Shotgun deadlier than an AR(scary black gun)

[MAD6Gun]

 Hornady makes a new critical defense ammo for the AR for home defense. 55 grain FTX.....

[Hooter]

I know when I entered a building on an alarm or a reported B & E in progress, I always took my shotgun. My 40 was my backup. In a building, a shotgun IMHO is the most effective. Home or commercial structure which is usually a close quarters situation I want that weapon. Felony traffic stops, a shotgun. Anything distance, my AR / 223.

In my home, my shotgun is behind my bedroom door loaded with 00 buck.  My 40 is within arms reach. If I perceive a problem outside (around my outbuildings ) my home I take my shotgun. To each his own.

[3fan4life]

           I'm going with Gavin and Uncle Ted on this one. If I was sitting in a class room and a nut came in shooting randomly, and moving on. I would rather be shot with an AR than a 12 gauge, I feel I would have a better chance of survival.
          Until the boat disaster I owned and shot both.

Depends on the shotgun load, anything less than a slug or 00 buck I'll take the shotgun blast. An AR15 is a devastating cavitation round, big heavy slow bullets don't always cause the most damage internally. The 5.56 round is extremely lethal, it is a true man killer. The .9mm round is also another cavitation round and high velocity, and todays hollow points are devastating. So you have ultra high capacity with a round capable of inflicting serious internal injuries......AKA bleeding right out. Imagine the carnage of lets says a Glock 18 being sprayed around in a crowd, that's 30 round magazine capable and those mags are easy to carry.

Unless, they've made some serious changes to the 5.56mm round since the 1980's it isn't that devastating of a round.

The 5.56mm NATO round was designed to wound more so than kill.

Yes, any round even a .22 is potentially deadly.

But, the idea is that a wounded soldier takes 3 soldiers off the battlefield while an immediate kill only removes one.


As far as a 9mm.

My experience as an EMS provider is why I am not a fan of 9mm's.

I have taken care of dozens of people that were full of holes from a 9mm.

Some died some didn't none were instantly dead.

On the other hand, Everyone, that I've ever encountered tht was shot with a .357 or .44 magnum were stone cold dead. 

[Motodad71]

           I'm going with Gavin and Uncle Ted on this one. If I was sitting in a class room and a nut came in shooting randomly, and moving on. I would rather be shot with an AR than a 12 gauge, I feel I would have a better chance of survival.
          Until the boat disaster I owned and shot both.

Depends on the shotgun load, anything less than a slug or 00 buck I'll take the shotgun blast. An AR15 is a devastating cavitation round, big heavy slow bullets don't always cause the most damage internally. The 5.56 round is extremely lethal, it is a true man killer. The .9mm round is also another cavitation round and high velocity, and todays hollow points are devastating. So you have ultra high capacity with a round capable of inflicting serious internal injuries......AKA bleeding right out. Imagine the carnage of lets says a Glock 18 being sprayed around in a crowd, that's 30 round magazine capable and those mags are easy to carry.

Unless, they've made some serious changes to the 5.56mm round since the 1980's it isn't that devastating of a round.

The 5.56mm NATO round was designed to wound more so than kill.

Yes, any round even a .22 is potentially deadly.

But, the idea is that a wounded soldier takes 3 soldiers off the battlefield while an immediate kill only removes one.


As far as a 9mm.

My experience as an EMS provider is why I am not a fan of 9mm's.

I have taken care of dozens of people that were full of holes from a 9mm.

Some died some didn't none were instantly dead.

On the other hand, Everyone, that I've ever encountered tht was shot with a .357 or .44 magnum were stone cold dead. 

ALL ammo now is more deadlier than ever, regardless of caliber or type. I most certainly don't agree with the 5.56 being more of a wounding type of round, how many of those have you seen in your line of work.....I'm guessing not many? I won't argue the effectiveness of a .9mm with you, as the ballistics and effectiveness of the round speaks for itself, and I am betting not many wounds you are seeing are from hollow points. Yes a .357 and .44 are wicked, you get both velocity and bullet size with both round, with a hollow point it is pretty much over. The military uses the 5.56 still for several reasons, and none has to do with less lethality. Watch the vids I posted if you haven't, the entrance wound of the 5.56 is what makes it not a "wounding" type of round......it's a nasty round in human flesh I can assure you. At close range nothing much is going to be more lethal than a 00 buckshot shotgun regardless of gauge, not many will ever walk away from that.

[Jess from VA]

I know when I entered a building on an alarm or a reported B & E in progress, I always took my shotgun. My 40 was my backup. In a building, a shotgun IMHO is the most effective. Home or commercial structure which is usually a close quarters situation I want that weapon. Felony traffic stops, a shotgun. Anything distance, my AR / 223.

In my home, my shotgun is behind my bedroom door loaded with 00 buck.  My 40 is within arms reach. If I perceive a problem outside (around my outbuildings ) my home I take my shotgun. To each his own.

My 870 (with tube extension to 6, and 6 in a sidesaddle) is also close at hand.  The first two shots are #4,  which is easier on the house, and everything I've read says it's still plenty effective at house ranges.  It's also for the possible grand jury and jury on the issue of trying to be (mildly) easier on intruders (though after two it's all OO buck).  I picked it up some 20 years ago as a used Arlington VA PD trade in, and stuck a Choate pistol grip full stock and for-end, and Wilson Combat mag extension, and sidesaddle on it, and it's got a lot of wear on the finish but still working to perfection. Old war horses have their own nice patina.

I keep it cruiser ready with nothing in the chamber.  I must have read a thousand times about how intruders will run away in fear when hearing the unmistakable sound of a racked pump gun, but I just do it for my own safety (but will take any fear I can get from racking it).  

Like this (except no slings on house guns to get snagged on doorknobs and things)
 

Backup is a Kriss Vector .45acp carbine with 28 rd mag (or Glock 21, 13rd mags), with light/green laser and red dot.  (low tech to high tech)



And there's also an Izraeli all steel double stack 9.  I have a natural choke point in my house at the stairwell, and no one (or ten) is getting up them, without a hand grenade or something.  Not that I'm unwilling to come down down and play.

I've thought about starting a thread about home defense stuff (that is not locked away), but that may not be a good subject for public discussion.  

[Motodad71]

Oh my.....a Kriss Vector!!!!

[Jess from VA]

Yeah, one came up used locally for a steal of a price with a pile of 28rd mags, and I couldn't pass it up.  The unique bolt does away with muzzle rise (but only reduces recoil), but it is pretty heavy for a carbine.

I think this was a somewhat common story of a guy who let his wife look in his safe, and she insisted he sell some (though he wouldn't say that).  Who would?

I'm a 1911 (and .45acp) guy, but it's way more accurate than a 5" bbl.  

[Pete]

Folks worried about over penetration can easily go to smaller shot sizes in a shotgun. Anything hit at house range with 1 once of lead (any size at 1300 to 1600 FPS) in the body is in all likely hood toast.
Also it sure makes for a messy cleanup.

As for the pistol rounds and rifle rounds, multiple hits center mass are a good thing.
For that matter multiple shotgun hits are not a bad thing, but it does make more of a mess to clean up.

I do not know any doctors that can repair a body with even 1 ounce of #xx (you pick) shot properly centered in it from 15 to 25 feet. Gruesome mess does not describe it.

[Jess from VA]

That's why you keep a couple cheap shower curtains on hand.

Cops:  Was that shower curtain already there?

Me:  No, I checked and there was no pulse, and I rolled him onto it after I called.

Cops: You know you're not supposed to move anything before we investigate.

Me:  Sorry, but that's a $2-3K Turkish silk and wool handmade carpet he was bleeding out on, and I'd appreciate it if you'd hurry up so I can can clean it off before the stain sets.

Of course, saying things like this can make a jury think you weren't appropriately heartbroken after using deadly force.

[Pete]

For you folks serious about home protection, some suggestions:

Minimum home battery

1 12 gauge riot shotgun assorted shot sizes for 2 and 4 legged animals
2 pistols 1 for you and 1 for your partner, unless they prefer something else.
1 light rifle 22 caliber (small animal)
1 heavy rifle 30 caliber or larger (bear stopper)
luminous sites, red dots, lasers and lights  as you see fit
2 high intensity flashlights (blinding light)  
enough ammo to start a small war in rapid reload devices
2 at least pistol caliber proof vest
electronic ear protection
and A PLAN.

Good luck you are ready for animal or person attack - take no prisoners.
If you decide to take prisoners then handcuffs or heavy duty ties.

[Jess from VA]

Good points Pete.  

After I got my first decent electronic muffs, I put in the batteries and tried them out walking around.  They give you better than human hearing (absent any gunfire).  Mine now hang on my bedside lamp and will go on first, turned all the way up, before any other defensive action if I hear breaking glass or doors.

If there are two or more guys downstairs (or down the hall), you can probably hear what they are saying.  And not have that annoying freight-train-ringing in your head from shooting (indoors) with no protection (if it comes to that).

When discussing taking prisoners (or anything else), it should always be remembered that any posts here or elsewhere on a public forum, could easily be read by a prosecutor and/or provided to your jury at some trial (criminal or civil for wrongful death).  I'm not always as careful as I should be either.

[Robert]

I used to do quite a bit of trap and skeet shooting and had to learn the barrel lengths in relation to the chokes and distances. These charts are telling in the spread and effective range for the shotgun. This is not the shortened shot gun either. This is more than likely bird shot and not 00. I would occasionally use a slug shot too and that thing would do some damage.

There is nothing like a semi auto large mag 12 gauge shot gun to deter someone. There are the drum mags for some guns also.

  

[Robert]

While on guns, saftey protection and mess they make I couldn't believe this video of someone getting shot in the head in the car. Its very graphic and shows blood pouring out of the guys head who got shot. As a good note the guy did not die and is now responsive and looks like he will make it.

Man shot in head on Facebook Live as friends play with gun in car

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/youre-making-nervous-woman-shoots-12293580

[Jess from VA]

My Mossberg 930 SPX semiauto 8 shot will put out 9 pellets of .32 caliber ball in 2 3/4" OO buck, at over 1300 FPS (18.5"bbl).  

Eight shots = 72 .32 caliber balls, over 1300FPs, in under 3 seconds... if you're in a hurry.  That is firepower that is hard to equal.  

Nice ghost ring rear and fiber optic front sights too.

And gas operated shotguns have significantly less recoil than all other actions, including the very spendy recoil operated Benelli semiautos.  A big plus in 12 gauge.

https://www.mossberg.com/product/930-tactical-8-shot-spx-85360/



But it costs about two new 870s to get one.

[Robert]

There you go, the best in home defense, I knew you would have that.  

Had a Remington 1100 with the extended magazine, what a great gun, just couldn't get myself to pull the trigger on a Mossberg or the Benelli.   Thats some pretty top of the line stuff right there.

[Jess from VA]

You know that Mossberg is only about half of what the Beneli's cost. (or four 870s).

Weatherby is putting out a relatively new semi auto gas 12 gauge too, a bit cheaper than the Mossy, but they are all made in Turkey (which is OK), and all the bugs may not be worked out, and you cannot stick bolt on mag extensions or other things without gunsmith custom skills, and when I called and talked to them last year (before buying the Mossy), they had yet to begin making their own bolt-ons, mag extensions, at all.

Weatherby is a great name (and now moving from CA to WY, lock stock and barrel), but with this new line in infancy, and no aftermarket to speak of (like for Remington, Mossy, and others), and not even much in the way of consumer reviews, I passed on them.

Weatherby SA-459 TR (5 shots and no extension short of pro work to modify aftermarkets to fit)

Weatherby has never been into tactical, and I think they are not trying very hard.

[MarkT]

I'm pretty impressed with the fit & finish of my Weatherby 300 win mag.  It was made by Howa in Japan.  Not done with the accuracy on it yet.  Installed a Timney trigger and floated the barrel.  Need a better scope with parallax dial.  Now getting 2moa, it's supposed to deliver 1moa. Pretty sure it's the scope.

[Jess from VA]

Weatherby won't put its name on any but good rifles, and I've only ever heard good things about Howa rifles.

Weatherby has always been one of the kings of fine bolt rifles (worldwide), and with a bunch of their own wildcat magnum rifle calibers/cartridges.  And long associated with big game hunting with those rifles.

And while a great 300 Win Mag sporting rifle can be as good as (or maybe better than) any tactical design sniper rifle (often of that same great caliber), that doesn't mean Weatherby has ever really appealed or marketed to the tactical, self defense, military or police market.  Course, their stuff has generally been higher priced than military or police would pay.  But they have intentionally stayed out of that arena.  And that is their business model and perfectly OK.

My only dig at them was that after putting out what appears to me to be the first ever tactical style self defense or police weapon (short bbl, pistol grip, auto & pump shotguns), they weren't working very hard to get them out there, or support them with the things nearly everyone would want.  And when I said adding aftermarket mag tube extensions would take pro gunsmith (or excellent hobbyist) skills to convert, it's because they intentionally designed their shotguns to not take the usual aftermarket mag extensions made for Remy, Mossy, Winchester, Ithaca riot guns.   Back when I talked to Weatherby direct on their gas auto, they said they planned to make their own extensions, but they were still in the pipeline.  I passed on their shotgun for the Mossy, and have not looked to see if they are available yet.

You know, on the scope parallax subject, the new CZ heavy bbl 455 Varmint .22 bolt gun I was talking about a couple weeks ago came with a very nice bargain price rimfire variable, that gets pretty good reviews.  But I am having a devil of a time getting a clear picture through it.  I have to have my head/eye in exactly the right spot for a clear full scope view, but any little movement at all of my eye/head starts the black cloud parrallax taking over the whole image (even at lowest power).  3/4" forward or back and it's entirely black. The guy mounted it too far back for my usual cheek weld and I haven't had time to move it yet (and only got about an inch+ to play with anyway).  It has decent eye relief and parallax adjustment, and I can't make it much better.  I need to move it up and see what I can get.  It's brand new and I hate to shitcan it, but it may get replaced if I can't make it work for me.  

And speaking of quality, that CZ may be the nicest looking, finest made, standard, wood stock rifle I own.  The Turkish walnut is really nicely (muted tigerstripe) figured and finished, the metal perfect and that fat bull bbl comes fully floated from the factory.  And I am not going to put up with a finicky scope on it.  6-18 variable may be the problem, I'm used to a straight 4X on a .22.  I suppose it could be fun to choose the left or right nut to shoot off a squirrel, but first I have to see clearly through the damn thing.

[Pete]

Good points Pete.  

When discussing taking prisoners (or anything else), it should always be remembered that any posts here or elsewhere on a public forum, could easily be read by a prosecutor and/or provided to your jury at some trial (criminal or civil for wrongful death).  I'm not always as careful as I should be either.

Thanks Jess, that is why it said suggestion  and not recommendation.
That is also why I am careful on what I post, so that it never says what I do or might do related to subjects.
Being associated with the "particular" industry set for 30 to 40 years makes one cautious and circumspect about what you post.

[Jess from VA]

Good points Pete.  

When discussing taking prisoners (or anything else), it should always be remembered that any posts here or elsewhere on a public forum, could easily be read by a prosecutor and/or provided to your jury at some trial (criminal or civil for wrongful death).  I'm not always as careful as I should be either.

Thanks Jess, that is why it said suggestion  and not recommendation.
That is also why I am careful on what I post, so that it never says what I do or might do related to subjects.
Being associated with the "particular" industry set for 30 to 40 years makes one cautious and circumspect about what you post.

Yeah, I'm not particularly happy living in a world (country) where every keyboard stroke, forum post, email, PM on here (absolutely), cell phone call (maybe not content, but to whom and when), text, tweet is meticulously recorded for potential use against you.  I just don't think that is consistent with the Constitution, and warrantless collection of evidence our founders had in mind.  But it seems it's here to stay (under the guise of it being for own own good, and our national security).  

And it bears thinking about each and every time you are about to hit the post button.

On a self defense shooting (for which you were tried criminally), I think the facts of your reasonable fear of loss of life or great bodily injury would prevail.  But even guys who earn acquittal at trial, later get sued by shysters on contingent fee agreements for wrongful death, where suddenly the burden of proof is not beyond any reasonable doubt (99% to convict)), but only a preponderance of the evidence (51% to win).  Just like OJ (who I was amazed was acquitted, but was happy to see lose the wrongful death), is a useful example.

Private lawyers may not have as much access to this stuff as the various Governments do, but they can join forums and read and collect anything in the public domain like anyone else can.  

A wrongful death civil suit (even following a criminal acquittal) is where a long history of aggressive forum posts about dealing harshly with bad guys and criminals, could very easily be used to argue that your state of mind was so predisposed to act in violence, that you were just looking for an excuse to shoot somebody.  And civil juries just love to give away other people's money (especially urban juries). And there goes the house and life savings.  

(And it could easily cost you the house and life savings just to get good legal counsel to defend you in those actions too.)

I still think keeping a couple extra shower curtains handy for bleeding bodies is a good idea, not because I am predisposed to shoot people, but because I have a lot of money tied up in beautiful handmade oriental carpets.  That's not a callous attitude for my fellow man, it's just reasonable planning ahead to protect my valuable property.       (poking the bear in the eye)