Can Synthetic Oil cause clutch pre- mature wear or Failure

[Old Geezer Richard]

When I had called the Dealerships about prices on OEM Clutch Parts for my Fat Lady , I wanted to ask the Service Mgr. about what tools would I need if needed  and both Services Mgr.'s had asked me what oil type was I using and how many miles did my Valk had ..... I told him that she had 97, 000 miles and I used 20w - 50 Amsoil with the Amsoil Filter ....  They told me that the Synthetic oil's were great for the engines but to slick for the clutch disc's and would eventually cause pre- mature wear and of course recommended using the Honda Conventional Oil  ..... They said plain old conventional oil was the best for the clutch discs in the long run ..... I looked on both Work Books and they do not mention using a Syn. Oil per se , just which weight oil is best for what temp. your living in and Assuming they were referring to using a conventional oil so is there any truth about the use of Syn. Oil and causing pre-mature wear clutch wear or is it all Bull Shirt Sale Job ..... Thanks the Geezer

[gordonv]

From a dealer, I would take the info with a bag of salt.

Oils, as long as they meet the manufacturing specifications, should be oil.

I use the T6 synthetic in my MC and BMW car. The car manual actually says to use diesel oil. Unless someone can show that this action will cause premature failure of ??, I will continue using it.

[98valk]

honda sells a syn w/moly which was recommended for the 1500GW yrs ago for gear noise. syn oil will not hurt clutches unless the clutch is undersized for the HP level of the engine like the early 1200 bandits were.
The GL1500 clutch is extremely robust and are good for 200-300k miles maybe more.

what is wrong with your clutch?
And a word of advice unless a service manager and/or mechanic has a service bulletin in their hand and u read it, run from them as fast as u can. most think they know as much or more as the design engineers but they don't. they know want to say to take your money.

[WintrSol]

I agree with what was said before - if you use Amsoil for motorcycles. It has been certified for use with wet clutches, and does not interfere, or cause premature failure, of said clutches. Oil for autos is not tested with wet clutches, and many are 'energy conserving', meaning they are too slick for wet clutches. Stick with motorcycle rated oils (Rotella T6 is also MC rated), and your clutch, and the rest of the engine and transmission, will be fine.

[Paladin528]

The rating on the bottle should include "MA" for motorcycles.
Rotella meets this specification and has for a couple of years now.
There is no real difference between the synthetic and conventional oils of the same viscosity rating except that the shear properties of the synthetic as well as heat resistance are far superior.  The shear characteristics are why it makes you tranny quiet.
There should be little or no effect on the clutch or its components because the viscosity values are the same.
Using a Motor oil with additives or "Energy Conserving" oil will destroy the clutch in fairly short order

[98valk]

http://www.lngpublishing.com/LNGmagazine/index.cfm
this months issue
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/e9f4b3fd#/e9f4b3fd/1

see article  Two-wheelers love oil too!

they have a pic of the new goldwing valkyrie as a bonus.
JASO spec'd motorcycle oil are basically the same specs as heavy-duty diesel oil standards.
JASO does not test oils, manufactures pay a fee to JASO and state their oil meets the specs.

see article, another grade for the heavy-duty upgrade?

even better diesel oils coming into the market much better wear protection and using a 10w30 for better mpg.

I have posted my used oil analysis before using 10w30 diesel oil for 8k miles from the hot summer through a cold winter riding with the bike sitting for 1 month, one of the toughest conditions for an oil. UOA came back normal to low wear and oil was still good for continued use, at least another 2k miles.

[jdp]

I'm a Harley mechanic and synthetic oil will not burn your clutch out, awhile back Harley said you had to use a certain primary oil for the clutch now they said you can run synthetic in primary,motor and transmission,also you can mix conventional oil with synthetic, lucas sells it in 10w40, which I have been using in my water cooled bikes for ever, if your having clutch problems its in the clutch system.

[98valk]

I'm a Harley mechanic and synthetic oil will not burn your clutch out, awhile back Harley said you had to use a certain primary oil for the clutch now they said you can run synthetic in primary,motor and transmission,also you can mix conventional oil with synthetic, lucas sells it in 10w40, which I have been using in my water cooled bikes for ever, if your having clutch problems its in the clutch system.

much better oils out there than Lucas and at a lower cost IMHO,
http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/consolidated%20HDEO%202015.html
 also watch lucas they get slammed every once in a while for bad product such as this 15w40 which tested to be 10w40
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs120/1103404816784/archive/1114545553890.html

and there were issues a few yrs back with their gear oil and I believe it was excessive foaming.

[Old Geezer Richard]

Thank you all for your comprehensive feed back , I was just curious if there was any truth in their statement but my little voice was telling me that these two guy's were full of Bull crap about the Syn. Oil's causing a pre-mature clutch wear , because if that were true why do 95% or better Valk rider's use the Syn. oil , it's just another ploy to get a customer's rattled and get in your pockets and sell Honda Conventional Oil at the same time  ..... I posted earlier about possibly having clutch problems and the symptoms I am experiencing ......  Thanks again for the feedback , the Geezer   

[Paladin528]

Keep one big thing in mind.  HONDA, HARLEY or any other bike manufacturer DO NOT MANUFACTURE OIL.
They pay other companies to label the oil with a honda label (or Harley or whatever) and they sell it ot you at a grossly inflated price. 
Also Base oils,  either Synthetic or conventional, are also only refined by a few companies.  the refined base oil is sold in bulk to other companies that add in their additive package to the base oil.  Pretty much all of the refiners also make and sell motor oils from their base oil stock.

[Marinakorp]

My understanding is... as long as it is NOT energy conserving... dino or synth would be fine....

[98valk]

Keep one big thing in mind.  HONDA, HARLEY or any other bike manufacturer DO NOT MANUFACTURE OIL.
They pay other companies to label the oil with a honda label (or Harley or whatever) and they sell it ot you at a grossly inflated price. 
Also Base oils,  either Synthetic or conventional, are also only refined by a few companies.  the refined base oil is sold in bulk to other companies that add in their additive package to the base oil.  Pretty much all of the refiners also make and sell motor oils from their base oil stock.

yep.
about 10 yrs ago motorcycle consumer news did a lot of oil testing. Honda brand oil was near the bottom.
Amsoil, Mobile and 15w40 diesel oils came out best. I tend to remember only Motul of m/c specific oil was good compared to the top ones. but of course 4 times the price.
and oil today is 10 times better than 10 yrs ago.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I run Amsoil in my Concours 14s. Smooth shifting, no issues with clutches and I guarantee they're putting more power through their clutches than either of my Valkyries.

The F6s (and their predecessors the GL1100s and 1200, when I owned them) get semi-synth oil - Golden Spectro and HP4. No issues with anything motor related in 500,000+ miles except for a flaky starter clutch in one of the GL1100As. (This was a known problem with some of those bikes and the more slippery synthetics resulted in hit-or-miss engagement every once in a while. A second stab of the starter button almost always fixed it.)

As has been pointed out before, moly is bad for a wet clutch...but that dealer is full of crap for stating that using non-moly synthetics will cause a slipping or plate burning problem.

[98valk]

As has been pointed out before, moly is bad for a wet clutch...

Friction modifiers are the thing to avoid NOT moly.
moly only makes the clutch slip in high PPM at elevated temps and mainly its the starter clutch.
 The trans clutch is just starting to when the PPM is at 500 and above and at elevated oil temps above 80C, at 100 to 200 ppm slippage was not observed and actually the friction coefficient went up slightly when temps where at 100-130C. the automatic centrifugal clutches used in scooters slip the most with even low ppm of moly.
SAE paper 961217 is where the above is from.

so only oils with higher than 200ppm of moly should be avoided according the SAE report.

most motorcycle oils have moly in them including the mobil 1 m/c oils last time I checked they were about 100 ppm. a lot of the diesel oils used in m/c have moly in them. even honda has a moly oil recomended for their engines.
See www.bobistheoilguy.com oil analysis sections.

Friction modifiers are the thing to avoid. Not moly which is actually good for an engine.

[jdp]

If you change your oil and filter like your supposed to you wont have any problems, most motorcycle people change the oil and filter on a regular basis anyway, just to have a piece of mind, stick with a top brand oil and weight your book says

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Richard I have ran mobil 1   15W50  syn. automobile oil in my valk from the day I bought it. The bike had 56K on it when I got it. the clutch did go out on it at 160K but it was the rivets and not the dics that broke. The bike now has 190K on it and just got a fresh oil change last week. Mobil 1 15w50 has no fiction reducers or moly. I change it every 5000 miles

[Firefighter]

Synthetic oil should not break down as fast as conventional oil, and in some cases lubricates better, so they are advertised to go longer between oil changes.

I am a oil changer, way I was taught. Maybe if I rode 2000 miles a month I would use synthetic so I could go further between changes, but I don't ride nearly that much, so I use conventional oil.

My thinking is synthetic gets just as dirty as any other oil, also our wet clutches run in this oil and they wear and deposit a certain amount trash along with what ever deposits the engine leaves behind, so I feel better just using my Dino oil. That's me, I think these engines are pretty bulletproof, keep good oil and clean filter and they will probably outlast most of us.

[Brian]

Hey guys,
It's been a while since I have posted anything here but do check in to see what is being posted. I know the oil subject is always a hot topic but I need to ask this, after using synthetic in any motor do you have to stay with it and not switch back to conventional ever?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to all !

[98valk]

Hey guys,
It's been a while since I have posted anything here but do check in to see what is being posted. I know the oil subject is always a hot topic but I need to ask this, after using synthetic in any motor do you have to stay with it and not switch back to conventional ever?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to all !

No.  and just about all dino oil today is actually a semi-synthetic to some degree. "synthetic" is kinda a bad word when it comes to oils esp today and really doesn't mean anything except as a marketing term. suggest read the court case castrol vs mobil and some of the trade magazines, such as Lube's n' Greases.

[Brian]

Hey guys,
It's been a while since I have posted anything here but do check in to see what is being posted. I know the oil subject is always a hot topic but I need to ask this, after using synthetic in any motor do you have to stay with it and not switch back to conventional ever?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to all !

No.  and just about all dino oil today is actually a semi-synthetic to some degree. "synthetic" is kinda a bad word when it comes to oils esp today and really doesn't mean anything except as a marketing term. suggest read the court case castrol vs mobil and some of the trade magazines, such as Lube's n' Greases.

Thanks,

[Old Geezer Richard]

 It seems the Oil Topic seems to be a controversial subject and seems to bring out some interesting comments about this subject ....  I'm a firm believer in asking questions about our Valk's , because that's how we learn about our bikes besides reading the Good Book ....  I regularly change the the oil & filter every 5,000 miles with 20w - 50 Amsoil with the Amsoil filter  .....  Like I mentioned those two guy's who tried to Bull crap me about the Horror's of using Syn. Oil are paid Stealership Salesmen , by the way I re-built the clutch master cylinder and bled the line several time just make sure any and all air bubbles were purged and now my clutch works just like new , shift smooth up & down AND now I can hit Neutral any time just like before and No More Shuttering when letting the clutch out , just a smooth get up and go .....  So I'm guessing the whole problem was in the clutch master cylinder , thank you Lord .... Thanks for all the good info , Thanks the Geezer   

[98valk]

any synthetic in these engines can go 10k miles.  Honda specifies 8k mile change with their oil.

I did oil analysis with amsoil 10w30 diesel oil, 8k miles and still was good for continued use, all wear metals were in normal range.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,48432.0.html

there are some reasons not to use a 20w50, unless specific extreme use is happening.
20w50 actually can increase wear esp during startup and higher heat spots if not needed, due to the high viscosity.

great read
Lets Talk Motor Oil – It is So Very Misunderstood
Chapter One - Motor Oil 101
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

[tjohnson]

Had my 99 Interstate clutch redone back in Septmeber, and the Honda shop installed synthetic oil per my request. Nothing was said by them about premature wear on the clutches. My bike had 91,xxx miles on it when the clutch gave up, and all I have ever ran it in was 20w-50 full Valvoline synthetic MA approved. Of course, I have no clue what the PO did to cause the early failure. So I think you got the BS line.
-Tim

[Bighead]

why does this post have almost 30 replies and 630 views the answer I'd NO.

[O-B-1]

honda sells a syn w/moly which was recommended for the 1500GW yrs ago for gear noise. syn oil will not hurt clutches unless the clutch is undersized for the HP level of the engine like the early 1200 bandits were.

Synthetic oil will not damage the clutch. I am fairly sure using oils with friction additives like molybdenum WILL damage our wet clutches.

If the SAE grade symbol on the back has "ENERGY CONSERVING" on the bottom, avoid it like the herpes.

[98valk]

honda sells a syn w/moly which was recommended for the 1500GW yrs ago for gear noise. syn oil will not hurt clutches unless the clutch is undersized for the HP level of the engine like the early 1200 bandits were.

Synthetic oil will not damage the clutch. I am fairly sure using oils with friction additives like molybdenum WILL damage our wet clutches.

If the SAE grade symbol on the back has "ENERGY CONSERVING" on the bottom, avoid it like the herpes.

moly is not a problem, most motorcycle oils have it, Mobil 1 does. please search my posts on the subject.

[grepper]

why does this post have almost 30 replies and 630 views the answer I'd NO.

I'm on 4 other motorcycle forums, oil threads are always a joke.  Everyone has an opinion, some stronger than others.
People banter back and fourth on what's the best oil, some know better than others.  The rest of us just sit back and watch.

As for me, I go with the manufactures suggestions.  The engineers at Honda know what they are doing. 

[chris1998]

Hi Richard,

Simple answer to the oil question. Use the recommended Honda oil. See Manual in the fluids section. I put 103K  on my 2000 Standard and I sold it with no problems. Too many people try to improve on what the engineers design.

Ride safe,
Chris

[Bagger John - #3785]

Hi Richard,

Simple answer to the oil question. Use the recommended Honda oil. See Manual in the fluids section. I put 103K  on my 2000 Standard and I sold it with no problems. Too many people try to improve on what the engineers design.

In reference to the bolded, engineers design to a specified price/function point.

There is an adage: "You can have it good, cheap and fast. Pick two of the three."

Certain facets of the Valkyrie design can in fact be improved. The headlight power switching scheme (Std/Tourer) and the suspension (all models) are but two examples.

[Paladin528]

Hi Richard,

Simple answer to the oil question. Use the recommended Honda oil. See Manual in the fluids section. I put 103K  on my 2000 Standard and I sold it with no problems. Too many people try to improve on what the engineers design.

Ride safe,
Chris

Honda doesn't make oil.  They make cars, bikes and recreational products, Even planes.  They do not make oil.  there are only a few companies that actually refine and produce motor oil.

All...yes ALL oil is tested to a standard.  thats what the numbers are for.  15W-50 is always the same as any other 15W-50 oil.  It was subjected to a test to determine that it met that specification.  There is even a stamp on the bottle that says it meets that specification as well as others like SP, SJ and the like.
The different comes in with additives.  Things that make the oils "better" (reduce wear and corrosion) some...SOME of those additives are not good in a wet clutch system like the Valkyrie and many other bikes because, after all, the clutch should not slip which is counter intuitive to what oil is actually for. 
Yes the oil is there to cool and lubricate the engine however there is a compromise at work here. Make it too slippery and the engine will last forever (not a worry on the Valk) but the bike wont go any where because the clutch will just spin.  This is considered a bad thing.
Remove the slippery stuff just enough that the clutch wont slip but the engine will be lubricated and you have yourself a winner.
The good thing is, the guys that make this came up with a standard just for this situation.  They call it the API-MA rating.  The API-MA rating is specific to motorcycles with a wet clutch and certifies that the oil conforms to the specification and is safe for wet clutch operation.  This oil will NEVER sport the ENERGY CONSERVING statement on the API label because there is a definite lack of energy conserving additives (slippery stuff) in the oil.
If you want to use the correct oil pick one that carries the viscosity rating that specified in the owners manual and that also carries the API MA rating.  Whether it comes from a dinosaur or a Laboratory makes little to no difference if you change it regularly.
If you ride in very HOT climates I do suggest the Laboratory stuff as it does stand up better to high temperatures than dinosaur oil.
and NO it wont hurt your clutch if everything above is taken into account.

[98valk]

Hi Richard,

Simple answer to the oil question. Use the recommended Honda oil. See Manual in the fluids section. I put 103K  on my 2000 Standard and I sold it with no problems. Too many people try to improve on what the engineers design.

Ride safe,
Chris

it states OR Equivalent motor oil  API SF or SG, both which are now obsolete classifications.

[Cracker Jack]

Hi Richard,

Simple answer to the oil question. Use the recommended Honda oil. See Manual in the fluids section. I put 103K  on my 2000 Standard and I sold it with no problems. Too many people try to improve on what the engineers design.

Ride safe,
Chris

Honda doesn't make oil.  They make cars, bikes and recreational products, Even planes.  They do not make oil.  there are only a few companies that actually refine and produce motor oil.

All...yes ALL oil is tested to a standard.  thats what the numbers are for.  15W-50 is always the same as any other 15W-50 oil.  It was subjected to a test to determine that it met that specification.  There is even a stamp on the bottle that says it meets that specification as well as others like SP, SJ and the like.
The different comes in with additives.  Things that make the oils "better" (reduce wear and corrosion) some...SOME of those additives are not good in a wet clutch system like the Valkyrie and many other bikes because, after all, the clutch should not slip which is counter intuitive to what oil is actually for. 
Yes the oil is there to cool and lubricate the engine however there is a compromise at work here. Make it too slippery and the engine will last forever (not a worry on the Valk) but the bike wont go any where because the clutch will just spin.  This is considered a bad thing.
Remove the slippery stuff just enough that the clutch wont slip but the engine will be lubricated and you have yourself a winner.
The good thing is, the guys that make this came up with a standard just for this situation.  They call it the API-MA rating.  The API-MA rating is specific to motorcycles with a wet clutch and certifies that the oil conforms to the specification and is safe for wet clutch operation.  This oil will NEVER sport the ENERGY CONSERVING statement on the API label because there is a definite lack of energy conserving additives (slippery stuff) in the oil.
If you want to use the correct oil pick one that carries the viscosity rating that specified in the owners manual and that also carries the API MA rating.  Whether it comes from a dinosaur or a Laboratory makes little to no difference if you change it regularly.
If you ride in very HOT climates I do suggest the Laboratory stuff as it does stand up better to high temperatures than dinosaur oil.
and NO it wont hurt your clutch if everything above is taken into account.

Paladin528, you shore know a lot about oil!

[98valk]

Hi Richard,

Simple answer to the oil question. Use the recommended Honda oil. See Manual in the fluids section. I put 103K  on my 2000 Standard and I sold it with no problems. Too many people try to improve on what the engineers design.

Ride safe,
Chris

Honda doesn't make oil.  They make cars, bikes and recreational products, Even planes.  They do not make oil.  there are only a few companies that actually refine and produce motor oil.

All...yes ALL oil is tested to a standard.  thats what the numbers are for.  15W-50 is always the same as any other 15W-50 oil.  It was subjected to a test to determine that it met that specification.  There is even a stamp on the bottle that says it meets that specification as well as others like SP, SJ and the like.
The different comes in with additives.  Things that make the oils "better" (reduce wear and corrosion) some...SOME of those additives are not good in a wet clutch system like the Valkyrie and many other bikes because, after all, the clutch should not slip which is counter intuitive to what oil is actually for. 
Yes the oil is there to cool and lubricate the engine however there is a compromise at work here. Make it too slippery and the engine will last forever (not a worry on the Valk) but the bike wont go any where because the clutch will just spin.  This is considered a bad thing.
Remove the slippery stuff just enough that the clutch wont slip but the engine will be lubricated and you have yourself a winner.
The good thing is, the guys that make this came up with a standard just for this situation.  They call it the API-MA rating.  The API-MA rating is specific to motorcycles with a wet clutch and certifies that the oil conforms to the specification and is safe for wet clutch operation.  This oil will NEVER sport the ENERGY CONSERVING statement on the API label because there is a definite lack of energy conserving additives (slippery stuff) in the oil.
If you want to use the correct oil pick one that carries the viscosity rating that specified in the owners manual and that also carries the API MA rating.  Whether it comes from a dinosaur or a Laboratory makes little to no difference if you change it regularly.
If you ride in very HOT climates I do suggest the Laboratory stuff as it does stand up better to high temperatures than dinosaur oil.
and NO it wont hurt your clutch if everything above is taken into account.

Paladin528, you shore know a lot about oil!

Seriously CJ, did u read my posts? Paladin's post makes so many left turns I'm not even going to respond to it.
Except, There is no API MA rating. API does not have that rating. JASO has the MA rating. Read my earlier post which is from an lubrication industry professional magazine.
There are plenty of test out showing that some oils are not what the bottle says they are, such as lucas http://www.pqiamerica.com/May%202013/lucas.htm
I swear just about everybody ignores my posts or has me blocked.  oh well.

[Paladin528]

Sorry my bad.  It is JASO and not API. 
if you make enough left turns eventually you are back where you started

[Paladin528]

Oil samples provided for initial standards testing are "best in breed" oil samples.  They are made in small batches to prove the formulation.  Those samples are what gets the rating.  once large scale production is underway there can be slight changes to the formulations that may cause the change in viscosity ratings.  Slipping from a 15 to a 10 is not a huge deal and the average engine wouldn't care one way or the other.
Go from a 15 to a 0 and you may have an issue.
Yes you may not be getting exactly what is printed on the bottle but it will be very close.

The initial question was can synthetic oil cause premature wear and the answer is NO.  but there are the caveats I mention above.  Energy conserving oil WILL MOST DEFINITELY cause your clutch to slip and cause excessive heat and damage in the process.

Use oil of the equivalent viscosity and rating that the vehicle manufacturer suggests.  They even give you a little chart that shows options depending on your average ambient temperature.  it's in the owners manual.