Tranny question

[Hook#3287]

As I pull up for a stop in traffic, I always downshift into first before stopping. 

Habit.

On my 99 I/S w/65K, when I do that at any speed, say above 10-15 mph, (could be less, I've haven't noticed the exact speed) I get a gear grinding noise. 

Only downshifting into 1st and only when moving at, or around, the speed I mentioned.

Other than that, the Tranny works as smoothly as any other Valk.

I can avoid it and I do, by waiting till I'm almost completely stopped, but want to know what is causing it?

Any ideas?

[hubcapsc]

A thing... I wouldn't describe it the way you did... happens with my transmission when
I downshift to too low a gear too fast. I used to wonder about it, but it doesn't happen
very often, and my 1800 has done it too. I think maybe it is the rear wheel skiddering
a little bit...

-Mike

[Hook#3287]

A thing... I wouldn't describe it the way you did... happens with my transmission when
I downshift to too low a gear too fast. I used to wonder about it, but it doesn't happen
very often, and my 1800 has done it too. I think maybe it is the rear wheel skiddering
a little bit...

-Mike

Mike, if I had nothing to compare it too, I'd chalk it up to downshifting while going to fast.  But, I'm fortunate enough to have other Valks for comparison and this one is different than the rest.

Happens every time and is in the Tranny, I can feel it and hear it.

[jim@98valkyrie.com]

If I downshift to first at those speeds, I only get a rather loud clunk. I think she is telling me that the syncro gears are working, but that I should wait until I am at a slower speed before downshifting.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging. But if that was the case I would think you'd have it happen on the other shifts too.

[Hook#3287]

If I downshift to first at those speeds, I only get a rather loud clunk. I think she is telling me that the syncro gears are working, but that I should wait until I am at a slower speed before downshifting.

Yeah, that's what happens on my others.  This goes "Rumble, rumble, rumble, clunk"

Kinda scary actually.

[Hook#3287]

Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging. But if that was the case I would think you'd have it happen on the other shifts too.

Clutch seems fine, works as supposed too.

[klb]

If I downshift from 2nd to 1st all at once mine does the same thing.
I started going to neutral from 2nd and after slowing down a couple
extra mph then going into 1st.  Can't hardly hear the click when it
goes in.

[Hook#3287]

If I downshift from 2nd to 1st all at once mine does the same thing.
I started going to neutral from 2nd and after slowing down a couple
extra mph then going into 1st.  Can't hardly hear the click when it
goes in.

Well I'm happy to have company, but don't know if that's good for me or bad for you.

[Tfrank59]

Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging. But if that was the case I would think you'd have it happen on the other shifts too.

I don't get any grind going down to first coming to a stop at any speed.  I would think it's your clutch not fully disengaging or some such like.  try rev matching if it bugs you that much, or try bleeding the slave?  regarding other higher gears, it might only happen with first gear as it's lowest--I've had that first-gear-little-grind-thing with other bikes and manual trans cars over the years.

[Hook#3287]

Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging. But if that was the case I would think you'd have it happen on the other shifts too.

I don't get any grind going down to first coming to a stop at any speed.  I would think it's your clutch not fully disengaging or some such like.  try rev matching if it bugs you that much, or try bleeding the slave?  regarding other higher gears, it might only happen with first gear as it's lowest--I've had that first-gear-little-grind-thing with other bikes and manual trans cars over the years.

I replaced the fluid this past winter and the system was bled then.  I didn't remove and inspect the slave.  The clutch seems to operate correctly in all aspects.

I can change my habits/procedure to have it not happen, just want to know what is going on, if possible.

[Tfrank59]

Well I'm stumped. But I don't think it should be doing it since my bike doesn't. let us know what you figure out

[Tfrank59]

Wait a second, did this problem occur last year before changing your clutch fluid? Just a thought

[Ricky-D]

You do not have a problem yet, but just keep going on and testing it and you will surely have a problem come your way.

There could be any number of reasons for what you describe is happening and it points to the "dogs" on the shifter being worn a little.

It also could mean the "drum stopper spring" is a little weak.

But, regardless of what it is , you just keep on doing it to make the noise and eventually you are going to need some mechanical work.

Why anyone treat their bike like this is beyond me, and it seems very "rookie" to ride the bike in such an abusive manner.

***

[The emperor has no clothes]

You do not have a problem yet, but just keep going on and testing it and you will surely have a problem come your way.

There could be any number of reasons for what you describe is happening and it points to the "dogs" on the shifter being worn a little.

It also could mean the "drum stopper spring" is a little weak.

But, regardless of what it is , you just keep on doing it to make the noise and eventually you are going to need some mechanical work.

Why anyone treat their bike like this is beyond me, and it seems very "rookie" to ride the bike in such an abusive manner.

***

Shifting from 2nd to 1st is abusive ?  I think you've made a friend here Bill.  ???

[Hook#3287]

You do not have a problem yet, but just keep going on and testing it and you will surely have a problem come your way.

There could be any number of reasons for what you describe is happening and it points to the "dogs" on the shifter being worn a little.

It also could mean the "drum stopper spring" is a little weak.

But, regardless of what it is , you just keep on doing it to make the noise and eventually you are going to need some mechanical work.

Why anyone treat their bike like this is beyond me, and it seems very "rookie" to ride the bike in such an abusive manner.

***

  you kill me

OK.

How do you put your bike into 1st when you stop?  Do all the downshifts at once, after you stop, while you wait for the light to change?

So, pulling in the clutch, and downshifting into a lower gear, is abusive?????

If you're going up a hill in 5th and you want to downshift to 4th for more power, do you pull over to the side of the road and do it??

You can keep your attitude, but at least you've giving some info.

Obviously, these people have it all wrong.

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/motorcycle-downshifting-techniques
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/18/motorcycle-riding-skills-how-to-downshift-like-a-pro


First time I ever looked up advice on riding techniques.

I've only got 1500 miles on this bike, I doubt my "ABUSIVE" ways have caused this issue, at least they haven't done so on my first Valk I bought in 99 and have 115K on.  Or the other 3 I've put a collective 60K on.

Wait a second, did this problem occur last year before changing your clutch fluid? Just a thought

I can't recall.  I bought this bike in GA and rode it home in the spring of 2016.  Tore it down and did a ton of work on it last year and didn't get her out till this spring.  I don't remember having the issue, but that doesn't mean I didn't.  Can't see how changing the fluid would cause this, I know I bled it correctly.   Clutch seems to be operating correctly and the ONLY issue is when downshifting into first from second while rolling.

[Tfrank59]

You know I'm out on my bike right now I'm just stopped to gas up but I realize that I do rev-matching every time I downshift it's almost second nature I think you should try it I think you'll be pleased with how smoothly you can shift down doing that.  In fact it's so much a part of my writing style that I can't not do it if that makes any sense. So I don't even want to try going from 2nd to 1st without blipping the throttle up to the anticipated RPMs that first gear will produce. Anyway just my 1.5 cents. I hope it helps

[Hook#3287]

You know I'm out on my bike right now I'm just stopped to gas up but I realize that I do rev-matching every time I downshift it's almost second nature I think you should try it I think you'll be pleased with how smoothly you can shift down doing that.  In fact it's so much a part of my writing style that I can't not do it if that makes any sense. So I don't even want to try going from 2nd to 1st without blipping the throttle up to the anticipated RPMs that first gear will produce. Anyway just my 1.5 cents. I hope it helps

Tom, thanks for the POSITIVE response, I'll give that a try.  I usually pull in the clutch and downshift without blipping or rev-matching.  

Actually, I'm going to rescind that.  I do raise the rpm's when letting the clutch out, but like you said, it's so second nature I don't even realize it.

The issue I'm talking about is not when I'm using the clutch and engine for breaking, but just stopping completely and going from second to first and only on this particular bike.

[Hook#3287]

Maybe I haven't explained this correctly.

When coming to a stop, I usually downshift thru the gears to second, I pull the clutch lever in, at about 10 mph, I downshift into first, with the clutch lever still in, I do not blip the throttle when downshifting into first, never have needed to. I stop the bike from that point with brakes only.

I do this so I don't have to shift my bikes weight to the right and lift my left foot, to downshift into first, after stopping.

I'd be hard pressed to see how this is incorrect, but maybe blipping the throttle is something I should start.

[Harryc]

Hey Bill, I got to thinking about this problem. Since you have more than one Valk, it would be possible to swap clutch slaves... I am leaning toward that as the issue.

[Hook#3287]

Hey Bill, I got to thinking about this problem. Since you have more than one Valk, it would be possible to swap clutch slaves... I am leaning toward that as the issue.

Thanks Harry, now you got me thinking I should just order a new slave.

The issue is not major and I can avoid it.  Heading south at the end of the week and will try that when I get back.

I think I'll try bleeding the system again.

[Jess from VA]

Even with syncro, some transmissions do not like downshifting as much as others. (mainly to first)

With both 4 wheels and two, when they objected, I did it less or not much at all.  I don't go for first rolling to a stop, I go for neutral.  Yes, I'm also watching those rolling up behind me, and if they make me nervous, I'm in gear.

I had a Harley though that if you didn't get into neutral rolling up to a stop, it was never going into neutral once stopped.  And that clutch was many times harder to hold than a hydraulic one.

[Tfrank59]

You know I'm out on my bike right now I'm just stopped to gas up but I realize that I do rev-matching every time I downshift it's almost second nature I think you should try it I think you'll be pleased with how smoothly you can shift down doing that.  In fact it's so much a part of my writing style that I can't not do it if that makes any sense. So I don't even want to try going from 2nd to 1st without blipping the throttle up to the anticipated RPMs that first gear will produce. Anyway just my 1.5 cents. I hope it helps

Tom, thanks for the POSITIVE response, I'll give that a try.  I usually pull in the clutch and downshift without blipping or rev-matching.  

Actually, I'm going to rescind that.  I do raise the rpm's when letting the clutch out, but like you said, it's so second nature I don't even realize it.

The issue I'm talking about is not when I'm using the clutch and engine for breaking, but just stopping completely and going from second to first and only on this particular bike.

You know I try to make it that positive  is the only type of  response I give. we're all just amateur posters here and not trying to beat up on each other just give some friendly tips. I'm on a couple of other forums for my car and my other bike and we're always just friendly about it there's no reason to get uptight and if something I do works for you or vice versa then that's what we're  here for. Anyways good luck with your issue and keep us posted

[Valkpilot]

According to the Owner's Manual for my '98 Standard, shifts from 3rd to 2nd should be initiated below 9 MPH and from 2nd to 1st when "engine stalling is imminent."  That's a pretty low speed.

If I recall right, I had a truck with a manual transmission and it was recommended to downshift to first at 5 MPH or less.

So, downshifting to first above 10 MPH could definitely be hard on the gears and shift dogs.


In practice, I almost always go to first when stopped.

[NewValker]

Hey Bill,   I've felt that little grind going into 1st before, pretty sure I was going a little fast and didn't plan on letting the clutch out & was just putting it in 1st for the green light. I've heard it when I was too gentle going into 1st also.
Are you taking Georgia south?
Craig

Why anyone treat their bike like this is beyond me, and it seems very "rookie" to ride the bike in such an abusive manner.

    Ricky-D, you could not be more wrong here...

[Hook#3287]

Hey Bill,   I've felt that little grind going into 1st before, pretty sure I was going a little fast and didn't plan on letting the clutch out & was just putting it in 1st for the green light. I've heard it when I was too gentle going into 1st also.
Are you taking Georgia south?
Craig

Why anyone treat their bike like this is beyond me, and it seems very "rookie" to ride the bike in such an abusive manner.

    Ricky-D, you could not be more wrong here...

Heading to North Carolina with Cliff & Faith and two other couples.  Renting a cabin (Yeah, right, 4 bdrm, 5 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, game room, triple deck off the back, killer view, something out of the magazines) for the week and gonna do some riding and sightseeing.  Planning on hitting Biltmore in Asheville for a day trip,  maybe hit Wheels Through Time Museum.

Got a nephew that lives a couple of towns north of where we're staying, so going to do some family visitation.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Hey Bill,   I've felt that little grind going into 1st before, pretty sure I was going a little fast and didn't plan on letting the clutch out & was just putting it in 1st for the green light. I've heard it when I was too gentle going into 1st also.
Are you taking Georgia south?
Craig

Why anyone treat their bike like this is beyond me, and it seems very "rookie" to ride the bike in such an abusive manner.

    Ricky-D, you could not be more wrong here...

Heading to North Carolina with Cliff & Faith and two other couples.  Renting a cabin (Yeah, right, 4 bdrm, 5 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, game room, triple deck off the back, killer view, something out of the magazines) for the week and gonna do some riding and sightseeing.  Planning on hitting Biltmore in Asheville for a day trip,  maybe hit Wheels Through Time Museum.

Got a nephew that lives a couple of towns north of where we're staying, so going to do some family visitation.

Have fun Bill 

[Hook#3287]

Thanks Rob, I plan on it.

[Jess from VA]

It is my experience that you should just say no to trannys.

[Hook#3287]

It is my experience that you should just say no to trannys.

[Blackduck]

Ricky,
 Per usual you are chucking in your half baked thoughts.
He is not abusing the bike, let alone continually, read his post again.
Second last line he knows how to avoid the problem and does
You owe him an apology for not reading the post fully and spouting a lot of dribble.
As I have said before, unless you have experienced the problem or tried someone's mod/experiment please refrain from comment. Particularly attacking someone when you do not even bother to read a post properly.

Hook,
 Should be on the bike tomorrow and will have a little play to see how mine reacts to different speeds and shifts. Never noticed any problems with 2-1 but do blip the throttle most times.
Cheers Steve

[..]

You know I'm out on my bike right now I'm just stopped to gas up but I realize that I do rev-matching every time I downshift it's almost second nature I think you should try it I think you'll be pleased with how smoothly you can shift down doing that.  In fact it's so much a part of my RIDING style that I can't not do it if that makes any sense. So I don't even want to try going from 2nd to 1st without blipping the throttle up to the anticipated RPMs that first gear will produce. Anyway just my 1.5 cents. I hope it helps

 

[..]

Read
Practice
Adopt

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/motorcycle-downshifting-techniques

Saves on rear tire wear too!

[Hook#3287]

Got the bike out for a short ride yesterday.

Before going, I re-bled the system and got nothing but fluid, no air.

Rev-matching seems to make the difference, but the question remains, why is this bike very different from the others I've ridden?

As I stated, I use downshifting for braking when going from 5-4, 4-3, 3-2, but never when going from 2-1.   I raise the rpm's slightly when releasing the clutch, but hardly ever blip the throttle while pushing down the shifter.  Never had any issue and these tranny's seem to handle that just fine.  Besides, at my advanced age, I'm probably not going to change my ways. 

Seeing as I've only put 1500 or so miles of the 65K it has, (and 1k was mostly highway) if damage occurred , pretty sure it happened before I took ownership.

Read
Practice
Adopt

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/motorcycle-downshifting-techniques

Saves on rear tire wear too!

Paul, I posted that link in my earlier response to Rick-D because he usually states that downshift braking at all is wrong, which is his opinion and he's entitled to it.

But I also feel that article's theory about rev-matching every downshift is geared ( ) to the smaller, lighter transmissions of smaller bikes and a more aggressive riding style than what I do on my 800lb beauties.

Meathead and HarryC, you guys may be onto something.  While bleeding, I could hear a very slight noise coming from the slave, clutch area, that my others don't have, so further inspection is required when I get back from vaca.  I'll pull the slave and if it seems ok, I'll pull the clutch.

This bike has given me some challenges, caused by PO's.   I don't have complete confidence in her as I do my others, yet, but I feel she is way worth the effort.

To be continued...

[Hook#3287]

Are you taking Georgia south?

Ha, Craig, I read this as "Are you TALKING Georgia south"

Yes, I am, but bringing the green/black Tourer as backup and am leaving it in NC for my brother to take home to Georgia.

[..]

Got the bike out for a short ride yesterday.

Before going, I re-bled the system and got nothing but fluid, no air.

Rev-matching seems to make the difference, but the question remains, why is this bike very different from the others I've ridden?

As I stated, I use downshifting for braking when going from 5-4, 4-3, 3-2, but never when going from 2-1.   I raise the rpm's slightly when releasing the clutch, but hardly ever blip the throttle while pushing down the shifter.  Never had any issue and these tranny's seem to handle that just fine.  Besides, at my advanced age, I'm probably not going to change my ways. 

Seeing as I've only put 1500 or so miles of the 65K it has, (and 1k was mostly highway) if damage occurred , pretty sure it happened before I took ownership.

Read
Practice
Adopt

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/motorcycle-downshifting-techniques

Saves on rear tire wear too!

Paul, I posted that link in my earlier response to Rick-D because he usually states that downshift braking at all is wrong, which is his opinion and he's entitled to it.

But I also feel that article's theory about rev-matching every downshift is geared ( ) to the smaller, lighter transmissions of smaller bikes and a more aggressive riding style than what I do on my 800lb beauties.

Meathead and HarryC, you guys may be onto something.  While bleeding, I could hear a very slight noise coming from the slave, clutch area, that my others don't have, so further inspection is required when I get back from vaca.  I'll pull the slave and if it seems ok, I'll pull the clutch.

This bike has given me some challenges, caused by PO's.   I don't have complete confidence in her as I do my others, yet, but I feel she is way worth the effort.

To be continued...

Zooming around the mountain roads I do a lot of gear changing.

Approaching a sharp bend I will down shift using the blip, this enables me to go into a lower gear BUT keep the same road speed. Then I'll ease off the throttle to reduce rpm and speed. If needed I'll add some front brake.

This makes for a smooth reduction in speed without the possibility of the rear tire wanting to skid on the road surface for a split second if the road speed and engine speed don't completely match each other.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=youtube+motorcycle+downshifting&t=ffab&ia=videos

[Bagger John - #3785]

Adding a little bit to the ongoing fray:

I rev-match my Valkyries at every downshift and drop from 2nd into 1st when the bike is darn near stopped. No noises or grinding of any sort.

When I've ridden bikes that DO exhibit this behavior (Valks or otherwise) it's almost always due to the fact the gear you're dropping into is too low a ratio for the speed you're at.

[Hook#3287]

Adding a little bit to the ongoing fray:

I rev-match my Valkyries at every downshift and drop from 2nd into 1st when the bike is darn near stopped. No noises or grinding of any sort.

When I've ridden bikes that DO exhibit this behavior (Valks or otherwise) it's almost always due to the fact the gear you're dropping into is too low a ratio for the speed you're at.

  I'm sure you're correct.  But this Valk seems to want a lower speed than all the others I've ridden.  Trying to find out why?

[Bagger John - #3785]

Adding a little bit to the ongoing fray:

I rev-match my Valkyries at every downshift and drop from 2nd into 1st when the bike is darn near stopped. No noises or grinding of any sort.

When I've ridden bikes that DO exhibit this behavior (Valks or otherwise) it's almost always due to the fact the gear you're dropping into is too low a ratio for the speed you're at.

  I'm sure you're correct.  But this Valk seems to want a lower speed than all the others I've ridden.  Trying to find out why?

Other posters indicated clutch drag, and I think this is on the right track.

You've bled the heck out of the system, so what's left that'll induce drag? Warped plates.

[Dale_K]

Seems like this forum likes to stir up the pot and I'll put in my 2 cents.  I downshift to neutral, not first, as I approach a stop.  My feeling is being in neutral is slightly safer than being in 1st with the clutch pulled in while stopped.  You lose the ability to pull away instantly when you're in neutral but on the other hand you don't have to worry about your hand slipping off the clutch lever.  Rider's choice I guess.

I almost never need to shift to 1st while riding on curvy roads since the Valkyrie pulls so well in 2nd.

I've only owned 2 Valkyries and both are/were kind of clunky shifting.  I feel that they weren't designed for sport bike shifting and resistance to finding 1st at 15 mph is normal.