Another Fuel/Tank/Petcock question - Fixed - Bad Petcock

[Steve-L]

I recently purchased a very nice 2000 Valk Tourer with 31K miles. I believe at one time the tank had been changed, as I was given 2 keys for the tank, and 2 keys for the ignition/saddlebags. So there is fact 1 to keep in mind.

The bike ran beautiful when I test rode it, but that was only a few miles, not a full day.

I've started to put some miles on the bike, now that Spring is here, and I noticed that infrequently, but maybe once or twice in a days riding, the bike would "Stumble" or "Stutter" for a few moments when I was in 5th gear, and slowly accelerating or just giving a little more gas to keep speed while going up an incline. It would stutter similar top the feeling that happens when running out of gas/hitting reserve. But eventually, after a few moments, and getting a few more rpms, it cleared up and ran fine. I initially fed it some Seafoam thinking maybe I had a high speed jet that wasn't feeding enough gas. This happens as the tach is creeping up from slightly below 3Krpm up into the 3Krpm range.

So yesterday I am out on a ride and I decided to let the bike hit reserve and then switch on reserve just to make sure it works. So I hit reserve at 155 miles, and switched to reserve. But instead of taking a few moments for reserve to kick in and the bike to start running strong, it just seemed like it ran out of gas, and died on the side of the road. I tried starting it on reserve and on run, but no dice. I didn't open the tank, but spent a few minutes thinking about this, then decided to give it another try.. I put it on reserve and it started right up. I rode 15 miles like that to the next gas station.

So today I decided to test that run/off/reserve again. I went out for a ride with plenty of gas in the tank. I switched to off and let the bike begin to stutter, then switched to reserve.. but no dice, the bike died as I coasted to a stop on the side of the road. This time I opened the tank and it started right up.

I have reviewed notes here and the tank vent hose was identified as highly probable problem. I did notice that the vent hose didn't seem kinked, but it was taking a odd route to the lower side of the engine. So I simplified the routing to make it more direct. I think this may have resolved the 5th gear stutter I was getting but I really won't know until it stops raining and I can put more miles on. I did try to replicate the problem today and couldn't do it in 20 miles of riding.

However failed again when switching to reserve.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I wanted to be complete about the 2 semi different symptoms I have. Has anyone any experience with this and hope you might have some good directions/advice to give me.

Thanks

Steve L

Finally fixed by replacing petcock.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Steve, it sounds similar to a problem I had. My Interstate has the velocity stacks, which require spacers on the tank mounts. It also has the chrome engine hanger covers on it. If I didn't put everything back together just perfectly aligned it would cause a slight bind on the petcock selector. It didn't seem noticeable, but was enough to not let the petcock ball to seat correctly. Caused the exact symptoms you described. You may not have all those things, but you might not have the petcock ball seating correctly for some reason. I solved my issue by mounted the hanger cover with studs so that I don't have to remove it every time I take the tank off.

[mrgeoff]

Well Steve, I'm not an expert, but if this was mine, I would first check the Vacuum hose from the Petcock to #6 carb...Is it kinked, partly plugged, or have a leak...??? Then I would pull the Petcock and put a rebuild kit on it and make sure it is working properly...This to me are the only things that could be the problems...Maybe some one else will know more...!!! Hope you find out what it is...Doesn't sound too difficult to fix...!!!

[Lyle Laun]

Have you considered a Pingel ?

Lyle

[Hook#3287]

I'm with Meathead on this, sounds like your petcock selection ball bearing isn't moving completely into place.

When you move the selector, you should feel and hear it move.

Inside the selector is a hole where a phillips screw is used to hold the selector on.  It's a PITA to get a screw driver set right, but try loosening it a couple of turns.

It's rare, but the selector can fail and isn't made to be fixable, although some have taken them apart.

As far as the fuel starvation goes, do you have a inline fuel filter?  Is the fuel line OEM or not?

Another check is the vent at the bottom back of the tank.  If you move the tank up slightly you should see a vent hose attached to a nipple.  Undo it and using a second hose, attach it to the nipple and check for draw.  You also need to make sure the hose you took off is free, not clogged or crushed.  Another way to check that vent is to overfill your gas tank.

Either way, sounds like you need to pull the tank and inspect both systems, venting and fuel delivery.

[Steve-L]

Steve, it sounds similar to a problem I had. My Interstate has the velocity stacks, which require spacers on the tank mounts. It also has the chrome engine hanger covers on it. If I didn't put everything back together just perfectly aligned it would cause a slight bind on the petcock selector. It didn't seem noticeable, but was enough to not let the petcock ball to seat correctly. Caused the exact symptoms you described. You may not have all those things, but you might not have the petcock ball seating correctly for some reason. I solved my issue by mounted the hanger cover with studs so that I don't have to remove it every time I take the tank off.

Meathead, interesting that you should mention this, regarding the chrome engine hanger covers. Which I do have. I took the left one off when I was checking the tank vent hose, and I noticed when I took it off, that the selector screw was not snugged but seemed slightly loose. I didn't give this much thought, until I went to put it all back together again. I did buy the Carolina Bike kit for the engine hanger covers. http://www.carolinabikeandtrike.com/Covers1.htm but they were installed by the dealer before I picked up the bike. hmmmm....

I also noticed that the little bracket that holds the petcock in place and is secured to the upper right stud, was not tightened down but was loose. I almost tightened it down but then didn't have a small 10mm wrench to get at it at the time. I'm wondering if it is supposed to be loose to allow play for that petcock selector.

But, what interest me even more about your point, is that what I did notice is that when I put the selctor back on the petcock, and tried snugging the screw that caused the selector to want to change positions, as one went from run to off to reserve. Possible caused by the tank not seating right? Although it seems like it does. (I don't have the carb stacks)

I guess this might need a little more attention. Also, when I lifted the tank, to check the vent, I didn't remove the other hoses on the petcock. I wonder of that might be causing some misalignment of the petcock hence the binding? hmmm.

Thank you for the heads up on that. I'll let you know what I discover.

[Steve-L]

Well Steve, I'm not an expert, but if this was mine, I would first check the Vacuum hose from the Petcock to #6 carb...Is it kinked, partly plugged, or have a leak...??? Then I would pull the Petcock and put a rebuild kit on it and make sure it is working properly...This to me are the only things that could be the problems...Maybe some one else will know more...!!! Hope you find out what it is...Doesn't sound too difficult to fix...!!!

Thanks, I'll check that too. I rebuild kit, replacement or one of the other (Pingel) solutions is a strong possibility, of this isn't resolved easily.

[Steve-L]

I'm with Meathead on this, sounds like your petcock selection ball bearing isn't moving completely into place.

When you move the selector, you should feel and hear it move.

Inside the selector is a hole where a phillips screw is used to hold the selector on.  It's a PITA to get a screw driver set right, but try loosening it a couple of turns.

It's rare, but the selector can fail and isn't made to be fixable, although some have taken them apart.

As far as the fuel starvation goes, do you have a inline fuel filter?  Is the fuel line OEM or not?

Another check is the vent at the bottom back of the tank.  If you move the tank up slightly you should see a vent hose attached to a nipple.  Undo it and using a second hose, attach it to the nipple and check for draw.  You also need to make sure the hose you took off is free, not clogged or crushed.  Another way to check that vent is to overfill your gas tank.

Either way, sounds like you need to pull the tank and inspect both systems, venting and fuel delivery.

Hood, thanks for the feedback. I intend to do this today. The Fuel Line appears to be OEM. Although I'm not in front of it right now and the fuel hose is not just black but see through so maybe be a replaced hose.

The tank on this bike has been replaced, hence the new keys. I bought it from a dealer on consignment, so I don't have access to the previous owner.

[Hook#3287]

I also noticed that the little bracket that holds the petcock in place and is secured to the upper right stud, was not tightened down but was loose. I almost tightened it down but then didn't have a small 10mm wrench to get at it at the time. I'm wondering if it is supposed to be loose to allow play for that petcock selector.

But, what interest me even more about your point, is that what I did notice is that when I put the selctor back on the petcock, and tried snugging the screw that caused the selector to want to change positions, as one went from run to off to reserve. Possible caused by the tank not seating right? Although it seems like it does. (I don't have the carb stacks)

The stud/bolt should be tight.  You're petcock maybe misaligned.  When installing a petcock to the tank, I make it square, so the attach point is 90 degrees.  Unless the tank or frame are damaged, the tank will seat correctly.

[Hook#3287]

In my experience, see thru gas line means aftermarket.

[Chrisj CMA]

The dealership was the last to work on that.  Well, that explains it.  They couldn't get the selector switch to function properly if the tightened everything up the way it should be.  I have seen this before and agree the problem is likely a misaligned petcock that the dealer was too lazy to correct.  Binding in that switch could have caused the gas to not be all the way shut off when you thought it was.

[Steve-L]

I also noticed that the little bracket that holds the petcock in place and is secured to the upper right stud, was not tightened down but was loose. I almost tightened it down but then didn't have a small 10mm wrench to get at it at the time. I'm wondering if it is supposed to be loose to allow play for that petcock selector.

But, what interest me even more about your point, is that what I did notice is that when I put the selctor back on the petcock, and tried snugging the screw that caused the selector to want to change positions, as one went from run to off to reserve. Possible caused by the tank not seating right? Although it seems like it does. (I don't have the carb stacks)

The stud/bolt should be tight.  You're petcock maybe misaligned.  When installing a petcock to the tank, I make it square, so the attach point is 90 degrees.  Unless the tank or frame are damaged, the tank will seat correctly.

This is something else I need to check. I did go out to the garage and list to the petcock closely while changing from run/off/reserve and there is a nice solid feel to each setting as it "seats" into that setting, and a very definitive "click" sound. This is with the screw backed out a couple/few turns.

Thank you Hook, Meathead and all for providing this valuable info. /this is my 3rd Valkyrie, I have owned one consecutively since 2001, so you would think I would know them inside out, but I've had so few problems that other than change the oil, brake pads and a few other routine maintenance tasks, I just haven't done much wrenching on them.

[Steve-L]

In my experience, see thru gas line means aftermarket.

Me too. That's why I mentioned it. There has definitely been some work done by previous owner to do with the tank. At first when they handed me the 2nd key, I thought, "oooh, maybe I've got an IS tank on this baby." But, no such luck. Still the bike is in such beautiful overall condition that it was definitely worth whatever risks I took in the purchase.

It's raining all day today and tomorrow, so I'll be riding it for a couple hundred Saturday.

I may have it squared away just by backing off the petcock screw a turn or two. The petcock sure feels and sounds like it's working.

[Steve-L]

The dealership was the last to work on that.  Well, that explains it.  They couldn't get the selector switch to function properly if the tightened everything up the way it should be.  I have seen this before and agree the problem is likely a misaligned petcock that the dealer was too lazy to correct.  Binding in that switch could have caused the gas to not be all the way shut off when you thought it was.

Thanks Chris and just to verify, alignment of the petcock to get the 90' angle out to the petcock switch, is that a simple matter of loosening the large petcock nut at the base of the petcock, and then adjusting the angle and then tightening the nut on the upper part of the petcock while keeping the angle at 90?

Thanks again all,

Steve

[Chrisj CMA]

The dealership was the last to work on that.  Well, that explains it.  They couldn't get the selector switch to function properly if the tightened everything up the way it should be.  I have seen this before and agree the problem is likely a misaligned petcock that the dealer was too lazy to correct.  Binding in that switch could have caused the gas to not be all the way shut off when you thought it was.

Thanks Chris and just to verify, alignment of the petcock to get the 90' angle out to the petcock switch, is that a simple matter of loosening the large petcock nut at the base of the petcock, and then adjusting the angle and then tightening the nut on the upper part of the petcock while keeping the angle at 90?

Thanks again all,

Steve

You are correct.

[hubcapsc]

The dealership was the last to work on that.  Well, that explains it.  They couldn't get the selector switch to function properly if the tightened everything up the way it should be.  I have seen this before and agree the problem is likely a misaligned petcock that the dealer was too lazy to correct.  Binding in that switch could have caused the gas to not be all the way shut off when you thought it was.

Thanks Chris and just to verify, alignment of the petcock to get the 90' angle out to the petcock switch, is that a simple matter of loosening the large petcock nut at the base of the petcock, and then adjusting the angle and then tightening the nut on the upper part of the petcock while keeping the angle at 90?

Thanks again all,

Steve

You are correct.

Mine's on there real square and nice. I haven't fiddled with the switch in a while (over 10,000 miles) but
I have a new air filter to put in there, so I'll be fiddling with it soon. I remember seeing how I
wanted it to be so it would not be "in a jam", and used a few washers and stuff to get it
just square. These aren't detailed instructions or anything  , but what I'm saying is that
you can make it right even if it takes a little effort... and you should...

-Mike

[gordonv]

I first thought you might have been running on reserve, getting over 150 miles. Most with a std/Tourer report more in the 140-120 mile range.

Is your key different for the tank than the ignition? Then leave it in the cap lock, and open it up when you get sputtering. If it fixes it, then you have a pinched vent tub. I think you have a partial pinched one. It can't keep up with the volume of fuel being removed at high speed.

Sounds like you already have the petcock and selector switch figured, which most likely is making it not go into reserve. I left my switch mount loose, because of those chrome hangers. The dial wasn't even screwed in originally.

[Steve-L]

I first thought you might have been running on reserve, getting over 150 miles. Most with a std/Tourer report more in the 140-120 mile range.

Is your key different for the tank than the ignition? Then leave it in the cap lock, and open it up when you get sputtering. If it fixes it, then you have a pinched vent tub. I think you have a partial pinched one. It can't keep up with the volume of fuel being removed at high speed.

Sounds like you already have the petcock and selector switch figured, which most likely is making it not go into reserve. I left my switch mount loose, because of those chrome hangers. The dial wasn't even screwed in originally.

I was hoping I had the big tank, but it isn't. I agree with you, I think I have a partial blockage.. and the key in the tank and testing it that way makes sense, but does that explain it not restarting once going to reserve? I suppose it could if it's getting only partial air because it needs to play "catch-up" to replenish all those carbs that are out of gas.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I first thought you might have been running on reserve, getting over 150 miles. Most with a std/Tourer report more in the 140-120 mile range.

Is your key different for the tank than the ignition? Then leave it in the cap lock, and open it up when you get sputtering. If it fixes it, then you have a pinched vent tub. I think you have a partial pinched one. It can't keep up with the volume of fuel being removed at high speed.

Sounds like you already have the petcock and selector switch figured, which most likely is making it not go into reserve. I left my switch mount loose, because of those chrome hangers. The dial wasn't even screwed in originally.

I was hoping I had the big tank, but it isn't. I agree with you, I think I have a partial blockage.. and the key in the tank and testing it that way makes sense, but does that explain it not restarting once going to reserve? I suppose it could if it's getting only partial air because it needs to play "catch-up" to replenish all those carbs that are out of gas.

Thats a good possibility. It takes a little while to get them filled back up.

[Steve-L]

I was surprised with the 155 before hitting reserve too. The only thing I can attribute that to is possibly the bike has TBR Cannister exhaust with the crossover, possibly giving better gas mileage and performance in the mid range and above 3Krpm is excellent.

It's been raining heavy for a couple days here so I haven't been able to get back out and do some testing after making some minor adjustments to the petcock switch. (loosen screw and reposition switch bracket.)

I'll post findings when I have something to report.

[Steve-L]

It has rained her for the last week, but today I finally got a chance to go out and test a few tweaks I made to my petcock and fuel vent hose.

First thing I did was verify that the petcock is a solid 90' angle off the tank. It was, no change there, however I made minor adjustments to the Fuel Petcock lever position and backed out the petcock screw. I hear/feel nice solid clicks/connects from Run-Off-Reserve positions.


I also took a close look at the vent hose with the tank in place and secured. First thing I did was test that the hose wasn't blocked. Which it isn't, but I wonder of it may be partially blocked as it takes a pretty sharp right hand turn almost directly after the vent hose nipple, so that the the hose goes almost horizontal over the top of the center panel (key panel) and then feeds down to route out bottom of the bike. I pulled out the fuel line and without disconnecting it from the nipple I inhaled from the tube and got a lot of fuel vapor. (yuck) Blowing into the hose requires some effort to blow air, but it's not a big hose, so tough to tell if it's blocked. I'm wondering about that first big bend in the hose though just as it leaves the nipple. I'm feeling this bend more than seeing it, as it's definitely tough to see up there when the tank is on.  Question: Is the correct routing of the vent hose to leave the nipple on the tank and then behind that center plastic panel? That's how it was routed and I have changed it, although I'm tempted to just to test.

The took the bike out after some adjustments. I started in run mode and then switched to off. The bike ran the carbs out and began to stutter, then I switched to reserve. Once the bike caught, and ran normally as it should, but in 3 more tries, I needed to open the fuel tank door to finally get the fuel to flow freely and engine to run properly.

Somethings still not quite right. I think my next step is, at least for a test, to reroute the vent hose directly down instead of this sharp jog to the rear and over the top of that center panel. I'm suspicious of that sharp bend in that hose. I'm thinking it might not be fully blocked but it could very well be partially hindering air flow into the tank, hence not enough air to normalize fuel feed when needed most. ...just a theory.

More testing to try and isolate the problem. If rerouting the vent hose straight down fixes things, I'll know that bend is the problem. If it still doesn't feed properly I'll start looking closer at the petcock alignment and that ball bearing seating.

Steve

[Hook#3287]

The vent hoses correct route is to go behind the center cover as you have it.  You can unhook it completely for a ride test.

You should test the air passage in the tank itself.  Some have reported that being blocked in the past.

Try hooking a hose to the nipple at the bottom of the tank and test it by blowing into it (you won't get fumed)

[Hook#3287]

Oh yeah, gas cap open.

[Steve-L]

The vent hoses correct route is to go behind the center cover as you have it.  You can unhook it completely for a ride test.

You should test the air passage in the tank itself.  Some have reported that being blocked in the past.

Try hooking a hose to the nipple at the bottom of the tank and test it by blowing into it (you won't get fumed)

Thanks I did blow into it too.. air passes, but it felt like more resistance than should be... although I really don't know what it should be. Good to know that I can just unplug it from the tank and see what happens.

Thanks for the correct routing.  What did you mean with your 2nd comment "Oh yeah, gas cap open."

[Harryc]

Ever try to blow air into a sealed container?

[Hook#3287]

Ever try to blow air into a sealed container?

Haha, like Harry says, if you blew into the tube attached to the tank, in theory you should not have been able to put air in.  The tank should be a sealed unit, but I suspect most aren't.  But assuming yours is, with the cap closed, you shouldn't be able to push much air in.

I believe that hose is giving you the trouble.  I also believe Honda designed it as a dual purpose system, tank air venting and gas overfill drain.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

I believe that hose is giving you the trouble.  I also believe Honda designed it as a dual purpose system, tank air venting and gas overfill drain.   

I believe Honda designed it as a triple purpose system. In full blazing desert sun it can be used as a blowtorch to fight off the enemy. 
(I think Hook is right, you shouldn't have any sharp bends in the hose) Also make sure it has a "T" in it. In a heavy rain it can clog with water and impede fuel flow.

[Steve-L]

Ever try to blow air into a sealed container?

Haha, like Harry says, if you blew into the tube attached to the tank, in theory you should not have been able to put air in.  The tank should be a sealed unit, but I suspect most aren't.  But assuming yours is, with the cap closed, you shouldn't be able to push much air in.

I believe that hose is giving you the trouble.  I also believe Honda designed it as a dual purpose system, tank air venting and gas overfill drain.   

That splains it! 

[Steve-L]

I believe that hose is giving you the trouble.  I also believe Honda designed it as a dual purpose system, tank air venting and gas overfill drain.  

I believe Honda designed it as a triple purpose system. In full blazing desert sun it can be used as a blowtorch to fight off the enemy.  
(I think Hook is right, you shouldn't have any sharp bends in the hose) Also make sure it has a "T" in it. In a heavy rain it can clog with water and impede fuel flow.

It does have the T , I am going to take a ride to the hardware store and get me a few feet of hose that size.

[Dale_K]

If you find the metal section of the vent tube blocked inside the tank you can get a direct replacement gas cap with a vent port through the cap.  You might need to carry 2 keys with this method.

[Steve-L]

That's interesting because I DO have a 2nd key and was told it was because the original cap had a problem and it was replaced. This was sold by a dealer on consignment, so I pretty much wrote it off to the original tank had been damaged and was replaced.

...hmmm maybe it actually was replaced. How would I tell?

[Dale_K]

Look at the 6:00 mark in this vid.  The guy is working on a Valkyrie where the metal tank vent line is rusted through inside the tank.  His fix is to replace the stock gas cap with one from a different model Honda that vents through the cap.  It shows how to tell the caps apart.  I think he lists the part number for the vented cap.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hda12k__UWg

[Steve-L]

Look at the 6:00 mark in this vid.  The guy is working on a Valkyrie where the metal tank vent line is rusted through inside the tank.  His fix is to replace the stock gas cap with one from a different model Honda that vents through the cap.  It shows how to tell the caps apart.  I think he lists the part number for the vented cap.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hda12k__UWg

Dale, thanks, I've watched others by this guy too. This info my come in handy.

[Steve-L]

Just to follow up on this thread. I believe both my symptoms/problems resolved themselves by A) removing the vent hose, and B) backing off a few turns on the petcock screw.

I have not yet replaced the hose, but will be doing that this week.

The 2 symptoms were.

1. Occasionally like once or twice in a day ride, and difficult to replicate, at about 3000 rpm in 5th gear, while going up a hill, I would get a little fuel starvation stutter. at about 20% throttle. Then it would clear itself up if I let off the gas.

2. Secondly, if switching from run to reserve, or running out of gas by setting petcock to Off then running out, then switching to reserve it would not successfully refuel unless I popped the cap. Similar fuel starvation symptom.

So simply pulling the vent line off the nipple seems to have resolved both issues. So now I need to source new vent hose, and put it back, with the T and see if it still is okay. The vent hose seems to be in decent condition.. but it's a small hose and blowing through does provide more resistance than I'd like.

I'll follow up sometime this week, if I can find that size hose.

[Hook#3287]

It's been a while since I bought some, but I believe you want 5/16 windshield washer hose, available just about everywhere.

[Bone]

then switching to reserve it would not successfully refuel unless I popped the cap

This might help you it was posted a year ago;

Your tank filler cap doesn't have a vent but if you want to change it out for a vented cap order a cap for a 1984 Honda VF700C  Honda part #17620-MB1-033
These are vented and will replace your non vented cap.

[Steve-L]

It's been a while since I bought some, but I believe you want 5/16 windshield washer hose, available just about everywhere.

Thank you! They look at me with a blank stare when I tell them it's a vent hose for a motorcycle.

[Steve-L]

then switching to reserve it would not successfully refuel unless I popped the cap

This might help you it was posted a year ago;

Your tank filler cap doesn't have a vent but if you want to change it out for a vented cap order a cap for a 1984 Honda VF700C  Honda part #17620-MB1-033
These are vented and will replace your non vented cap.

WOW! Very helpful! I am nervous that a new vent hose won't fix the problem and perhaps the internal vent line inside the tank is partially blocked or something, hence I may need this fix.

Is it at all tricky to remove and replace the filler cap?

[Steve-L]

I'm still chasing this elusive and inconsistent small problem. 2 or 3, sometimes 4 on a long ride, in 5th gear (always) usually going up hill, with maybe 20%~25% throttle, usually right at 60mph, and 3Krpm, the bike goes into a fuel starvation mode. The only thing that seems to relieve the effect is to let go of gas and coast for a 15 second to 30 second time and then vroom/vroom I'm all set.

I've changed the vent hose, and worked the screw out at the petcock. etc and it seems to have resolved the other issue of not switching to reserve smoothly.

But, here's the trivia question of the day, there is a 1 inch round washer, with a collar that guides the big rear tank bolt down through a large square rubber pad, about 1.25 inches square that the rear of the tank rests on. Is this washer positioned above the tank with collar/bolt guide facing down, or is it positioned below the rubber pad with collar facing up. Easy to tell if you pull your seat off and look.

I found it facing down. the parts blow-up seems to show it from the top facing down. So I positioned it that way and going for a test ride. When it is positioned as I have it I can snug down the petcock screw and it doesn't need to wander when switched from on to off to reserve.

Can anyone take a quick look and let me know what theirs looks like? I'll take a pic in a minute.

tnx

Steve L

[Leathel]

Just curious.....it could be another issue but what do the plugs look like?