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Author Topic: Vacuum leak info for those with new-to-you bikes  (Read 11160 times)
Valkpilot
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What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« on: June 11, 2017, 04:37:11 PM »

If you are chasing carb jet problems because the bikes have been sitting, you probably do have some gummy carbs.  But it may not require a carb tear down.  If it's not too bad, a few tanks of B12, Techron, Seafoam, etc. may pretty well clean them out.

BUT, track down and fix your vacuum leaks first!  Many of the symptoms are the same and your carb problem may not be as bad as it seems.

Also, vacuum leaks will affect carb balance and idle speed, so if you adjust either of these without finding and correcting the leaks, your adjustments still won't be correct.

Once the vac leaks are taken care of, you'll know better how serious is your carb problem.

I've got a '98 Standard that I pretty much let sit for a couple of years.  Solvent in the gas cleaned up the pilot (slow) jets (which weren't bad, they're #38s)  But I still had to track down some backfires,

After making sure my exhaust header bolts were all tight, I started looking for vacuum leaks and found them in the vacuum caps and lines.  

Also, some of the bands around the intake tubes had loosened as well.

Correcting all this brought the bike back to smooth running.


Finding what sucks:

On the back side of each of the six chrome intake tubes is a nipple:




If your bike has been de-smogged, you'll have a vacuum cap on five of them and a vacuum line leading to the petcock on the sixth.  If your bike still has its smog gear, you'll have three with vac lines and three with caps.

Theses are also the nipples you connect your gauge lines to when balancing the carbs.

The vacuum caps and lines will eventually break down because they are exposed to fuel/air mixture and the fuel attacks the rubber components.  The leak usually occurs on the bottom side, hidden from casual inspection.  You have to pull them off and examine them closely.

This one looks pretty good, right?




It's not, but you couldn't tell with it on the nipple.




Beware replacing the vacuum caps with cheap stuff from an auto parts store and ditto for vacuum lines.  This is the stuff to use for vacuum lines http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,72242.0.html

I now make my own vacuum caps with short pieces of this silicone hose, black RTV adhesive/sealant and #8 x 1/2 machine screws.  Cut the lengths, pookie one end with sealant, insert the screw and let cure.  They grip well and don't need clamps.  (Note that I did not have these on the bike.  The leakers I found were Viton B, installed in 2011.  I have the home-made ones on now.)

Here's one of my home-made caps.  I make a dozen or so at a time and give them away at wrench parties or the monthly meetings.




If you want to buy your vacuum caps instead, I recommend these: http://redeye.ecrater.com/p/3301919/three-vacuum-caps-honda-valkyrie

While you're replacing caps and lines, take an 8mm wrench and check the nipples for tightness.  They can loosen.  Some folks replace the nipples entirely with a short bolt of the same thread.  This eliminates the need for vacuum caps entirely.  If you do this, hang on to the nipples because you will need to reinstall them if you ever sync your carbs.


Another source of vac leaks is the bands that hold the carbs to the chrome intake tubes, and the carbs to the feed tubes from the airbox.  There are three sets of these, so 18 in total.  They are all tightened with 8mm bolts or Philips (JIS) screws on a steel band, similar to a radiator hose clamp.  

The ones that connect the carbs to the chrome intake tubes are easy because they are exposed.  





There's another set immediately above these.  You have to remove the chrome valance that covers the enrichener (choke) cables to see them.




The third set, which is just above the carbs, can be reached by lifting the tank an inch or so.  




They all need to be tight to eliminate leaks at those spots.


The final common source of vac leaks is at the base of the chrome intake tubes.  Each of these is held in place by the connecting band at the top and with a pair of bolts at the base.  




Underneath the tubes is an o-ring.  




Like the vac caps and lines, these deteriorate over time.  Usually, you'll know you have a problem because there will be coffee colored stains on the top of the block around the base of the intake tubes.  This goo (technically "mung") is fuel residue, the same stuff that collects in the vac caps and tubes and rots them.  



If you see stains, get some of these: http://redeye.ecrater.com/p/2064055/intake-o-ring-kit-viton-gf, and replace the old ones (it's easy.)  No stains?  Check the base bolts are tight and roll on.


Hopefully this is helpful info and will save a few of you from doing fruitless carb rebuilds that still leave you scratching your heads over rough idles and backfires.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 06:30:52 PM by Valkpilot » Logged

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StrikingViking
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Abbotsford, BC


« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2017, 11:29:28 PM »

This is an EXCELLENT breakdown of potential issues.  cooldude

I had to work through this stuff a couple years ago when I bought my '98 that had been sitting for awhile.  The biggest leaks on mine were the clamps around the intake boots... and just tightening those was transformative!

Nice work!
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~ '98 Burgundy/Cream Tourer
~ '98 Burgundy/Cream Standard (sold)
~ '97 Green/Cream Tourer (Bought new... sold)
Fazer
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West Chester (Cincinnati), Ohio


« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2017, 06:55:05 AM »

Thanks Valkpilot.  Good stuff here! 

One question (clarification really)--I desmogged a couple of years ago and of course capped my vacuum nipples where the lines were removed.  Are those the only vacuum nipples on the carbs?  I have a BonS Digisync that I have yet to use and want to make sure I am looking at the correct vacuum lines.

Greg
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Black Dog
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Merton Wisconsin 53029


« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2017, 07:08:37 AM »

Are those the only vacuum nipples on the carbs?

Actually the nipples are on the chrome tubes below the carbs (pointing towards the center of the engine under the carbs.  On your de-smogged bike, there should be 5 capped off, and one with the petcock vacuum tube), and yes, these are the only nipples.

Black Dog
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Bagger John - #3785
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2017, 08:23:40 AM »

Also might be worth mentioning replacement of the OEM petcock diaphragm/vacuum assembly, if the bike is still equipped with the stocker. Those will deteriorate right along with the rest of the rubber parts and if the stars and planets line up just right you'll get limited (or no) fuel flow.

Ask me how I know this.  tickedoff
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Valkpilot
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What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2017, 06:13:07 PM »

New and improved with pics!
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VRCC #19757
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1998 Black Standard
2007 Goldwing 
 
   
Fazer
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West Chester (Cincinnati), Ohio


« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 08:05:27 AM »

Even Better!!!  Thanks.
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Valkpilot
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What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 07:15:42 AM »

Thanks Valkpilot.  Good stuff here! 


This is an EXCELLENT breakdown of potential issues.  cooldude

Nice work!


Thank you both. 
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VRCC #19757
IBA #44686
1998 Black Standard
2007 Goldwing 
 
   
Valkorado
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VRCC DS 0242

Gunnison, Colorado (7,703') Here there be twisties.


« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 07:41:01 AM »

Thanks for taking the time to post this excellent write-up.  Worthy of a sticky, IMO.   cooldude
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Hooter
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S.W. Michigan


« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 06:14:19 AM »

I finally got to read this. Great info, thank you. After reading about the carb boots I went out to the garage and pulled the rail covers. I am diligent when it comes to exhaust nuts and the lower bands on the carb boots. I completely forgot about the upper band. They were extremely loose. Not anymore,  they are snugged  right up. Outa sight outa mind I guess, but something so simple can make a huge difference in the way you bike runs.  cooldude
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 06:16:31 AM by Hooter » Logged

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Savago
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Brentwood - CA


« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2018, 02:24:54 PM »

Excellent post!

Very instructional.
 cooldude
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Mtn Valk
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North Ga.


« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2018, 04:32:01 PM »

I remember reading this post last year, and didn't act. Glad Savago replied so that I could remember!
Nicely done!
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J3
Valkpilot
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What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2018, 05:06:02 PM »


I remember reading this post last year, and didn't act. Glad Savago replied so that I could remember!
Nicely done!

Excellent post!

Very instructional.
 cooldude

Thank you.

The bikes are changing hands and it seems like almost every new owner is going right to rebuilding the carbs.  This could well be needed, but there is easier stuff to lock down first.
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VRCC #19757
IBA #44686
1998 Black Standard
2007 Goldwing 
 
   
98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2018, 06:50:47 PM »

vacuum caps material, best material to use? they all have their pros and cons.
    Polyurethane, Fluorosilicone, Nitrile aka Buna-N and Viton do best with gasoline and oils,    Hypalon and silicone are very bad.
 All are good with air.  all do good with Ozone except Nitrile.
All are good with petroleum except Hypalon.
All are good with water except Polyurethane.

https://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart

https://mykin.com/rubber-properties   Nitrile not good with sunlight.

Viton comes up the winner esp., when atmospheric oxidation, sun, and weather are considered.
https://www.calpaclab.com/viton-chemical-compatibility-chart/
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1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

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Red Diamond
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Beaumont, Texas


« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2018, 06:52:46 PM »

Thanks for sharing Pilot, I’m in the process of switching California carbs for 49 state carbs on my desmogged California bike. What size hose are you using to get a good tight fit on everything? The Cali carbs has many more holes to plug.
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Valkpilot
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Posts: 2151


What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2018, 07:22:21 PM »

Thanks for sharing Pilot, I’m in the process of switching California carbs for 49 state carbs on my desmogged California bike. What size hose are you using to get a good tight fit on everything? The Cali carbs has many more holes to plug.


3.5 mm ID silicone vacuum line.  This is what I bought: http://www.boostcontroller.com/TurboLogic-Vacuum-Hose-3-5MM-p/tls-vh-3.5.htm
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VRCC #19757
IBA #44686
1998 Black Standard
2007 Goldwing 
 
   
Valkpilot
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Posts: 2151


What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2018, 07:42:33 PM »

vacuum caps material, best material to use? they all have their pros and cons.
    Polyurethane, Fluorosilicone, Nitrile aka Buna-N and Viton do best with gasoline and oils,    Hypalon and silicone are very bad.
 All are good with air.  all do good with Ozone except Nitrile.
All are good with petroleum except Hypalon.
All are good with water except Polyurethane.

https://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart

https://mykin.com/rubber-properties   Nitrile not good with sunlight.

Viton comes up the winner esp., when atmospheric oxidation, sun, and weather are considered.
https://www.calpaclab.com/viton-chemical-compatibility-chart/



Since silicone vacuum lines are widely used, I think the reference above about silicone's poor performance refers to using it as fuel or oil ciruclation line, or in an evironment where it is basically immersed in gas or oil. 

My personal experience is the Viton B will last a long time, but will become spongy and break down as I show in one of the pictures above.  (After 6 years!)  Likewise, the silicone will last a long time, but it hardens at the nipples (where the most contact with fuel residue occurs) and loses its grip and flexibility.

No plastic or rubber component on our bikes will hold up forever, because as you point out, some combination of petroleum, temperature, ozone, and moisture with eventually do it in.

I'm satisfied with the performance of either Viton B or silicone vacuum line and caps.   For $20 I can buy 20 feet of 3.5mm vacuum line and that's enough to make a lot of caps and vacuum hoses.  I just accept that they have to be inspected and replaced periodically.


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VRCC #19757
IBA #44686
1998 Black Standard
2007 Goldwing 
 
   
98valk
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Posts: 13440


South Jersey


« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2018, 08:39:59 PM »

vacuum caps material, best material to use? they all have their pros and cons.
    Polyurethane, Fluorosilicone, Nitrile aka Buna-N and Viton do best with gasoline and oils,    Hypalon and silicone are very bad.
 All are good with air.  all do good with Ozone except Nitrile.
All are good with petroleum except Hypalon.
All are good with water except Polyurethane.

https://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart

https://mykin.com/rubber-properties   Nitrile not good with sunlight.

Viton comes up the winner esp., when atmospheric oxidation, sun, and weather are considered.
https://www.calpaclab.com/viton-chemical-compatibility-chart/



Since silicone vacuum lines are widely used, I think the reference above about silicone's poor performance refers to using it as fuel or oil ciruclation line, or in an evironment where it is basically immersed in gas or oil. 

My personal experience is the Viton B will last a long time, but will become spongy and break down as I show in one of the pictures above.  (After 6 years!)  Likewise, the silicone will last a long time, but it hardens at the nipples (where the most contact with fuel residue occurs) and loses its grip and flexibility.

No plastic or rubber component on our bikes will hold up forever, because as you point out, some combination of petroleum, temperature, ozone, and moisture with eventually do it in.

I'm satisfied with the performance of either Viton B or silicone vacuum line and caps.   For $20 I can buy 20 feet of 3.5mm vacuum line and that's enough to make a lot of caps and vacuum hoses.  I just accept that they have to be inspected and replaced periodically.



yep, they have to be on a replacement schedule. some materials are just better than others.  Viton A is the type to use not Viton B. Viton A has excellent resistance to atmospheric oxidation, sun, weather plus with oil and gasoline.  I used to have an '87 prelude, even in 2010 all of the underhood vacuum hoses where flexible with zero hardness. they were like new, I believe they were viton.
There were posts about 10 yrs ago (old tech board) of the silicone hose and caps being used. all users reported they didn't last long.  However I do not know what type of silicone they were using.

The newer Tygon tubing which is good for ethanol fuel is another good option and maybe the best.
I replaced the org Dial-A-jet tubing with tygon about seven yrs ago. Zero problems. https://www.processsystems.saint-gobain.com/products/tygon-lp-1100-flexible-fuel-tubing
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1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

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RonW
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Posts: 1867

Newport Beach


« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2018, 12:30:32 AM »

Good post! In the pic below, that's the same reason I got rid of the fuel bowl drain tubings. I gather they get bumped around against the metal nipple when washing the bike in that area. Whenever I drained the fuel bowls half the fuel would leak out and puddle on top of the engine. Didn't notice that right away either. Anyways the fuel bowl nipples are easy to reach if I ever need to attach a temporary tubing. Don't use them that often. From my experience, the Oem vacuum plugs are the sturdiest even though they're over priced. Don't know the material though.

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2000 Valkyrie Tourer
Phoen8xRanch
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2021, 11:15:20 AM »

Valkpilot, I know I'm late to the party but I specifically went through the rigorous process of remembering my Username and Password just so I could get on here and tell you thank you for this thread. 

As you anticipated, I'm a new Valk owner with a bike that has been set up for a bit.  At one point you can tell this thing was pampered by a P/O and it's worth the effort to get her running well.  He passed away and daughter received in the estate settling and it sat since she and her husband don't know motorbikes. 

I tore into it yesterday and got a good feel for what things are, but I really wanted a good description of all the potential vacuum issues along with pictures (I'm a visual learner).  This was wonderful and thank you for the time and effort you put into this.  You really helped me out with your detailed descriptions and matching pictures.
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Valkpilot
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Posts: 2151


What does the data say?

Corinth, Texas


« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2021, 06:25:30 PM »

Valkpilot, I know I'm late to the party but I specifically went through the rigorous process of remembering my Username and Password just so I could get on here and tell you thank you for this thread. 

As you anticipated, I'm a new Valk owner with a bike that has been set up for a bit.  At one point you can tell this thing was pampered by a P/O and it's worth the effort to get her running well.  He passed away and daughter received in the estate settling and it sat since she and her husband don't know motorbikes. 

I tore into it yesterday and got a good feel for what things are, but I really wanted a good description of all the potential vacuum issues along with pictures (I'm a visual learner).  This was wonderful and thank you for the time and effort you put into this.  You really helped me out with your detailed descriptions and matching pictures.

Wow.  Thank you.  I'm really glad it helped.
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VRCC #19757
IBA #44686
1998 Black Standard
2007 Goldwing 
 
   
doubletee
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VRCC # 22269

Fort Wayne, IN


« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2021, 08:41:11 AM »

I'm fairly certain that my o-rings on the intake tubes need replaced after 20 years, but I'm also certain that I'll twist off one or more of the bolts that connect the tubes to the head when trying to remove them for o-ring replacement.  tickedoff 

I don't have a bunch of symptoms of vac leakage, so they're going to wait a bit longer.  2funny
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RonW
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Newport Beach


« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2021, 08:28:09 AM »

Post should be in Shoptalk.
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2000 Valkyrie Tourer
Valkorado
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VRCC DS 0242

Gunnison, Colorado (7,703') Here there be twisties.


« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2021, 09:02:27 AM »

Post should be in Shoptalk.

 cooldude
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Have you ever noticed when you're feeling really good,
there's always a pigeon that'll come sh!t on your hood?
- John Prine

97 Tourer "Silver Bullet"
01 Interstate "Ruby"

Speedy Coop
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South Wales, New York


« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2021, 12:28:54 PM »

I have taken the intake runners off on three different motors without any problems, no corrosion what so ever. One was at 52,000 mi., next was at 20,000 mi. and the last was at 74,000 mi. The o-rings needed replacement on all three. Your results may very.
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