. Also intermittent operation of side stand switch engine cutting off etc.  Under the battery box, directly above the pivot for the swing arm you will see the main wiring harness, it has a lump in the center. That is the grounding connector, all the grounds for each component run through that block. when I unwrapped mine it was green with corrosion, ended up cutting the plugs out and replacing them. If you cannot locate the problem any where else, I would look there.

[IamGCW]

From my records.

Gil



Timing pulse pickups

The timing pulse sensors can be checked by checking the "Peak" voltage during cranking. You MUST have a digital meter capable of recording peak voltage.

If you unplug the sensor leads at the goose neck, behind the plastic plate, you can access the sensor plug. By putting your volt meter leads on the pickup leads you can measure the Peak voltage coming from EACH pickup. They must be above 1.7v but you should be able to get about 5v out of each. I've had to "tweak" the sensors to get the voltage up. I had to pry the sensor mount a little to "straighten" the sensor. then the voltage went from 2v to 5v. Sometimes it's not a matter of "gap", though the gap should be correct, I've seen more of them tilted than I have with to much gap. The gap really isn't adjustable. The mount has locating rings to put the pickup where it need to be. But the sensor can be tweaked slightly to move it closer, or to straighten it.


 Waste spark coil.

Waste spark coils fire both plugs at the same time. Both should fire on their top dead center, one cylinder will be on the compression stroke, the other will be on the exhaust stroke. The plug on the exhaust stroke will fire easier than the plug under compression. If you hook a timing light to a plug lead and it doesn't fire the light, but the other plug lead on the same coil will fire the light, the gap on the non firing plug may be too wide, or the plug may be bad. 

One coil fires Cyl. 1&2

Another fires Cyl. 3&4

The third fires Cyl. 5&6

So, the down and dirty is, if  the coils for 2-4-6 are firing, so is 1-3-5.

If the gap is too wide on one plug the plug with the narrower gap will fire, but the wide gap won't.

Check the voltage at the coil. it should be about 12v. The coil has power to it all the time, the ignition module grounds the coil to make it fire. if the voltage is low the coil will not charge to full voltage, making a weak spark.

[Thunderbolt]

Grumpy's suggestion about the connector sounds like a good possibility Wayne.

[Thunderbolt]

Wayne check the red/black and the red/white wires at the ignition switch when in the on position and see if they both have power.  Link to the schematic.
http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/rpage02i.html

[R J]

Just saw this post.

Pull the right side cover and locate the big black rubber boot.

Take it apart and see if it looks like this.



If it does order that part.   It is for an older Gold Wing, you have to relocate the RED wire in the connector to make it match.



Now, if that is the problem, get some relays on your added lights and etc.

Also, here is a nice quick reference document from our Mr. Jeff K in Florida.

http://www.jkozloski.com/generic_parts.htm

The above is documented in the right column next to the bottom.

[Wayne H]

Plug looks OK RJ and I have power at both places with the ignition on Thunderbolt. Have not had time to check the ground Grumpy but I will. Think this is going to be a time consumer so I'll just tinker with it when I have time.......(My Suzuki has assumed the lead role in the stable for the time being)

[Grumpy]

Plug looks OK RJ and I have power at both places with the ignition on Thunderbolt. Have not had time to check the ground Grumpy but I will. Think this is going to be a time consumer so I'll just tinker with it when I have time.......(My Suzuki has assumed the lead role in the stable for the time being)

The grounding block is a pain to get to, best to remove the battery box as it is below and forward of it.
One thing to make note of, if you have to rewire it, I think there are about 20 pins on the connecter, the wires have to stay paired up with the pins, some have 1 others may have 3  going to a pin, have to do them in order, cannot just connect them all together. First thing would be to separate the plug and see how bad it is, may just get by with a cleaning, mine was so corroded I had to replace the plug. Hope yours is not as bad.

[Thunderbolt]

O.K. that should eliminate your switch as a possibility.  Someone had a problem with one side of the switch at some point.  Will keep looking for possibilities.

[Thunderbolt]

Check the kill switch itself and the 9 pin connector in the right fairing as the kill switch wiring path is through that connector and goes to the icm.  Also check the connector on the icm.

http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/rpage05i.html

[Wayne H]

Didn't want to leave everybody hanging so here's whats happened so far. I have not had time to fully concentrate on this but all the switches relays and wires I've had had a chance to check  have checked OK. All the wires going to the ICM are as advertised.
I'm going to remove the front cover next and check the position of the pulse generators, but beginning to look like the ignition control module may have given up the ghost.

John if I were still in Florida I would borrow the one you have on the shelf just to verify but Oklahoma is a little too far away.

I'll keep everyone posted on the outcome....

[Pappy!]

Wayne, I have a couple of spare ICMs if you decide you need one.

[Thunderbolt]

Wayne take a look at this schematic.

http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/rpage06i.html

It's the ICM and the connector that plugs in there.  Unplug the connector and check these pins.  If I remember correctly it is on the right side of the battery box.
Pin 14 should be ground all the time.  I assume you have a test light or volt ohmmeter to check these things.  If not it would be a good investment.  Test light is the simplest.  Check for ground on pin 14 with the probe end with the clip end on the battery positive lead.  If it lights you have ground on the pin.  I can't tell you the pin configuration, but most of them either are labeled in very small numbers near the pin or at least number 1 will be labeled.  I will check further for the labeling.
Pin 11 should be ground when the bike is in neutral.  Does the green neutral light come on?
Pin 4 should be 12V or battery when the 10A fuse is good and the tip switch is not activated and  the kill switch is in the on position.  All three of those things have to happen at the same time or no 12V on pin 4.  The same 12V is applied to all three coils and if you have 12V on the black/white wires on the coil then your kill switch and the tip sensor is o.k. but wiring could still be bad to the ICM.  This is of course with the bike turned on.  Pin 14 and 11 should be grounded without turning the bike on.  To check with the test light for 12V you will put the clip on the negative terminal and use the probe end to look for the battery.  I hope I am not being to simplistic here but we never talked much about this kind of thing so don't know your experience with electrical.
I wish you were closer, this is getting interesting.............................
Maybe we can get Pappy to check the pin numbering on one of his spare ICM's.

[Thunderbolt]

Wayne this thread on the tech board turned out to be his Ignition Pulse Generator.  Take a look through it to see what he tried.  Check the things in the previous post first.  Any of those things could be a problem.  If you have an ohmmeter you can check the wiring to the IPG.  Check between the green black wire on pin 5 and the white yellow on pin 8 and the white blue on pin 7.  Pin 5 is the ground to both pulse generators so you should have continuity from 5 to 8 and 5 to 7 in the harness.  This will only verify continuity or that they are not open.  Not that the gap is adjusted correctly, but you wouldn't think the gap would change from one ride to the next.  I would think  that more likely there is a connector corrosion or open to the coils of the IPG type problem.  What they do is provide pulses to the ICM as the teeth on the trigger wheel spin and causes the ICM to fire the ignition coils.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,72520.0.html

[Wayne H]

TB, Never worry about being to simplistic when dealing with me for I am a very simple man. I do have all the electrical test equipment and have checked all the pins at the ICM. There is no numbering of the pins but it's not so hard to figure out by the color of the wires and rattlebones schematics.

The post about the pulse generators is my problem exactly. I have checked all the wires and I'm pretty much convinced the PG's are the little darlings causing the problem. I removed the lower cover today and disconnected them but have not removed them from the bike. However this presents a couple of new situations to consider, Should I replace the belts while I'm in there ? They look good but this bike is no virgin it has over a hundred thousand miles on it.
Also what about a trigger wheel ? I put a four degree on the GoldWing when I had the engine out and it did make a difference in acceleration but did nothing for fuel economy. The wing also had over a hundred thousand on it at the time. I don't know if there is that much of an advantage on a Valkyrie I/S.
Anyway plugging along, I'll keep ya posted...Give me your thoughts on the belts and trigger wheel......Thanks   

[Thunderbolt]

As far as the belts I would not add another unknown into the mix until it runs.  Leave the cover off when you change the pulse generators if that gets it going.  Then change the belts once it runs.  From the front of the cover I think it is the top right cap screw that has some Loctite on it and I broke mine trying to take it off.  Most people say to run it before you try to unscrew it, but you obviously can't do that.  You might want to put your allen wrench in it and heat the wrench to warm the threads before you turn it. 
Did you do the tests on the IPG coils?  Were they open or shorted?  If you checked them from the ICM connector and you see a short or continuity to both coils  then they are electrically good.  If you do not see continuity or a short then the wiring might be open to the coil.  It might not be the coil after all.

[Wayne H]

TB, I did check the wires. I had continuity on the white/yellow and nothing on the white/blue. The wires from the ICM to the PG connector check out OK.
Removing the left side pod surfaced another problem with a bracket rubbing the lower side of the radiator. This is a bracket I installed in 99 when I owned the bike the first time. Guess it got bent and pushed into the radiator somewhere along the way.

The PGs have been ordered, should be here mid week. If this works good.....if not I'll keep looking.
I did have uninterrupted 12 volts to both wires on the coils when I checked.   

[Thunderbolt]

Thanks for keeping this updated Wayne.  If you had no continuity between the green/black and one of the two other ones then I think you found the problem.  Should have had continuity to both the white/yellow and the white/blue from the green/black.  Keep up the good work.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

[IamGCW]

Keep the updates coming.  I have been wondering what is causing the issue.

Gil

[Chrisj CMA]

Battery is fully charged voltage reads 13 and 10.5 when cranking but will not fire. Used jumper cables hooked to the car...Same problem. Not starting.......

10.5 while cranking.....seems to me THAT is the problem. 

--did you try jumping it to your car battery?

You said you got a new battery, but did you just fill it with acid and stick it in the bike......if so, NO GOOD, its rare that doing that gives a new battery enough amps to fire the Valkyrie ignition.

[John Schmidt]

Battery is fully charged voltage reads 13 and 10.5 when cranking but will not fire. Used jumper cables hooked to the car...Same problem. Not starting.......

10.5 while cranking.....seems to me THAT is the problem. 

--did you try jumping it to your car battery?

You said you got a new battery, but did you just fill it with acid and stick it in the bike......if so, NO GOOD, its rare that doing that gives a new battery enough amps to fire the Valkyrie ignition.

Chris, look at the quote you copied, then look at your advice re. hooking to a car battery.  

[Chrisj CMA]

Battery is fully charged voltage reads 13 and 10.5 when cranking but will not fire. Used jumper cables hooked to the car...Same problem. Not starting.......

10.5 while cranking.....seems to me THAT is the problem. 

--did you try jumping it to your car battery?

You said you got a new battery, but did you just fill it with acid and stick it in the bike......if so, NO GOOD, its rare that doing that gives a new battery enough amps to fire the Valkyrie ignition.

Chris, look at the quote you copied, then look at your advice re. hooking to a car battery.  

Sorry...read too fast..........my bad.  It just sounds so perfect as a weak battery..........

[Wayne H]

Big six runs again.... Installed the new PG's today and hit starter button engine fired up so fast it almost startled me.

Many thanks to all for your suggestions and offers of help. I now have a good idea where all the spare parts are hanging out.

My Special thanks to Terry for sending all the schematics and sticking with me through the guessing part.

Haven't decided for sure on the belts yet...Old ones look good but they do have a hundred and forty thousand miles on them. But! No guarantee new ones would be better.

[larue]

Glad it's back to life Wayne  good input from all these great members That are always there when in need.

[Thunderbolt]

and all that jazz.  That's great news Wayne.!!!!!!!!!  As far as I'm concerned this was a valuable learning experience at your expense of course but valuable to all of us in the future none the less.  Now if we can just remember what it was we did and what we didn't to troubleshoot the problem we will be lucky.  I guess that is one thing I miss now that I retired is the challenges like yours that kept me interested at the old phone factory. 
Just to clarify I think you said you had continuity/short on the white/yellow to the common and no continuity/short on the white/blue, is that right?  If so you should still see the same thing now that you have the old ones on the work bench.  The good one should show a short and the other one will be open.  What I am trying to make sure of is that one was actually open and that it was not just out of alignment enough that the pulse that it generated was too low to activate the ECM.
I know it doesn't matter since the life has been breathed back into the dragon, but it might for the next time.
Congratulations on sticking with it.  Most folks would have given up and paid the dealer to change a lot of parts that were perfectly good.