Analysis of Used Oil

[Rio Wil]

Has anyone ever had their used oil analyzed to determine the basic contaminants and average particle size of said contaminants.  Oil filters routinely  have their filter abilities expressed in yada yada microns.....how does that relate to the typical particle size???

[donaldcc]

  I got the containers from Blackstone Labs to do that about a year or two ago but never got around to it.  Change oil regularly,  never seem to burn a drop and seemed like a waste of time.  Here is link to interesting article on how the analysis is done at Blackstone.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-2/

[6tigo]

A micron (Micrometer), (um) is 1/1000 of a millimetre.  An inch is 25.4mm so there are 25,400 microns to the inch.

A white blood cell is about 8 - 10 microns in diameter.

[Rio Wil]

Still looking for the sizes of the particles suspended in the oil, the linf referenced measures ppm but doesn't mention particle size.....that I could find anyway.

[98valk]

some UOAs.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,17708.0.html

[JaysGone]

Ive had it done on my road racing cars years ago.
It really told me nothing usefull.

Just read here best site Ive found on oil related issues.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

[Rio Wil]

What I am really looking for is the size of the particles suspended in the oil, not so much the number of particles. The curiosity factor here is:  if a filter claims to capture particles down to say 10 microns and the size of the particles in the oil (that give it a dark color) is 2-3 microns......does anything really get captured in the filter.  I understand that given a sufficient number of 2-3 micron particles, that the filter could become clogged and totally ineffective.....so, what is the reality? Do 99.99 % of the particles make it through the filter because of their small size.  I suspect that the metal particles from gears, bearings, bushings and the clutch fiber particles are so small that they are routinely circulated through the filter without being caught and thus through out the oil system without causing any issues. If so, then the trash that is routinely caught in the filter is the large particles that break off from flashings or larger particles that break off a disintegrating clutch or the like......given this, then all filters will routinely do the job of capturing large particles, the small particles will pass through and remain suspended in solution. If this is a reasonable thesis, then it makes little difference (other than construction quality) as to what filter is used and what the claimed filtration is.....one could us a Kleenex and get about the same results.

[Ricky-D]

I agree with you.

My view is all the filter really does is remove water from the oil.

There are those who feel differently.

I change my filter every fourth, or so, oil change.

***

[JaysGone]

I agree with you.

My view is all the filter really does is remove water from the oil.

There are those who feel differently.

I change my filter every fourth, or so, oil change.

***

I change my filter 3 or 4 times before the oil.
Go figure??

[98valk]

Rio,

a pure1 filters down to 12-15 micro, anything lower and u have to use a bypass filter system. SAE reports and other testing has show most wear is caused by 1-10 micro particles.
amsoil and SAE reports show that most damaging particles are introduced through poor air filtration, this is why a triblogist can tell from UOA if one is using a K&N filter or OEM.
our engines last 100k of miles with just std oil filters and airfilters.
as u can see from my UOA, same oil 2 yrs, 8k miles, summer and winter riding and there was no wear and the oil was still good for continue use.
bobistheoilguy has a ton of info, see the bypass filter section, they do have toilet paper filters which filter down to sub-micron level.
just google and a lot will come up.
because an oil turns dark doesn't really mean too much.

[tonyfan70]

"they do have toilet paper filters which filter down to sub-micron level."

Interesting. Filters down to that small and yet my fingers poke right through it.

[04strider]

Engines that have plain bearings (non-roller) for the crankshaft/rods etc, use a hydrodynamic wedge of oil supplied under pressure to prevent metal to metal contact.  The  crankshaft and rods actually ride on a film of oil.  This film is usually about 10-15 microns thick.  If particles suspended in the oil are smaller than this size, then they pass through the oil film gap without doing any damage, whereas a particle that is larger than the film thickness >15m is what causes the scoring and wear damage as it is forced thru between the bearing and bearing surface. This scoring and wear creates more particles which repeat the process.  If the particles are not removed, the concentration becomes higher and higher, and the condition steadily worsens.  So as you can see, it is the larger particles that cause most of the damage.  This is why a good oil filter that removes particles down to the 10m size or so is valuable.  Most "name brand" oil filters only filter to about 45m.  A premium filter such as the Pure One, Mobil 1, etc, that are rated to 10m should in theory extend the life of the engine by excluding the most damaging sized particles.  But beware, a tighter filter will also reach saturation of the filter media faster as a result.  That is why it is important to replace at each change.  Also, most standard filter elements are made of paper, and are not effective at removing water, it only saturates the paper clogging the pores and rendering the media inoperative.

[Brian]

In a previous job where I was responsible for large Chillers oil analysis was completed on a regular schedule. This was started when the machines were new. The reports were always compared to the base line to show increases in metal wear. We used these reports to gage oil and filter change frequency and then compare time the wear metal levels were increasing. If rapid levels of bearing metals were noted or moisture the machine was scheduled for a tear down and inspection replacing all bearings before a major issue happened. I feel without a good baseline the only good thing to look for is water or antifreeze.

I may be off base here, but to only change the oil without a new filter is being cheap, but to each their own. If you want to see if the engine is wearing, tear a part the used filter. We also had large CAT diesel generators. An older mechnaic came in to perform a oil change and tore the old filters a part to check the media for metal. I let the used oil sit in the drain pan for a while to let the heavy stuff settle down. So far so good.

I learm something new ever day and this site helps too.

[Rio Wil]

CA, Brian, 04strider....this is what I was looking for in terms of suspended particle size and what effects might be seen as they travel through the filter and oil passages to the bearings.  Now comes the dilema,  I ran a '77 Toyota pickup 4 cylinder for 380K miles and never did any engine work other than water pump, alternator, plugs, etc.  The PU had a steady diet of Fram oil filters throughout its life.  I used a variety of oil brands, no synthetic at all, and maintained a 5K oil and filter change interval.  Additional vehicles with no bearing issues and using Frams include:

'66 pontiac tempest  180K miles
'74 ford wagon 130K
'77 triumph tr7 280K
'98 dodge pu 190K

Shucks, I forget the rest of them, but the point is, they all had a steady diet of Fram filters.  If the Frams are so bad they only filter asteroids bigger than the moon, how did those vehicles last so long. This is not an attempt to support of beat the drum for Fram, it is just stating the fact that this was the only filter used and the engines lasted pretty good life spans.

I appreciate the info about particle size and it seems reasonable that at some dimension they would act like an abrasive and cause very significant and quick wear. Oil analysis seems to bear out that fact, but the disparity in particle filtration capability of different filters  seems to contradict the evidence.  Kind of makes one wonder if we are not drinking the 'Harley kool-aid" in reference to what is a decent filter vs what is a practical and functional filter..

[Patrick]

Fram uses both a paper and other fibrous type filter media which they glue to the paperlike end plate.. They say that procedure allows for better sealing which eliminates oil from skirting past the filter media as in other metal end plate type filters.. Fram also says their better grade filters filter down to 10 microns while the cheaper grade orange filer filters to 15 microns and this is multiple pass testing, not just single pass as done by most other filter companies..
Also oil filters don't do much for water,, water disappears once the engine temp increases beyond 180-190º[ other parts of the engine will get much hotter away from  the sensor and boil off the water]..
We regularly cut open filters and take a look just to see if the engine is making metal.. It doesn't happen much anymore like it used to..
Personally we pretty much use Fram for automotive and Champion for aircraft and don't have any trouble with either.. I'd like to be able to use Fram in the aircooled,, they are a lot cheaper and just as well made..

[98valk]

o4strider, u are incorrect in most of what u posted.
listed are studies that prove otherwise that smaller then 10 microns do indeed cause damage.
http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/938604995/m/334102788

Rio,
in last post has been debated many times on BITOG.
oil is designed to keep a lot of the contaminents in suspension, larger ones are caught by the filter, a by-pass filter will catch the smaller ones. This will allow extended drain intervals.
when people state that they have vehicles with 150k miles and over with just regular OCs 3-5kmiles, what is being done is the wear causing particles are being removed. However todays oils do allow longer change intervals with no increased wear and filters actually filter better the longer they are in service, larger particles fill the larger holes and become part of the filter media. There is a SAE report which shows that using a new filter every 3k oil change actually increased wear. that is a whole other debate on forums.
so for long engine life the particles have to removed, and there are two ways to do it as stated above.
there are tests which do show that the pure1, mobil1 and amsoil filters do filter down to 10-12 micron range with high efficiency #s.
I use an oversize pure1 (w/amsoil 10w30/30 HD diesel oil for the bike) and if avail oversize for all my vehicles.

[Patrick]

I don't know what happened,, the last half [couple more paragraphs] of my post disappeared..

[98valk]

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/aftermarket/tsb-af-2007-07-25%20oil%20filters%20particle%20size%20and%20engine%20wear.pdf


donaldson filters is the maker of the filter technology that amsoil is using.

[Rio Wil]

Thanks for the discussion everyone, there are a number of interesting takeaways here:

-Change your filter too often (per oil change interval) and you increase engine wear (larger unclogged clean pores don't filter the smaller particles (2-15 micron) effectively.

-Don't change your filter every oil change interval and avail yourself of the increased filtering capability of a partially clogged filter (but you risk inadequate oil flow).

-Fiber Filters with pores small enough (5-15 micron) to capture some small particles likely won't allow enough oil flow due to pore size.

-Particles larger than 20-22 microns generally are too big to enter the intra-bearing spaces and cause damage but they are also easily filtered out by all but the worst filters.

-Not sure how to rationalize high mileage engines (150k and more) using a poor filter (ie, fram)

Interest stuff, I have found I have gravitated to Napa filters over the past 10 years and use them in my F150 and the wifes PT Cruiser.  I still use Walmarts 7317 filter made by Champion....buy them from Champion on  line for $2.97 each...the bike has 170K using this filter so it must be OK?

So, I am not sure any of us would like long enough to determine that we lengthened our engine life by using a 2-15 micron filter vs a 15-20 micron filter vs a 20-whatever filter. These engines last so long using basic stuff , how could one prove you got 300K using exotic parts vs others that get the same 300k and bought cheap parts and oil.....tis a puzzle!!  So I say, just change yer oil and filter at some reasonable interval and ride it like ya stole it!!!!

[F6Dave]

As with any oil topic, we beat this one to death!  But I am curious, has anyone else (I've seen only one test report posted) had their Valk oil analyzed?  My understanding is that there's much more info in an analysis than particle size.  For instance, high chromium can indicate ring wear, high lead or copper might indicate bearing wear, and high silicone can indicate dirt getting into the engine, which could be caused by an intake or filter leak.  Maybe the wet clutch and integral tranny of a MC could have additional indicators as well.  It would be interesting to compare a few analysis results.

I do have a comment on Fram.  I haven't used their oil filters in years, but a few years ago I put a fram air filter on my F-150.  It is one of those cone or tubular shaped filters.  When I went to change it, the glued on plastic end cap had loosened and fallen off, so plenty of unfiltered air was getting in.  No more Frams for me.

[Rio Wil]

CA posted this link below and has some good data:

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,17708.0.html