Can Atheists go to Heaven ?

[Chrisj CMA]

  Kind of on the subject and off at the same time. I have my own beliefs. I do not normally get involved in religious conversations.
  If you are a violent ,hateful rapist, murderer, abuser all your life and on your last breath in the death chamber and ask for forgiveness for all your sins , you will be forgiven and sit with God . I do not believe it. There are many that dedicate their life to goodness . Why should criminals be granted the same rights , just for asking. If they believe in hell , why did they not do better in life. If you are afraid of hell , do not push the down button in the death elevator .
  Yes , said God , I forgive you , as we need someone to clean the toilets here.

                                          da prez

As Carl stated above. The thief on cross did just what you said you don't believe can happen.  True repentance is true repentance, until you take that last breath (most of the time) it's not too late. But it has to be true repentance and faith. Not just nice words from someone near death

[Jess from VA]

Can Atheists go to Heaven ?

Well, if the USPS is involved, anything can happen.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Can Atheists go to Heaven ?

Well, if the USPS is involved, anything can happen.

Heaven is a God run program, not a govt. program.

[Robert]

This California State Assembly bill would BAN the Bible!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=17&v=siTCwnsGjSk

[Serk]

Can Atheists go to Heaven ?

Well, if the USPS is involved, anything can happen.

Heaven is a God run program, not a govt. program.

Well if nothing else, now we know you're not a "Real Liberal"... To one of those, government IS God... 

[Chrisj CMA]

This California State Assembly bill would BAN the Bible!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=17&v=siTCwnsGjSk

Let's just hope enough Christians that may someday be confronted by laws like this will stand up and fight, stand for Christ and the Bible.

Unfortunately I think most will not

[Gryphon Rider]

  Kind of on the subject and off at the same time. I have my own beliefs. I do not normally get involved in religious conversations.
  If you are a violent ,hateful rapist, murderer, abuser all your life and on your last breath in the death chamber and ask for forgiveness for all your sins , you will be forgiven and sit with God . I do not believe it. There are many that dedicate their life to goodness . Why should criminals be granted the same rights , just for asking. If they believe in hell , why did they not do better in life. If you are afraid of hell , do not push the down button in the death elevator .
  Yes , said God , I forgive you , as we need someone to clean the toilets here.

                                          da prez

As Carl stated above. The thief on cross did just what you said you don't believe can happen.  True repentance is true repentance, until you take that last breath (most of the time) it's not too late. But it has to be true repentance and faith. Not just nice words from someone near death

My following comments are not to argue with either of you, but to hopefully add to the discussion of the concept of last-minute salvation.  It seems that many have the impression that one can live his life exactly as he pleases, sinning to whatever degree satisfies his desires, keeping in mind that at the last moment, with Death knocking at his door, he can play his get-out-of-jail-free card, say a magic prayer asking for forgiveness, then die and enter heaven with a clean slate and a smug smile on the countenance of his soul.  That's not how God describes salvation in His Word.  The words we speak when we ask for forgiveness and confess Jesus as Lord are not like a password that gets us in a door, but are, rather, an external expression of the work God has done and is doing within our hearts, and any good works that a true Christian does are a response to God's work in our regeneration and salvation, rather than a way to merit our salvation.

J. C. Ryle (1816-1900, Anglican Bishop of Liverpool, 1880-1900) wrote a classic book about the Christian life, Holiness: Its Nature, Hindrances, Difficulties and Roots, which contains a chapter discussing the two criminals crucified on either side of Jesus, titled Christ's Greatest Trophy!, which so far is the best I've read about the Luke 23:29-43 passage.  Quoted from this chapter (public domain):

Now these things are written for our warning. There is warning, as well as comfort in these verses — and that is a very solemn warning, too.

They tell me loudly, that though some may repent and be converted on their deathbeds — it does not at all follow that all will. A deathbed is not always a saving time.

They tell me loudly, that two men may have the same opportunities of getting good for their souls, may be placed in the same position, see the same things and hear the same things — and yet only one of the two shall take advantage of them, repent, believe and be saved.

They tell me, above all, that repentance and faith are the gifts of God and are not in a man's own power; and that if any one flatters himself he can repent at his own time, choose his own season, seek the Lord when he pleases and, like the penitent thief, be saved at the very last — he may find at length he is greatly deceived.

And it is good and profitable to bear this in mind. There is an immense amount of delusion in the world on this very subject. I see many allowing life to slip away, quite unprepared to die. I see many allowing that they ought to repent — but always putting off their own repentance. And I believe one grand reason is — that most men suppose they can turn to God just when they like! They wrest the parable of the laborer in the vineyard, which speaks of the eleventh hour, and use it as it never was meant to be used. They dwell on the pleasant part of the verses I am now considering, and forget the rest. They talk of the thief that went to paradise and was saved — and they forget the one who died as he had lived and was lost.

I entreat every man of common sense who reads this message, to take heed that he does not fall into this mistake.
...
You must not misunderstand me. I do not want to discourage you. I say these things in all affection, to give you warning of danger. I do not say them, to drive you back from Heaven. I say them rather to draw you on, and bring you to Christ, while He can be found.

I want you to beware of presumption. Do not abuse God's mercy and compassion. Do not continue in sin, I beseech you, and do you think can repent and believe and be saved, just when you like, when you please, when you will and when you choose. I would always set before you an open door. I would always say, 'While there is life — there is hope,' But if you would be wise, put nothing off that concerns your soul.

I want you to beware of letting good thoughts and godly convictions slip away, if you have them. Cherish them and nourish them, lest you lose them forever. Make the most of them, lest they take to themselves wings and flee away. Have you an inclination to begin praying? Put it in practice at once. Have you an idea of beginning really to serve Christ? Set about it at once. Are you enjoying any spiritual light? See that you live up to your light. Trifle not with opportunities, lest the day come when you will want to use them, and not be able. Linger not, lest you become wise too late.
 
You may say, perhaps, 'It is never too late to repent.' I answer, 'That is right enough; but late repentance is seldom true.' And I say further, you cannot be certain if you put off repenting, you will repent at all.

You may say, 'Why should I be afraid? The penitent thief was saved.' I answer, 'That is true; but look again at the passage which tells you that the other thief was lost.'
...
It is mournful to hear what people sometimes say about what they call deathbed evidences. It is very fearful to observe how little satisfies some people, and how easily they can persuade themselves that their friends have gone to Heaven. They will tell you when their relative is dead and gone, that 'he made such a beautiful prayer one day', or that 'he talked so well', or that 'he was so sorry for his old ways, and intended to live so differently if he got better', or that 'he craved nothing in this world', or that 'he liked people to read to him, and pray with him'. And because they have this to go upon, they seem to have a comfortable hope that he is saved! Christ may never have been named, the way of salvation may never have been in the least mentioned. But it matters not; there was a little talk of religion — and so they are content!

Now I have no desire to hurt the feelings of anyone who reads this message — but I must and will speak plainly upon this subject.

Once for all, let me say, that as a general rule,  nothing is so unsatisfactory as deathbed evidences. The things that men say, and the feelings they express when sick and frightened — are little to be depended on. Often, too often, they are the result of  fear — and do not spring from the ground of the heart. Often, too often, they are things said by rote, caught from the lips of ministers and anxious friends — but evidently not felt. And nothing can prove all this more clearly than the well-known fact, that the great majority of people who make promises of amendment on a sick bed, and then for the first time talk about religion — if they recover, go back to sin and the world!

When a man has lived a life of thoughtlessness and folly, I want something more than a few fair words and good wishes to satisfy me about his soul, when he comes to his deathbed. It is not enough for me that he will let me read the Bible to him, and pray by his bedside, that he says, he has 'not thought so much as he ought of religion, and he thinks he would be a different man if he got better.' All this does not content me; it does not make me feel happy about his state. It is very well as far as it goes — but it is not conversion. It is very well in its way — but it is not genuine faith in Christ. Until I see conversion, and faith in Christ — I cannot and dare not feel satisfied. Others may feel satisfied if they please, and after their friend's death say, they hope he is gone to Heaven. For my part, I would rather hold my tongue and say nothing. I would be content with the least measure of repentance and faith in a dying man, even though it be no bigger than a grain of mustard seed. But to be content with anything less than repentance and faith, seems to me next door to infidelity.

Online book:
https://www.gracegems.org/Ryle/holiness.htm

Downloadable versions:
https://www.monergism.com/holiness-ebook

[3fan4life]

As I'm burning up all my willpower to NOT get into the actual subject of this post since discussing it generally just leads to angst and animosity between folks that are otherwise friends, the individual misspellings within the thread don't bother me, as I'm doing my best to only casually peruse the thread, and all the little annoyances tagged to each individual reply only serve as a swarm of reminders that I have no business reading too deeply into this thread, and a reminder to move on.

I do sincerely thank you for your concern as to the level of mucus present in my system. Being springtime here in The Republic, the level is indeed quite high, and very much in motion as it drips continuously from one's nasal passages.

I can't speak for others here, but as far as I'm concerned religion is not a total taboo topic of discussion.

It is a discussion that does need to be held respectfully by all parties involved.

Religious beliefs are some of the most deeply held beliefs that a person can have.

Including those who hold the belief that there is NO God.


If my memory serves me correctly (and it may not) it seems to me that you stated in a previous thread that you were more  of an Agnostic than an Atheist.

A fine line of separation to be sure, but an important one.

An Atheist believes that there is no God.

An Agnostic believes that the existence of God can never be proven nor disproven.  

The Agnostic view is one that I can understand.

I cannot prove to you that there is a God.

But I know that He is real.

I know that God is real because of what He has done for me in my life and in the lives of family and friends.

Because I know and I believe, I have faith that He is real.

I cannot provide you or anyone else with concrete physical proof that God is real.

But, I know that what I know is real.


Atheism on the other hand, I absolutely cannot understand.

I fully understand why people have different ideas about who or what God is.

I cannot understand how anyone can completely deny the existence of a supreme being.


How anyone can stand on a mountaintop looking at beautiful valleys and other mountains and say to themselves, "There is NO God",  is way beyond my comprehension.

How anyone can stand beside the ocean and say to themselves, "There is No God",  is way beyond my comprehension .

How anyone can look at the desert sky on a cloudless, moonless night and say to themselves, "There is NO God" , is beyond my comprehension.


I have experienced each of these things many times and each time my thought was, God is AWESOME!



  

[Willow]

Atheists or agnostics - The only way one could know that there is no God would be if he knew everything, everything of the whole universe.  If he knew everything that would make him God.   

My following comments are not to argue with either of you, but to hopefully add to the discussion of the concept of last-minute salvation.  It seems that many have the impression that one can live his life exactly as he pleases, sinning to whatever degree satisfies his desires, keeping in mind that at the last moment, with Death knocking at his door, he can play his get-out-of-jail-free card, say a magic prayer asking for forgiveness, then die and enter heaven with a clean slate and a smug smile on the countenance of his soul.  That's not how God describes salvation in His Word.  The words we speak when we ask for forgiveness and confess Jesus as Lord are not like a password that gets us in a door, but are, rather, an external expression of the work God has done and is doing within our hearts, and any good works that a true Christian does are a response to God's work in our regeneration and salvation, rather than a way to merit our salvation.

G. Rider, I agree with almost everything you have to say but almost nothing that your Anglican Bishop wrote.  He spoke directly from his own feelings and logic without bothering to draw any reasoning from where he should have sought it.  I hope you're not Anglican or the Canadian equivalent.  I wouldn't want to offend you.

What you said regarding good works is spot on.  We don't do good in order to be saved.  We do good in response to being saved.  Furthermore we are not saved simply in order to get into heaven but to live as God's servants.  He doesn't simply save us from the result of our sins but He saves us from our sinning.

When the apostles were asked what must one do to be saved they replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."  Understanding what depth is mean by "believe" may take a lifetime of study but it is more than just a magic few words in a prayer.

As to deathbed conversions, the Scripture does give us an example.  I'm not certain who the bishop believes he is to contradict that.  To say that not all deathbed apparent conversions are real is very safe.  Truthfully many apparent Christian lives are also not genuine.  We don't know.  God knows.  To make the claim that most deathbed repentance is false is to drop us back into the heresy that Heaven is a reward for our good works and disregards the atonement of Jesus Christ.

It would be indeed a poor decision for one to plan on living a life of sin and "repenting" on his deathbed.  Then again living a life of sin as a "Christian" and depending upon a few words in an old prayer is not very wise either.

Back to the original question.  An atheist, or even an agnostic, cannot go into an eternity with the God he has not accepted.  An atheist, though, can be saved.  He can repent and no longer be an atheist.  I believe that real repentance is of the heart, not necessarily what goes on for everyone else to see.  We don't always know what goes on within the heart.  We can sometimes see the evidence on the outside.  God knows.  I'll leave it up to Him.         

[Dave Ritsema]

Quite some time ago before I began my Christian journey in earnest (that is still very much a work in progress) I had a conversation with a co-worker regarding going to Heaven. I said that I felt like I lived a pretty good life, didn't cheat people and tried to treat people kindly, be a good father and husband and had helped quite a few people and saved some lives with my Fire Department career and I figured that should count for something. His reply, "Well you well may be the nicest guy in Hell".

I didn't get the significance of what he said for many years and at first I think I was even a little offended. What I did learn much later is my actions would never get me to Heaven, the only way was thru Jesus. I still make plenty of mistakes and do things all the time that I am sure makes my Lord shake his head but that part is now crystal clear to me.

[Chrisj CMA]

Quite some time ago before I began my Christian journey in earnest (that is still very much a work in progress) I had a conversation with a co-worker regarding going to Heaven. I said that I felt like I lived a pretty good life, didn't cheat people and tried to treat people kindly, be a good father and husband and had helped quite a few people and saved some lives with my Fire Department career and I figured that should count for something. His reply, "Well you well may be the nicest guy in Hell".

I didn't get the significance of what he said for many years and at first I think I was even a little offended. What I did learn much later is my actions would never get me to Heaven, the only way was thru Jesus. I still make plenty of mistakes and do things all the time that I am sure makes my Lord shake his head but that part is now crystal clear to me.

Sounds like you have been moving down the right road on that journey of yours

[Valkorado]

Quite some time ago before I began my Christian journey in earnest (that is still very much a work in progress) I had a conversation with a co-worker regarding going to Heaven. I said that I felt like I lived a pretty good life, didn't cheat people and tried to treat people kindly, be a good father and husband and had helped quite a few people and saved some lives with my Fire Department career and I figured that should count for something. His reply, "Well you well may be the nicest guy in Hell".

I didn't get the significance of what he said for many years and at first I think I was even a little offended. What I did learn much later is my actions would never get me to Heaven, the only way was thru Jesus. I still make plenty of mistakes and do things all the time that I am sure makes my Lord shake his head but that part is now crystal clear to me.

[Gryphon Rider]

Atheists or agnostics - The only way one could know that there is no God would be if he knew everything, everything of the whole universe.  If he knew everything that would make him God.   

My following comments are not to argue with either of you, but to hopefully add to the discussion of the concept of last-minute salvation.  It seems that many have the impression that one can live his life exactly as he pleases, sinning to whatever degree satisfies his desires, keeping in mind that at the last moment, with Death knocking at his door, he can play his get-out-of-jail-free card, say a magic prayer asking for forgiveness, then die and enter heaven with a clean slate and a smug smile on the countenance of his soul.  That's not how God describes salvation in His Word.  The words we speak when we ask for forgiveness and confess Jesus as Lord are not like a password that gets us in a door, but are, rather, an external expression of the work God has done and is doing within our hearts, and any good works that a true Christian does are a response to God's work in our regeneration and salvation, rather than a way to merit our salvation.

G. Rider, I agree with almost everything you have to say but almost nothing that your Anglican Bishop wrote.  He spoke directly from his own feelings and logic without bothering to draw any reasoning from where he should have sought it.  I hope you're not Anglican or the Canadian equivalent.  I wouldn't want to offend you.

What you said regarding good works is spot on.  We don't do good in order to be saved.  We do good in response to being saved.  Furthermore we are not saved simply in order to get into heaven but to live as God's servants.  He doesn't simply save us from the result of our sins but He saves us from our sinning.

When the apostles were asked what must one do to be saved they replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."  Understanding what depth is mean by "believe" may take a lifetime of study but it is more than just a magic few words in a prayer.

As to deathbed conversions, the Scripture does give us an example.  I'm not certain who the bishop believes he is to contradict that.  To say that not all deathbed apparent conversions are real is very safe.  Truthfully many apparent Christian lives are also not genuine.  We don't know.  God knows.  To make the claim that most deathbed repentance is false is to drop us back into the heresy that Heaven is a reward for our good works and disregards the atonement of Jesus Christ.

It would be indeed a poor decision for one to plan on living a life of sin and "repenting" on his deathbed.  Then again living a life of sin as a "Christian" and depending upon a few words in an old prayer is not very wise either.

Back to the original question.  An atheist, or even an agnostic, cannot go into an eternity with the God he has not accepted.  An atheist, though, can be saved.  He can repent and no longer be an atheist.  I believe that real repentance is of the heart, not necessarily what goes on for everyone else to see.  We don't always know what goes on within the heart.  We can sometimes see the evidence on the outside.  God knows.  I'll leave it up to Him.         

Willow, first of all I am not a member of the Anglican church, which is one of the larger denominations in Canada.  I don't think J. C. Ryle would be happy with the state of Anglicanism in Canada, although there is probably a large enough variety of faith and practise within the Church of England for him to find a home in a congregation somewhere there, were he still living.  In any case, if you were to take issue with the words of a leader within the denomination that my congregation belongs to, I would not take personal offence.

I am not sure what of Ryle's words you take issue with.  Saying you agree with almost none of it makes me think that you have misread it, especially since you say that you agree with what I wrote, as Ryle is saying much the same thing, but adding that deathbed confessions of faith are often motivated by fear of death rather than by God working repentance and faith in the heart of the dying.  Perhaps it would help to read the entire chapter?

[Robert]

1Co 5:5  I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Co 5:13  But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I reread JC Ryles quote and it sounds like man to me. Not one that is looking for harm just one that is not allowing for the power of God. Quote: "When a man has lived a life of thoughtlessness and folly, I want something more than a few fair words and good wishes to satisfy me about his soul, when he comes to his deathbed".

How can a man in the natural judge another mans intentions unless he is led by the spirit of God? This becomes God revealing the heart of one man to another and its Gods judgement not another mans.

Did God chose the apostles based on the works they did? Or did He know what each mans heart was. Man views things so much differently than God does. People looked at the apostles and saw unlearned men even drunks. Yet God saw something so much different.

Heb 4:11  Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Heb 4:13  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

[Gryphon Rider]

1Co 5:5  I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Co 5:13  But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I reread JC Ryles quote and it sounds like man to me. Not one that is looking for harm just one that is not allowing for the power of God. Quote: "When a man has lived a life of thoughtlessness and folly, I want something more than a few fair words and good wishes to satisfy me about his soul, when he comes to his deathbed".

How can a man in the natural judge another mans intentions unless he is led by the spirit of God? This becomes God revealing the heart of one man to another and its Gods judgement not another mans.

I don't think Ryle is saying he is determining for certain that someone recently departed is saved or not.  I think that when a loved one or parishioner dies there is a temptation to assure oneself or the deceased's survivors that the departed is resting in heaven, with the only evidence being that they repeated a prayer, or enjoyed a scripture reading or a hymn, or took communion.

If the only fruit of a declaration of someone's heavenly destination was that people were comforted, such a declaration would do no harm.  But assuring survivors that their loved one is in heaven despite lack of evidence of repentance and a changed life puts those hearers who are unsaved in mortal danger of hell.  Because the clergyman (or Christian friend) said that the departed is in heaven, then surely they can live their own lives as they wish, as pagans, and at the end they can say a little prayer and escape God's judgement.

Ryle isn't saying that after someone's death he would pronounce the dead unsaved, but rather, "Others may feel satisfied if they please, and after their friend's death say, they hope he is gone to Heaven. For my part, I would rather hold my tongue and say nothing."

He's not just talking off the top of his head when he says, "a few fair words and good wishes... does not make me feel happy about his state. It is very well as far as it goes — but it is not conversion," because Ryle experiences the "well-known fact, that the great majority of people who make promises of amendment on a sick bed, and then for the first time talk about religion — if they recover, go back to sin and the world!"

We can't see the inner workings of a man's heart, and it is possible for someone to fool others into thinking he is more righteous than he actually is, but when someone puts their defiance of God on display for all to see, we can certainly draw some conclusions about the state of his heart.  The 1 Corinthians verses you quote address this issue when it happens within the church, but this is certainly a different issue than the one at hand, namely the destination of those who lived their lives as pagans, outside the church.

[J.Mencalice]

"I don't like to commit myself on heaven and hell.  You see, I have friends in both places."
-Mark Twain-

 

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
-Will Rogers-

[98valk]

This California State Assembly bill would BAN the Bible!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=17&v=siTCwnsGjSk

what china and the USSR did when the communists took over.

[Robert]

    Because the clergyman (or Christian friend) said that the departed is in heaven, then surely they can live their own lives as they wish, as pagans, and at the end they can say a little prayer and escape God's judgement.

 I find it funny that the Bishop would worry about the witness of one statement in a persons life saying it would possibly condemn them to hell when they have all the sermons, Holy Spirit, people, bible God's laws written on their heart and much more that declare the truth and just the opposite of this worry.

The rich man and Lazarus is a perfect example.

Luk 16:31  "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

satan is a liar and the father of all lies if someone willingly embraces an error rather than the truth we know who's disciple he is. Or maybe the Bishop needs to rethink the influence of his sermons. LOL

[Jess from VA]

This discussion would not seem complete without mention of purgatory (as I believe created by the Catholics in around the 11th century).  My religious schooling was fairly compete in my youth through HS (Presbyterian), but is far inferior to most here who have continued throughout their lives.

The Catholics earned a bad reputation for this way back selling indulgences and prayers for the dead (still sitting in purgatory) seemingly making people able to buy their way into heaven (while the poor could not).

There is little to no scripture supporting purgatory, though some small amount has been found to support such an idea through loose interpretation.  

I believe a big part of the Protestant reformation was about bad High Church practices, including purgatory, and the reformers wrote that praying dead people into heaven was a big waste of time (and that actually makes pretty good sense, as far as it goes).

Still, it seems that various protestant denominations still have some passing concurrence or version of purgatory, though mostly the protestants say it is nonsense, and too much in line with getting to heaven with old testament good works, vrs new testament getting there with being saved and faith in the Christian God and Jesus.

There have always been two general versions of purgatory.  The main one, a Hades-like punishment paying up God's justice.  And the other (and more in line with Protestantism), a period of gaining grace and reaffirmed faith to be pure enough for admittance to heaven.  Durations of purgatory vary from a month or two to 5000 years.

In reading about purgatory, the interesting point made (to me) is .... what about people who have spent a whole lifetime and never been exposed to Christianity (or any organized religion) at all?  Are they to be left out of heaven simply because they were never exposed to the concept of faith (and otherwise lived good decent, non sinful lives)?  That seems a bit unfair.  And the kind of life that might merit a purgatory period of gaining grace for later admittance.

The resurrection of Christ, perhaps the single most important foundation of all of Christianity, took three days.  Wasn't that three days of purgatory (for things like whipping the money changers out of the temple)?     
  

[Gryphon Rider]

   Because the clergyman (or Christian friend) said that the departed is in heaven, then surely they can live their own lives as they wish, as pagans, and at the end they can say a little prayer and escape God's judgement.

 I find it funny that the Bishop would worry about the witness of one statement in a persons life saying it would possibly condemn them to hell when they have all the sermons, Holy Spirit, people, bible God's laws written on their heart and much more that declare the truth and just the opposite of this worry.

The rich man and Lazarus is a perfect example.

Luk 16:31  "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

satan is a liar and the father of all lies if someone willingly embraces an error rather than the truth we know who's disciple he is. Or maybe the Bishop needs to rethink the influence of his sermons. LOL

And "Christians" who promote error or lies, or who quote the errors or lies of others uncritically, may be demonstrating who's disciple they truly are:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. - John 8:44
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

Every Christian is a representative of Christ, and needs to be extremely careful of his words, that they reflect the truth of God's Word:

I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. - 1 Timothy 3:14b-15 (NIV)

Leaders within the church need to be extremely careful about what they say and do, and regardless of what influence Ryle thinks he has on others, he is heeding God's warning:

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. - James 3:1 (NIV)

While the Bible teaches that it is God who saves, His chosen method to accomplish this involves faithful preaching:

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” - Romans 10:14-15 (NIV)

So, when Ryle is being extremely careful with his words, he is obeying Christ's command, given through the Apostle Paul:

Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless... He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. - Titus 1:7-9 (NIV)

** EDIT **
I thought I was quoting the ESV Bible translation above, but have since discovered that at the web site I used I had at some point switched it to NIV, so all I have cited above is actually from the NIV.

[..]

Why do you even think an atheist would care?

[Willow]

Why do you even think an atheist would care?

Apparently you didn't bother to read the post before replying.  It was not the atheist but his young son that was concerned and brought up the question to the Pope of the Catholic church.

[Gryphon Rider]

Why do you even think an atheist would care?

I don't think anyone has stated that atheists are concerned about their post-death destination, as most (if not all) atheists believe that once someone dies, they eternally cease to exist as a sentient being.  The question is, what do those who believe in God and post-death existence believe happens to the soul of someone who dies an atheist.

[Chrisj CMA]

This discussion would not seem complete without mention of purgatory (as I believe created by the Catholics in around the 11th century).  My religious schooling was fairly compete in my youth through HS (Presbyterian), but is far inferior to most here who have continued throughout their lives.

The Catholics earned a bad reputation for this way back selling indulgences and prayers for the dead (still sitting in purgatory) seemingly making people able to buy their way into heaven (while the poor could not).

There is little to no scripture supporting purgatory, though some small amount has been found to support such an idea through loose interpretation.  

I believe a big part of the Protestant reformation was about bad High Church practices, including purgatory, and the reformers wrote that praying dead people into heaven was a big waste of time (and that actually makes pretty good sense, as far as it goes).

Still, it seems that various protestant denominations still have some passing concurrence or version of purgatory, though mostly the protestants say it is nonsense, and too much in line with getting to heaven with old testament good works, vrs new testament getting there with being saved and faith in the Christian God and Jesus.

There have always been two general versions of purgatory.  The main one, a Hades-like punishment paying up God's justice.  And the other (and more in line with Protestantism), a period of gaining grace and reaffirmed faith to be pure enough for admittance to heaven.  Durations of purgatory vary from a month or two to 5000 years.

In reading about purgatory, the interesting point made (to me) is .... what about people who have spent a whole lifetime and never been exposed to Christianity (or any organized religion) at all?  Are they to be left out of heaven simply because they were never exposed to the concept of faith (and otherwise lived good decent, non sinful lives)?  That seems a bit unfair.  And the kind of life that might merit a purgatory period of gaining grace for later admittance.

The resurrection of Christ, perhaps the single most important foundation of all of Christianity, took three days.  Wasn't that three days of purgatory (for things like whipping the money changers out of the temple)?     
  

You said it at the beginning....Catholics invented purgatory to make money.  There is no such thing and no Biblical reference to such a thing as purgatory.  The Bible says to whom much is given; much is expected.  So the opposite must be true.  if you have been given little than little is expected.  Romans Ch1 says that creation cries out that there is a creator and no one has an excuse to not believe in God.  To those that have clearly heard the Gospel, believing in God is clearly not enough as the demons believe that and tremble.  But to those that have heard nothing and still acknowledge a creator/ intelligent design, less is expected I'm sure for them to have a chance at redemption.

[Chrisj CMA]

Why do you even think an atheist would care?

I don't think anyone has stated that atheists are concerned about their post-death destination, as most (if not all) atheists believe that once someone dies, they eternally cease to exist as a sentient being.  The question is, what do those who believe in God and post-death existence believe happens to the soul of someone who dies an atheist.

As far as them being an atheist, that ends at death.  When they stand (or I should say Kneel or fall prostrate) before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgement and hear those fateful words "depart from me I never knew you" they will be knowing how wrong they have been, they will go into the lake of fire believing that Jesus is God himself and they were so wrong during life.

[Gryphon Rider]

This discussion would not seem complete without mention of purgatory (as I believe created by the Catholics in around the 11th century).  My religious schooling was fairly compete in my youth through HS (Presbyterian), but is far inferior to most here who have continued throughout their lives.

The Catholics earned a bad reputation for this way back selling indulgences and prayers for the dead (still sitting in purgatory) seemingly making people able to buy their way into heaven (while the poor could not).

There is little to no scripture supporting purgatory, though some small amount has been found to support such an idea through loose interpretation.  

I believe a big part of the Protestant reformation was about bad High Church practices, including purgatory, and the reformers wrote that praying dead people into heaven was a big waste of time (and that actually makes pretty good sense, as far as it goes).

Still, it seems that various protestant denominations still have some passing concurrence or version of purgatory, though mostly the protestants say it is nonsense, and too much in line with getting to heaven with old testament good works, vrs new testament getting there with being saved and faith in the Christian God and Jesus.

There have always been two general versions of purgatory.  The main one, a Hades-like punishment paying up God's justice.  And the other (and more in line with Protestantism), a period of gaining grace and reaffirmed faith to be pure enough for admittance to heaven.  Durations of purgatory vary from a month or two to 5000 years.

In reading about purgatory, the interesting point made (to me) is .... what about people who have spent a whole lifetime and never been exposed to Christianity (or any organized religion) at all?  Are they to be left out of heaven simply because they were never exposed to the concept of faith (and otherwise lived good decent, non sinful lives)?  That seems a bit unfair.  And the kind of life that might merit a purgatory period of gaining grace for later admittance.

The resurrection of Christ, perhaps the single most important foundation of all of Christianity, took three days.  Wasn't that three days of purgatory (for things like whipping the money changers out of the temple)?

I am unaware of any Protestant denomination that teaches the existence of purgatory, particularly as a place to be held while being punished for their sins, after which they will be eligible for heaven.  As there seems to be more and more unorthodox teaching entering the Evangelical church, I wouldn't be too surprised if you could come up with examples, however.

To those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the Earth to save (Ephesians 1:4), He will send someone to preach the Gospel.  There is no such thing as a person who has otherwise lived a non-sinful life (see John 3:17 & Romans 3, especially v. 23).

[The emperor has no clothes]

Why do you even think an atheist would care?

Apparently you didn't bother to read the post before replying.  It was not the atheist but his young son that was concerned and brought up the question to the Pope of the Catholic church.

It was the young boys plight that drew me into the story. A true atheist probably doesn’t care. But a young boys love for his father is very compelling in this circumstance.

[f6john]

What would be worse for me is to have a son who is an atheist.

[Robert]

I find the fact that we are stuck on this point of preaching the truth, ironic.

We have ministers, preachers,pastors, bishops, elders,  who definitely know the truth and worry about getting out the right message to the point that they judge and condemn others even lay people who do not follow the exact path that they think is right. But there is only a small problem we have many denominations, many individual preachers. The Catholic church not only does not model Jesus when He walked the earth and doesn't even teach the truth and each denomination has their own version of the truth. Heck we even had some dark times in church history that many were killed over the false gospel. The fact that the church would not allow the common man to read a bible and if found you did you were put to death. This fact led to the birth of our nation also. Some denominations dont even use the bible as the point of truth having their own version. While most agree on the majority of the truth they disagree on many points and by your standards most are lost or at least have given a false gospel and many have fallen because of this.

When I was a boy I was taught about sin but somehow they forgot mercy,grace,love,healing,miracles, and even the famous quote that Jesus said let the little ones come its to them belong the Kingdom of heaven. So it took me 30 more years to accept Christ as my Savior. Jesus is so beautiful and unlike any body or anything that you can imagine. This beauty goes beyond appearance and moves you down to your core. Ministers are supposed to be a reflection of this yet I dont see many who have this in their lives.

1Co 3:18  Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. 
1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; 
1Co 3:20  and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." 
1Co 3:21  So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 
1Co 3:22  whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 
1Co 3:23  and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. 

[¿spoom]

HELL EXPLAINED BY A CHEMISTRY STUDENT

The following is an actual question given on a University of Arizona chemistry mid term, and an actual answer turned in by a student.
The answer by one student was so 'profound' that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well : Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving, which is unlikely... I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave.
Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.
Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, 'It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct ... leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting 'Oh my God.'

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED AN A+.

One of the truly great answers ever.  And if my ex Jewish wife is correct it would fall in life with the Jewish belief that there is no hell.  Oss can correct me if she was wrong.

I took that essay answer as a pretty funny joke...no sound theology there at all...lol

You are most wise, grasshopper.

[Serk]

What would be worse for me is to have a son who is an atheist.

My mom's still upset with me about that little detail, I could lie to her to ease her heart (Like my dad has reluctantly admitted to me he's done), but that, to me, would be a far greater evil than being honest with her, even if the Truth hurts her.

Kinda ironic, I have to keep talking to my kids, their teachers (Yes, in public schools) keep assuming they're Christians, and "teaching" them thusly; I have to keep telling them otherwise. The kids keep telling me about Jesus and praying and stuff, and I hafta wonder where THAT'S coming from, since it sure isn't from home...

(By them, I mean the kids, not the teachers...)

(Briefly as I can manage to address an earlier post, I identify as an Atheist to the casual observer, an Agnostic to the slightly more observant, and if you REALLY care, I'm an Agnostic Atheist - I'm almost positive there is nothing, but I think that to say there 100% IS NOTHING is almost as out there as to say there IS and his name is Yahweh and he doesn't want you to eat meat on Fridays except for fish or Capybara, especially during 40-46 days in the spring ending on the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs on or soonest after the 21st of March. I AM approaching 100% certainty that if there is "something" out there, is has nothing to do with any man-made religions (And yes, your personal relationship with Jesus is a religion.)

And, at the risk of offending some, frankly if there IS a God, and if it IS the Christian God, and if His judgement is purely based on if a person has used the brain they were given to deduct His non-existence and refused to take a knee, NOT on the good vs. evil they've done during their lives, even with knowledge that free will is an illusion, as our brains are biological computers programmed from the moment of conception, even with all that, He refuses admittance to heaven purely based on if you believe or not... Then I don't want to go there. If He's so petty that He cares not how one has lived their life but purely on if they've bowed down to his awesomeness... Then count me out. I'd rather go to "the other place."

One final point - It was mentioned earlier that faith was a choice. I disagree. I could SAY I believe, but does that make it so? I know in my heart I don't, there's nothing that could change that, so if I were to claim faith when there is none, wouldn't that be a lie before God itself?
And if I have no faith in my heart, is there nothing I could do to put it there? Logic and reason guide me, and show me there is nothing, there is no decision involved.

Okay... I promised I'd stay out of this one. I'll probably regret dipping my toes in to it. I've had a long day and am wiped out tired which has lowered my defenses, but there ya' go... I will say if you have a religion, and it brings you comfort and/or happiness, I'm genuinely happy for you, enjoy it, take solstice in it.

...and I'll see ya'll on the road...

[The emperor has no clothes]

What would be worse for me is to have a son who is an atheist.

My mom's still upset with me about that little detail, I could lie to her to ease her heart (Like my dad has reluctantly admitted to me he's done), but that, to me, would be a far greater evil than being honest with her, even if the Truth hurts her.

Kinda ironic, I have to keep talking to my kids, their teachers (Yes, in public schools) keep assuming they're Christians, and "teaching" them thusly; I have to keep telling them otherwise. The kids keep telling me about Jesus and praying and stuff, and I hafta wonder where THAT'S coming from, since it sure isn't from home...

(By them, I mean the kids, not the teachers...)

(Briefly as I can manage to address an earlier post, I identify as an Atheist to the casual observer, an Agnostic to the slightly more observant, and if you REALLY care, I'm an Agnostic Atheist - I'm almost positive there is nothing, but I think that to say there 100% IS NOTHING is almost as out there as to say there IS and his name is Yahweh and he doesn't want you to eat meat on Fridays except for fish or Capybara, especially during 40-46 days in the spring ending on the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs on or soonest after the 21st of March. I AM approaching 100% certainty that if there is "something" out there, is has nothing to do with any man-made religions (And yes, your personal relationship with Jesus is a religion.)

And, at the risk of offending some, frankly if there IS a God, and if it IS the Christian God, and if His judgement is purely based on if a person has used the brain they were given to deduct His non-existence and refused to take a knee, NOT on the good vs. evil they've done during their lives, even with knowledge that free will is an illusion, as our brains are biological computers programmed from the moment of conception, even with all that, He refuses admittance to heaven purely based on if you believe or not... Then I don't want to go there. If He's so petty that He cares not how one has lived their life but purely on if they've bowed down to his awesomeness... Then count me out. I'd rather go to "the other place."

One final point - It was mentioned earlier that faith was a choice. I disagree. I could SAY I believe, but does that make it so? I know in my heart I don't, there's nothing that could change that, so if I were to claim faith when there is none, wouldn't that be a lie before God itself?
And if I have no faith in my heart, is there nothing I could do to put it there? Logic and reason guide me, and show me there is nothing, there is no decision involved.

Okay... I promised I'd stay out of this one. I'll probably regret dipping my toes in to it. I've had a long day and am wiped out tired which has lowered my defenses, but there ya' go... I will say if you have a religion, and it brings you comfort and/or happiness, I'm genuinely happy for you, enjoy it, take solstice in it.

...and I'll see ya'll on the road...

I for one, am glad you weighed in. I see NOTHING that should offend anyone. (Solace ?)

[Robert]

...and I'll see ya'll on the road...

Things change, good post  sleep well

I would like to explain one point I have learned about faith, since that was one thing I took notice of in your post. I only want to do this since I see a misconception about it from your explanation. Hope you dont mind.

Each person is given a measure of faith and faith like love is active not passive. Its not something we will or think into existence. If you do not use faith it fades just like love, Love is usually not something that happens all at once it builds and shapes us to accept more and more the person that is the object of our love, so it is with faith. As we love it changes us, just like faith. As we love someone and we trust that person through thick and thin we love them all the more they become part of us, just like faith.

When at first we want to find out who God is and read and hear the stories we have a bit of faith, that was the faith given us. As we walk with God and our eyes are opened and the things change around us by prayer or God showing us things we have more faith. As trials come and God walks us through them and we are victorious in many different ways our faith further grows. When we pray and people get healed or a word that God gave us for someone we told them comes true and we know the voice of God our faith grows. Complete faith is not something we are born with. The apostles were some of the most faithless individuals on Jesus life and death. But faith filled when their ministry started is a learning and changing process and is very natural. Its no different than learning to drive a motorcycle. When we start we dont know if we can do it, the more time spent in the saddle the more we know we can.

[Gryphon Rider]

I find the fact that we are stuck on this point of preaching the truth, ironic.

We have ministers, preachers,pastors, bishops, elders,  who definitely know the truth and worry about getting out the right message to the point that they judge and condemn others even lay people who do not follow the exact path that they think is right. But there is only a small problem we have many denominations, many individual preachers. The Catholic church not only does not model Jesus when He walked the earth and doesn't even teach the truth and each denomination has their own version of the truth. Heck we even had some dark times in church history that many were killed over the false gospel. The fact that the church would not allow the common man to read a bible and if found you did you were put to death. This fact led to the birth of our nation also. Some denominations dont even use the bible as the point of truth having their own version. While most agree on the majority of the truth they disagree on many points and by your standards most are lost or at least have given a false gospel and many have fallen because of this.

When I was a boy I was taught about sin but somehow they forgot mercy,grace,love,healing,miracles, and even the famous quote that Jesus said let the little ones come its to them belong the Kingdom of heaven. So it took me 30 more years to accept Christ as my Savior. Jesus is so beautiful and unlike any body or anything that you can imagine. This beauty goes beyond appearance and moves you down to your core. Ministers are supposed to be a reflection of this yet I dont see many who have this in their lives.

1Co 3:18  Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
1Co 3:20  and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."
1Co 3:21  So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
1Co 3:22  whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
1Co 3:23  and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

Regarding your first point that I have highlighted in bold, I think being stuck on preaching the truth is a good thing, as did Christ, Paul, and other Biblical writers.  Why do you think the truth is unimportant, or at least can be fudged if it serves man's purpose?  Or am I misunderstanding you?

Regarding your other point that I highlighted in bold, It could be that you have either (1) been going to the wrong churches, where the ministers have lost the love they had at first, like the church at Ephesus did, according to the message Christ had for them that John dictated in Revelation 2:1-7, or (2) that you have the idea that all ministers should experience and reflect Christ in exactly the way you do and think they should, and that their relating of the love, mercy, grace, healing, and miracles of Christ be given higher prominence within their preaching, perhaps even greater prominence than fulfilling the Great Commission (make disciples, baptise them, and teach them to do all He has commanded), perhaps not teaching about the holiness, wrath, and judgement of God.  I hope it's because of (1).

In Acts 20:17-38, Paul requests a meeting with the elders of the church at Ephesus to give them final encouragement before he went to Jerusalem to possibly face persecution and imprisonment.  One of the points he emphasized was that he declared the whole counsel (or will, or purpose, depending on the translation) of God (v. 27), which meant that he would be innocent of the blood of all, meaning that if any Ephesians turned away from Christ, it would not be because he withheld any of God's truth, testifying both to Jews and to Greeks [i.e. everyone] of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (v. 22).

Not declaring the whole truth of salvation, declaring people saved who don't show convincing evidence of salvation is giving false assurance, is being the opposite of merciful, and is cruel, because it leads many to believe they are saved who may not actually be saved, thus removing the incentive to heed Christ's call to true repentance and true faith.

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. - Matthew 16:24-27 (ESV)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” - Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)

BTW, the main purpose of miracles performed by Christ, the Apostles, and members of the early church given the sign gifts was not primarily to ease suffering, or show kindness, or amaze people (although they certainly did this), but rather to bear witness to the message they were preaching, i.e. to show that God was the source of their message, that it was Truth.

Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst... - Acts 2:22

Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. - Hebrews 2:1-4

[Gryphon Rider]

My mom's still upset with me about that little detail, I could lie to her to ease her heart (Like my dad has reluctantly admitted to me he's done), but that, to me, would be a far greater evil than being honest with her, even if the Truth hurts her.

Kinda ironic, I have to keep talking to my kids, their teachers (Yes, in public schools) keep assuming they're Christians, and "teaching" them thusly; I have to keep telling them otherwise. The kids keep telling me about Jesus and praying and stuff, and I hafta wonder where THAT'S coming from, since it sure isn't from home...

(By them, I mean the kids, not the teachers...)

(Briefly as I can manage to address an earlier post, I identify as an Atheist to the casual observer, an Agnostic to the slightly more observant, and if you REALLY care, I'm an Agnostic Atheist - I'm almost positive there is nothing, but I think that to say there 100% IS NOTHING is almost as out there as to say there IS and his name is Yahweh and he doesn't want you to eat meat on Fridays except for fish or Capybara, especially during 40-46 days in the spring ending on the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs on or soonest after the 21st of March. I AM approaching 100% certainty that if there is "something" out there, is has nothing to do with any man-made religions (And yes, your personal relationship with Jesus is a religion.)

And, at the risk of offending some, frankly if there IS a God, and if it IS the Christian God, and if His judgement is purely based on if a person has used the brain they were given to deduct His non-existence and refused to take a knee, NOT on the good vs. evil they've done during their lives, even with knowledge that free will is an illusion, as our brains are biological computers programmed from the moment of conception, even with all that, He refuses admittance to heaven purely based on if you believe or not... Then I don't want to go there. If He's so petty that He cares not how one has lived their life but purely on if they've bowed down to his awesomeness... Then count me out. I'd rather go to "the other place."

One final point - It was mentioned earlier that faith was a choice. I disagree. I could SAY I believe, but does that make it so? I know in my heart I don't, there's nothing that could change that, so if I were to claim faith when there is none, wouldn't that be a lie before God itself?
And if I have no faith in my heart, is there nothing I could do to put it there? Logic and reason guide me, and show me there is nothing, there is no decision involved.

Okay... I promised I'd stay out of this one. I'll probably regret dipping my toes in to it. I've had a long day and am wiped out tired which has lowered my defenses, but there ya' go... I will say if you have a religion, and it brings you comfort and/or happiness, I'm genuinely happy for you, enjoy it, take solstice in it.

...and I'll see ya'll on the road...

Someone very dear to me has declared themselves an unbeliever, and that the belief they showed previously was to "go along" rather than true belief.  I am glad this person was honest with me, although the knowledge of their eternal state, should they die in their unbelief, brings me great sorrow.  Salvific faith is a gift from God, which is given with the greatest miracle of all, the regeneration of the person's spirit.  I pray that you, Serk, will be given this gift.  In the meantime, I take no offence at your sincere thoughts.  I'm glad you kept reading long enough for your defenses to be lowered.
 

[Robert]

I agree with most all of your post but,  

Php 2:12  So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Joh 5:21  "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 
Joh 5:22  "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 

1Co 3:12  Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 
1Co 3:13  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 
1Co 3:14  If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 
1Co 3:15  If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 



The assurance of salvation and salvation does not come from man but from God in men's hearts. The accuracy of the gospel shared is important but not to the point we have to worry about every word spoken. Its the Holy Spirit that makes the words relevant and makes us understand what is being said and the context not man. Just like the bible is made to come alive by the spirit without that its pretty boring. Its the Spirit that even brings things to our remembrance. We should be accurate in hearing the spirit and in relaying what He has to say, that is what is important.

I only gave the example of different denominations and people to say people get saved and begin to know the Lord by the personal time they spend with Him not necessarily by the church or the words spoken on salvation. Heck some dont even remember the last church service how are new converts going to remember every word of a salvation prayer spoken to them?

You gave the great commission out of Mathew but I believe the one out of Mark is a little more complete. That is also my point, churches today do not preach on the baptism of the Spirit and do not walk in the gifts of the spirit like the apostles did, so are they really being faithful to the full gospel? Are they really teaching training and equipping Christians to the Mission field or are they by the lack of knowledge and teaching leading them to the slaughter and failure at worst or a life that may not be all it can be in the Lord?

This is my point if we worry about every word spoken yet do not teach on all the gifts of the spirit aren't we really as the pharisees did straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel?

Religion only has the laws to make the preaching of the gospel relevant to people. While the gifts coupled with the words offer a complete view of the power of a christian. It tells people today just as it did in the time of Christ that you are not alone, you do have power over the enemy and there is much more. It shows the kingdom of God is indeed in each one of us and its not just about words or works but by the power of the spirit the casting out of demons, healing, miracles, tongues. The Holy Spirit that was working through Jesus is the same today as He was then. Many gifts one spirit working these through each one of us.

If more were taught these gifts and more churches walked in this anointing wouldn't the world be a different place? Would revival like Azuza street really be necessary since we would be walking and living the full gospel and having times with the Lord and not some far off God as many think now.

The gifts of the five fold ministry when in full operation make for a much different church than the ones we have today and make them relevant and powerful in the Lord. It gives man something to desire of the Lord and work together with Him to perfect a life. The fear of the Lord even means more when you start to have this relationship start to move in the gifts. If nothing changes in conversion and your desire is not to grow closer with the Lord then are you really saved?

This is not one church in fact 95 percent of churches do not move in the gifts that God has given them and walk in religion and laws. People are afraid of the gifts today because there is much more power attributed to satan than to God and His servants. Because the church doesn't do their job and teach the full gospel but only the portions that make it comfortable for them.

We are supposed to be lights to the world and today the church is destroying its own by not teaching them the full gospel and many walk around like the walking dead rather than the lights they are supposed to be. Many in the church are defeated and some worry about accuracy, that is a laugh. How many walk with addictions and things in their lives that can be gone if the church would direct them to the Lord and all that is available to them.

Meats original post was a child wondering if his dad made heaven, sad isn't it that the spirit of God worked more through that child than the father so much so the child had the idea of eternity. That is sad not only for the child but a statement on the church. Many dont even consider that this child could not have been worried unless the spirit of God had worked on this child's heart to see things that his father did not. That is the working of God that many dont even recognize. That is where the church has failed many. Many dont know that this is a witness that God put His laws in men's hearts also.

What does the Kingdom of heaven look like on this earth?

 Its in each one of us if we would have faith and believe and move in the gifts and callings that God put in each one of us the world would look so much different today and the church would be thriving. If we could even learn what the gifts and marks of God look like in a persons life we could change the world. That is the simplest thing the church could do and yet many dont understand Gods finger prints on peoples lives or situations. Make God relative and important to people today and the churches would overflow.

[3fan4life]

And, at the risk of offending some, frankly if there IS a God, and if it IS the Christian God, and if His judgement is purely based on if a person has used the brain they were given to deduct His non-existence and refused to take a knee, NOT on the good vs. evil they've done during their lives, even with knowledge that free will is an illusion, as our brains are biological computers programmed from the moment of conception, even with all that, He refuses admittance to heaven purely based on if you believe or not... Then I don't want to go there. If He's so petty that He cares not how one has lived their life but purely on if they've bowed down to his awesomeness... Then count me out. I'd rather go to "the other place."

While keeping in mind the verse referenced in my tagline:

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NKJV)

Hopefully, I can explain this in a way that makes sense.

People don't wind up in Hell simply because they "Refused to bow down to His Awesomeness".

People wind up in Hell because they refuse to accept the gift of salvation offered to them by God.

Most everyone is familiar with John 3:16;

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For many (including myself) this verse is the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

For some reason John 3:17-18 hasn't achieved the same notoriety.

This is unfortunate, because these verses explain why people wind up in Hell:

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The gift of salvation exists because Jesus came, lived a perfect, sinless life and allowed Himself to be crucified on The Cross as punishment for our sins.

Jesus, didn't do this "only" for Christians.

Jesus, did this for everyone.

Including those who will choose to deny Him.

(By them, I mean the kids, not the teachers...)

Religion is an extremely personal thing.

It stirs in us some of the deepest emotions possible for a human being to experience.

This is probably why so many wars have been fought and are still being fought in the name of religion.

Atheism is also a religion.

An Atheist may believe in nothing, but many do so as vehemently as the most devout believer of (insert religion here).

I think that the desire to believe in something is pre-programed into us.

And while every parent has the desire and the right to instill in their children, their own religious beliefs.

If your children are questioning the existence of God as a supreme being.

I would beseech you to allow them to draw their own conclusions.



Louie Giglio is a remarkable speaker with a strong interest in science and outer space.

He has a unique perspective on God and the Universe.

As a person that has also had a strong interest in both, I really like the way he explains things.

Here are some of his presentations:

Laminin (short version)
https://youtu.be/QSR8z_0uW5E

Laminin (full version)
https://youtu.be/atUGBua2AzE  

God is indescribable (short version)
https://youtu.be/aVsqCLyoU3o

God is indescribable (full version)
https://youtu.be/aEUYpx66s9M

 

[Serk]

If your children are questioning the existence of God as a supreme being.

I would beseech you to allow them to draw their own conclusions.

I go out of my way to do just that, explaining my position and why, and explaining other people have different beliefs and why. But I don't accept a public school teacher going around that and teaching them their religion without my approval either, especially not at 5-6 years old.

[3fan4life]

If your children are questioning the existence of God as a supreme being.

I would beseech you to allow them to draw their own conclusions.

I go out of my way to do just that, explaining my position and why, and explaining other people have different beliefs and why. But I don't accept a public school teacher going around that and teaching them their religion without my approval either, especially not at 5-6 years old.

I get that, I really do.

If a teacher were preaching Islam to my kids, I would be mad as hell.

From your perspective, I can see where a teacher preaching Christianity would be the same thing.

Teachers in public schools should not "push" their beliefs on children (I Just wish that public universities were required to follow the same rules).

Right or wrong, I guess that you could just write it off as the price that you pay to live in "The GREAT State of Texas".


And I applaud you for allowing your children to draw their own conclusions.

That takes a level of courage that most people do not possess.

[Robert]

I go out of my way to do just that, explaining my position and why, and explaining other people have different beliefs and why. But I don't accept a public school teacher going around that and teaching them their religion without my approval either, especially not at 5-6 years old.

Not to be preachy but that is the least of your worries about what they are taught in school lately. Did you hear that California is teaching kids sexual things for the gays and the parents cannot opt out their kids from the agenda.