Can Atheists go to Heaven ?

[The emperor has no clothes]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/heartsick-boy-asks-atheist-dad-193340202.html

I hope this doesn’t invoke acrimony. I just thought it was a very touching story of a young boy and his heartache.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

John 14-6

[JimmyG]

I honestly wish everyone would/could go to heaven.
 If there is a God, If Jesus was his son, born of a virgin, died and was resurrected, if the Bible is the word of God that inspired men wrote being directed by the will of God, and if we say we believe his word is truth and that God cannot lie, then the answer is a sad, no.  
Really sad part is that God's grace provided the way for all mankind, through faith and obedience in Jesus. The whole plan of salvation is easily understood, unfortunately, many refuse to simply trust and obey what he has revealed to us.    A very touching story indeed. How hard it would be to have to answer that child, after having lost his dad.

[Chrisj CMA]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/heartsick-boy-asks-atheist-dad-193340202.html

I hope this doesn’t invoke acrimony. I just thought it was a very touching story of a young boy and his heartache.

May be a touching story and the Pope got out of that one without tearing the heart out of that kid.  But doing good deeds never got anyone to heaven and never will.  

I was brought up Catholic but wasn't a Christian during my time in the catholic church.  A few Catholics are actually Christians but not all, their doctrine does not encourage the personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ that is needed for true salvation.  

No unbeliever can go to heaven, they wont go to hell as an unbeliever either.  When an atheist meets Christ at the end of life he will finally believe, but it will be too late.  That ex-atheist will enter hell as someone that knows the truth.

[Chrisj CMA]

John 14-6

 

[Robert]

Yup anyone,

The praying Medic

About Me
https://prayingmedic.com/about/

If you’re wondering who I am, you’ve come to the right place:

My life prior to the year 2000 was pretty ordinary. I was an atheist, doing the best I could to keep things moving in a positive direction. One day, I had an encounter with Jesus in the bunk room of a fire station that forever changed my life.

In 2008, God appeared to me in a dream and said He would heal my patients if I prayed for them. I didn’t believe in healing at the time, but I reluctantly began praying. I had no idea what I was doing, but along the way, I stumbled upon some keys to operating in healing and miracles. In 2009, I began blogging about the people I prayed with who were being healed.

I don’t just write about healing, but dreams, deliverance, seeing in the spirit, hearing God’s voice, spiritual travel, economics, politics, and church leadership.
(In case you’re wondering – I write anonymously to protect the privacy of my patients.)


As for the Pope's answer to the boy it has already been answered. John 14-6, and quite honestly he could have accepted Jesus with his last breath and still made it into the kingdom.


What I find amazing is that God put this idea of eternity on the boys heart. That is not from man but from God since the things of God are foolish to man. Kids are so much easier to see and accept the spirit since they don't have all the ideas of grown ups.

[Wizzard]

John 14-6

 

[Willow]

The Pope was incorrect.  As stated by Jeff, it's not about how many good things versus how many bad things we do despite what the culture seems to believe.

Joe is right on.

The Pope's out was not to say that he thinks the atheist went to Heaven because he did good.  His correct answer would be that God knows, God decides.  In the time before his mortality only God knows whether the man turned from his atheism.  The thief on the cross lived an evil life but in his final moments he chose to believe.

[Gryphon Rider]

No one who dies as an unbeliever will enter heaven.  God is righteous, merciful, loving, and just, but when angels worship Him, the attribute they proclaim most is His holiness.  His holiness will not permit a sinner who has not been atoned for to enter His eternal presence.

“A boy that inherited the strength of his father also had the courage to cry in front of all of us,” the pope said. “If this man was able to create children like this, it’s true that he is a good man.”

“That man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer. But he had his children baptized. He had a good heart,” Francis added.

He asked the young girls and boys in the audience if they thought God would abandon a father like Emanuele’s, who was a good man.

“God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.”

Here is proof that the pope holds his own opinion in higher regard than he does Scripture, as the only truth contained in all that he is quoted here as saying, is “that man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer.” Everything else he says contradicts God's Word.

[The emperor has no clothes]

No one who dies as an unbeliever will enter heaven.  God is righteous, merciful, loving, and just, but when angels worship Him, the attribute they proclaim most is His holiness.  His holiness will not permit a sinner who has not been atoned for to enter His eternal presence.

“A boy that inherited the strength of his father also had the courage to cry in front of all of us,” the pope said. “If this man was able to create children like this, it’s true that he is a good man.”

“That man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer. But he had his children baptized. He had a good heart,” Francis added.

He asked the young girls and boys in the audience if they thought God would abandon a father like Emanuele’s, who was a good man.

“God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.”

Here is proof that the pope holds his own opinion in higher regard than he does Scripture, as the only truth contained in all that he is quoted here as saying, is “that man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer.” Everything else he says contradicts God's Word.

Do you think the Pope said this to be kind to the boy ? Or do you think the Pope believes God is more merciful than what is written in scripture ?

[Serk]

I'm not touching this discussion with a 10 foot cattle prod but this is gonna annoy the snot outta me, can you edit the subject?

It's Atheist, not Athiest.

Thank you. 

[Chrisj CMA]

No one who dies as an unbeliever will enter heaven.  God is righteous, merciful, loving, and just, but when angels worship Him, the attribute they proclaim most is His holiness.  His holiness will not permit a sinner who has not been atoned for to enter His eternal presence.

“A boy that inherited the strength of his father also had the courage to cry in front of all of us,” the pope said. “If this man was able to create children like this, it’s true that he is a good man.”

“That man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer. But he had his children baptized. He had a good heart,” Francis added.

He asked the young girls and boys in the audience if they thought God would abandon a father like Emanuele’s, who was a good man.

“God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.”

Here is proof that the pope holds his own opinion in higher regard than he does Scripture, as the only truth contained in all that he is quoted here as saying, is “that man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer.” Everything else he says contradicts God's Word.

Do you think the Pope said this to be kind to the boy ? Or do you think the Pope believes God is more merciful than what is written in scripture ?

Catholics have always waffled on the going to hell thing.  They have special ways to get around what the Bible says.  They don't really want their parishioners reading on their own too much because you know only the priest can really understand all that and its his job to explain it to you. I think to give an answer to your question it was both of those things you stated, that's just what I think.

[Robert]

Eph 2:8  God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
Eph 2:9  Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
Eph 2:10  For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things He planned for us long ago.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Pe 2:1  But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.
2Pe 2:2  Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered.
2Pe 2:3  In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm not touching this discussion with a 10 foot cattle prod but this is gonna annoy the snot outta me, can you edit the subject?

It's Atheist, not Athiest.

Thank you. 

[Pete]

It is not for me to say. Someone above my pay grade will address the issue, I wish the good ones good luck.

As for the Ca....... church and the pope, I have an opinion and trust me no one wants to hear it.

[¿spoom]

Can a non-Harley go to Sturgis? Yes. Now it's bike-related AND something we can all agree on, I hope.

[Gryphon Rider]

No one who dies as an unbeliever will enter heaven.  God is righteous, merciful, loving, and just, but when angels worship Him, the attribute they proclaim most is His holiness.  His holiness will not permit a sinner who has not been atoned for to enter His eternal presence.

“A boy that inherited the strength of his father also had the courage to cry in front of all of us,” the pope said. “If this man was able to create children like this, it’s true that he is a good man.”

“That man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer. But he had his children baptized. He had a good heart,” Francis added.

He asked the young girls and boys in the audience if they thought God would abandon a father like Emanuele’s, who was a good man.

“God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.”

Here is proof that the pope holds his own opinion in higher regard than he does Scripture, as the only truth contained in all that he is quoted here as saying, is “that man did not have the [gift] of faith, wasn’t a believer.” Everything else he says contradicts God's Word.

Do you think the Pope said this to be kind to the boy ? Or do you think the Pope believes God is more merciful than what is written in scripture ?

I think it's possible the pope's motivation was to minimize the boy's pain.  I think the pope's beliefs are muddled by having to agree with all the unscriptural proclamations that all his predecessors have made.  All popes are infallible, after all.    The only way God could be more merciful than He declares of Himself in Scripture would be for Him to be less just and less holy than He is.  I have no idea how clearly the pope thinks about this, but based on his other statements, I have my doubts.

[Alpha Dog]

My research through anecdotal evidence does suggest that even an atheist can go to heaven.  Dr. Eban Alexander, a neurologist in Virginia, wrote a book called Proof of Heaven a few years ago that I read.  He was brain dead, that is no electrical activity for almost a week.  He was probably an agnostic, and yet he got to see many wondrous things that so many NDE subjects speak of.  He found what he described as  several layers of heaven, one of them a dark area he did not like but could project himself into the light where he met his sister he never new ( adoption ).  

Late March of 2003 while driving from Akron, OH to my home I  listened to Coast to Coast AM.  I forget the gentleman's name but he was a devote atheist.  That is a died in the whole no place for Christians type of person.  While vacationing in France he concocted a terrible  sickness and had an NDE.  He was immediately transported to a dark and foreboding place where there were demonic entities surrounding him making terrible noises and poking and grabbing at him.  He shouted out Jesus save me.  Instantly he was transported to the light and love that is so great humans really have no words for it.  But it was not his time.  Back in his own body the experience led him to become a minister in Cincinnati and last I heard a couple years or so ago he is still there.  

I have also heard of this type of experience happening to a few other people.

Just maybe upon your passing you can accept Christ at that point.  I think the Pope was correct.

[Chrisj CMA]

My research through anecdotal evidence does suggest that even an atheist can go to heaven.  Dr. Eban Alexander, a neurologist in Virginia, wrote a book called Proof of Heaven a few years ago that I read.  He was brain dead, that is no electrical activity for almost a week.  He was probably an agnostic, and yet he got to see many wondrous things that so many NDE subjects speak of.  He found what he described as  several layers of heaven, one of them a dark area he did not like but could project himself into the light where he met his sister he never new ( adoption ).  

Late March of 2003 while driving from Akron, OH to my home I  listened to Coast to Coast AM.  I forget the gentleman's name but he was a devote atheist.  That is a died in the whole no place for Christians type of person.  While vacationing in France he concocted a terrible  sickness and had an NDE.  He was immediately transported to a dark and foreboding place where there were demonic entities surrounding him making terrible noises and poking and grabbing at him.  He shouted out Jesus save me.  Instantly he was transported to the light and love that is so great humans really have no words for it.  But it was not his time.  Back in his own body the experience led him to become a minister in Cincinnati and last I heard a couple years or so ago he is still there.  

I have also heard of this type of experience happening to a few other people.

Just maybe upon your passing you can accept Christ at that point.  I think the Pope was correct.

Alpha Dog.  The key to the accounts you brought up is what one truly believes. Not what one may even be known to say.  That person that in his altered state of conciousness called on the name of Jesus had to have some deep down belief or he would not have done it.

I believe that only God himself can judge man's heart and we mere mortals cannot and should not try to make that judgement on our own.

[98valk]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/heartsick-boy-asks-atheist-dad-193340202.html

I hope this doesn’t invoke acrimony. I just thought it was a very touching story of a young boy and his heartache.

May be a touching story and the Pope got out of that one without tearing the heart out of that kid.  But doing good deeds never got anyone to heaven and never will.  

I was brought up Catholic but wasn't a Christian during my time in the catholic church.  A few Catholics are actually Christians but not all, their doctrine does not encourage the personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ that is needed for true salvation.  

No unbeliever can go to heaven, they wont go to hell as an unbeliever either.  When an atheist meets Christ at the end of life he will finally believe, but it will be too late.  That ex-atheist will enter hell as someone that knows the truth.

 Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]

[Robert]

Its called the Roman Catholic church for a reason.

The Pope does not believe in national sovereignty.

The Pope does not believe a person can have a personal relationship with God.

The Vatican can therefore hear and absolve the congregants of their sins, not Jesus Christ.

Global Forum 2016
WHEN 2-3 December 2016 WHERE Rome and Vatican City
The 21st Century Challenge: Forging A New Social Compact

Time Inc. (time) will host the 2016 Fortune-Time Global Forum in Rome and at the Vatican, December 2 and 3, Chairman & CEO Joe Ripp announced.

The unprecedented gathering will convene select global Fortune 500 CEOs, members of the Time 100 and non-profit, academic, religious and labor leaders to address the need for a global economic system that both encourages growth and spreads its benefits more broadly. The two-day conference will culminate in an address by His Holiness Pope Francis.

http://fortune.com/video/2016/12/03/pope-francis-global-forum/

Rev 18 fulfilled:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cMa1xCQDQM

One statement by the Pope in these meetings was

Companies will support initiatives to produce digital identities for one fifth of the global citizens who lack one and therefore are shut out of financial systems? So that means we do have a digital identity and is it us or our digital idenity that is represented by a SS number. It also means that 4/5 of the world already have a digital identity and without this identity you cannot buy or sell.

This week, in a resounding rebuke to Trump, Cupich described the President’s executive order banning travel from seven Muslim-majority nations as “a dark moment in U.S. history.” The Catholic Church, despite retaining some of the trappings, costumes, and mental habits of the past thousand years, has left its war with Islam behind.

This is how the Pope greeted the faithful at the end of the General Audience in Rome: "I ask you to pray for the peace in the Middle East: in Syria, in Iraq, in Egypt, in Lebanon and in the Holy Land, where the Prince of Peace is born".

A few days ago Asia News, one of the most important Catholic Church foreign news media outlets, ran an article titled "The Costs of the Israeli Occupation and the Judaization of Jerusalem".

Various reasons were given to explain the Catholic Church's refusal to recognize Israel for decades after the war. Among these were that Israel did not yet have "recognized borders," while the Vatican maintains diplomatic ties with other countries without "recognized borders." Democratic countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria.

VATICAN CITY — As politicians around the world including President Trump take an increasingly hard line on immigration, a powerful force is rallying to the side of migrants: the Roman Catholic Church led by Pope Francis.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/how-pope-francis-is-leading-the-catholic-church-against-anti-migrant-populism/2017/04/10/d3ca5832-1966-11e7-8598-9a99da559f9e_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.67e3b66f91ef


For those who like research and finding things out, a question.

Why does the Vatican own and operate one of the largest telescopes in the world looking for infrared signatures built on holy Indian land taken from them and what is that telescopes name?

[¿spoom]

HELL EXPLAINED BY A CHEMISTRY STUDENT

The following is an actual question given on a University of Arizona chemistry mid term, and an actual answer turned in by a student.
The answer by one student was so 'profound' that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well : Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving, which is unlikely... I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave.
Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.
Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, 'It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct ... leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting 'Oh my God.'

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED AN A+.

[Alpha Dog]

HELL EXPLAINED BY A CHEMISTRY STUDENT

The following is an actual question given on a University of Arizona chemistry mid term, and an actual answer turned in by a student.
The answer by one student was so 'profound' that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well : Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving, which is unlikely... I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave.
Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.
Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, 'It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct ... leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting 'Oh my God.'

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED AN A+.

One of the truly great answers ever.  And if my ex Jewish wife is correct it would fall in life with the Jewish belief that there is no hell.  Oss can correct me if she was wrong.

[Chrisj CMA]

HELL EXPLAINED BY A CHEMISTRY STUDENT

The following is an actual question given on a University of Arizona chemistry mid term, and an actual answer turned in by a student.
The answer by one student was so 'profound' that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well : Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving, which is unlikely... I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave.
Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.
Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, 'It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct ... leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting 'Oh my God.'

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED AN A+.

One of the truly great answers ever.  And if my ex Jewish wife is correct it would fall in life with the Jewish belief that there is no hell.  Oss can correct me if she was wrong.

I took that essay answer as a pretty funny joke...no sound theology there at all...lol

[Robert]

Gehenna is a destination of the wicked, more neutral Sheol also is a place of darkness to where all the dead go

[3fan4life]

One of my favorite Atheist jokes:

The atheist and the Loch Ness Monster

An atheist was spending a quiet day fishing when suddenly
his boat was attacked by the Loch Ness Monster. In one easy
flip, the beast tossed him and his boat at least a hundred
feet into the air. It then opened it's mouth waiting below to
swallow them both.

As the man sailed head over heels and started to fall
towards the open jaws of the ferocious beast he cried out,
"Oh, my God! Help me!"

Suddenly, the scene froze in place and as the atheist hung
in midair a booming voice came out of the clouds and said, "I
thought you didn't believe in Me!"

"God, come on, give me a break!" the man pleaded, "Just
seconds ago I didn't believe in the Loch Ness Monster
either!"

Meathead, A question like the one that you have poised here should never invoke acrimony.

As long as it was asked in good faith.

And I truly believe that it was.

[John Schmidt]

As for myself, I was raised by well educated and very devout parents. I personally know where I stand re. my own salvation and my relationship with Him. Unlike many folks, I don't have a large Biblical reference library stashed away in my mind, if I want to dig deeper into a certain matter I'll start with a Concordance and go from there. But, many times over the years I've been faced with the "argument" of proof of the existence of Heaven and our Creator, and my answer is always the same.

I first suggest that if you are a believer in the most fundamental way as described in the Bible, and it turns out there is no God or Heaven, you have lost nothing.

However, if you have turned your back on Christ and the existence of Heaven, and it turns out you're wrong....then you've lost everything and according to my Bible will spend eternity with weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell.

The choice is an easy one, the pathway is not. Just keep in mind....you're not walking that pathway alone. When I look at my current situation, there is no possible way I could on my own power do what I now do for and with my wife. I'd fail miserably....and fast. Yet, those days when I get up after a seemingly short night's rest and feel exhausted from the start, suddenly it's 9:00pm and I made it through another day. The words to the old hymn "Guide Me Oh Thou Great Jehovah" have never been more meaningful to me than now. "I am weak but Thou art mighty......."

[The emperor has no clothes]

As for myself, I was raised by well educated and very devout parents. I personally know where I stand re. my own salvation and my relationship with Him. Unlike many folks, I don't have a large Biblical reference library stashed away in my mind, if I want to dig deeper into a certain matter I'll start with a Concordance and go from there. But, many times over the years I've been faced with the "argument" of proof of the existence of Heaven and our Creator, and my answer is always the same.

I first suggest that if you are a believer in the most fundamental way as described in the Bible, and it turns out there is no God or Heaven, you have lost nothing.

However, if you have turned your back on Christ and the existence of Heaven, and it turns out you're wrong....then you've lost everything and according to my Bible will spend eternity with weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell.

The choice is an easy one, the pathway is not. Just keep in mind....you're not walking that pathway alone. When I look at my current situation, there is no possible way I could on my own power do what I now do for and with my wife. I'd fail miserably....and fast. Yet, those days when I get up after a seemingly short night's rest and feel exhausted from the start, suddenly it's 9:00pm and I made it through another day. The words to the old hymn "Guide Me Oh Thou Great Jehovah" have never been more meaningful to me than now. "I am weak but Thou art mighty......."

John, I can not express the level of admiration I have of how you have handled your situation.  I am heartened that your faith has guided you in it. As to the question of Atheists getting in to Heaven, it's something that has always interested me greatly. Not because I am an atheist, but because I think it is telling of the Christian view of God in general. When I read the story of the young boy and the traumatic angst he was having over this dilemma, it had a deep impact on me. I know NONE of the answers and can't say that I have much belief other than I know there is a God.

[Oss]

that story about the kid getting an a+ is one of my favorites


Since ChrisJ Alphadog brought up my name I will chime in, you may wish to not read further.

Its no secret that I believe that religion is personal, that one can choose any religion, or none at all. I sincerely believe that the Lord wishes we take better care of each other and our world and that we would use our free choice wisely.

More people have died because of religion over the millenia than perhaps any disease or plague. Maybe religion IS the plague or not,
For sure there is much wickedness and hatred.  The idea that someone must die solely of their religion (Think Crusades or more recently the Holocaust) galls me. Stoning women, decapitations, amputations of children's parts done in name of God, Allah, Buddah, Mao  it is all a shitstorm that disgusts me as sure as reading about some scumbag killing a child.

Jews do not believe in trying to force another to become jewish. There is no evangelism !   In fact if you want to convert the process is arduous. My recollection  The bible has 613 commandments both negative and affirmative. But they are for jews, there are less than 10 for the rest of the world. The 10 commandments were given at Sinai to Moses and the former slaves messed it up even before he got down off the mountain.

Some Christians say these only    Abstain from    1.Pollutions of Idols    2.Fornication    3.Things strangled    4.Blood  

The VRCC is a mostly christian club, administered by christians in a mostly christian country. I accept what is and enjoy being in this vrcc family and love this country and what it stands for.

The USA does NOT stand for Christ, nor Allah, nor any deity but it without any doubt recognizes that we are the beneficiaries of divine providence and that WE THE PEOPLE can and must secure its safety and our freedoms.  If it helps us to pray, that is good. If not also good. The Church of England was never to be our master nor any other Church or Mosque, that is why those who maintain Sharia Law is above the Constitution piss me off.

Once, years ago, I said jokingly to ChrisJ in a PM that maybe Christ was just another dead jewish teacher who thought his mom never had sex and that his mom thought he could walk on water.

The humor was lost at the time, he and I got over it,  the bible  says  that Moses was the greatest prophet, there will be none after like unto Moses. So if you think I wont get to heaven that is ok, really, I still will be your friend

I like to think we shall ride Valkyries in heaven (no flat tires, bad alternators or u joints) and drink good beer and scotch, be with our loved ones and nobody shall ever be rained upon beyond the time that we sleep with our fathers after we draw our last breath.  See you in Virginia first though

Oss
  

[The emperor has no clothes]

that story about the kid getting an a+ is one of my favorites


Since ChrisJ brought up my name I will chime in, you may wish to not read further.

Its no secret that I believe that religion is personal, that one can choose any religion, or none at all. I sincerely believe that the Lord wishes we take better care of each other and our world and that we would use our free choice wisely.

More people have died because of religion over the millenia than perhaps any disease or plague. Maybe religion IS the plague or not,
For sure there is much wickedness and hatred.  The idea that someone must die solely of their religion (Think Crusades) galls me. Stoning women, decapitations, amputations of childrens parts done in name of God, Allah, Buddah, Mao  it is all a shitstorm that disgusts me as sure as reading about some scumbag killing a child.

Jews do not believe in trying to force another to become jewish. There is no evangelism !   In fact if you want to convert the process is arduous. My recollection  The bible has 613 commandments both negative and affirmative. But they are for jews, there are less than 10 for the rest of the world. The 10 commandments were given at Sinai to Moses and the former slaves messed it up even before he got down off the mountain.

Some Christians say these only    Abstain from    1.Pollutions of Idols    2.Fornication    3.Things strangled    4.Blood  

The VRCC is a mostly christian club, administered by christians in a mostly christian country. I accept what is and enjoy being in this vrcc family and love this country and what it stands for.

The USA does NOT stand for Christ, nor Allah, nor any deity but it without any doubt recognizes that we are the beneficiaries of divine providence and that WE THE PEOPLE can and must secure its safety and our freedoms.  If it helps us to pray, that is good. If not also good. The Church of England was never to be our master nor any other Church or Mosque, that is why those who maintain Sharia Law is above the Constitution piss me off.

Once, years ago, I said jokingly to ChrisJ in a PM that maybe Christ was just another dead jewish teacher who thought his mom never had sex and that his mom thought he could walk on water.

The humor was lost at the time, he and I got over it,  the bible  says  that Moses was the greatest prophet, there will be none after like unto Moses. So if you think I wont get to heaven that is ok, really, I still will be your friend

I like to think we shall ride Valkyries in heaven (no flat tires, bad alternators or u joints) and drink good beer and scotch, be with our loved ones and nobody shall ever be rained upon beyond the time that we sleep with our fathers after we draw our last breath.  See you in Virginia first though

Oss
  

[Jess Tolbirt]

to many long post to read but God said its better to be cold or hot rather to be luke warm...a true atheist can go to heaven.. but one that goes either way will not

[Alien]

that story about the kid getting an a+ is one of my favorites


Since ChrisJ brought up my name I will chime in, you may wish to not read further.

Its no secret that I believe that religion is personal, that one can choose any religion, or none at all. I sincerely believe that the Lord wishes we take better care of each other and our world and that we would use our free choice wisely.

More people have died because of religion over the millenia than perhaps any disease or plague. Maybe religion IS the plague or not,
For sure there is much wickedness and hatred.  The idea that someone must die solely of their religion (Think Crusades or more recently the Holocaust) galls me. Stoning women, decapitations, amputations of children's parts done in name of God, Allah, Buddah, Mao  it is all a shitstorm that disgusts me as sure as reading about some scumbag killing a child.

Jews do not believe in trying to force another to become jewish. There is no evangelism !   In fact if you want to convert the process is arduous. My recollection  The bible has 613 commandments both negative and affirmative. But they are for jews, there are less than 10 for the rest of the world. The 10 commandments were given at Sinai to Moses and the former slaves messed it up even before he got down off the mountain.

Some Christians say these only    Abstain from    1.Pollutions of Idols    2.Fornication    3.Things strangled    4.Blood  

The VRCC is a mostly christian club, administered by christians in a mostly christian country. I accept what is and enjoy being in this vrcc family and love this country and what it stands for.

The USA does NOT stand for Christ, nor Allah, nor any deity but it without any doubt recognizes that we are the beneficiaries of divine providence and that WE THE PEOPLE can and must secure its safety and our freedoms.  If it helps us to pray, that is good. If not also good. The Church of England was never to be our master nor any other Church or Mosque, that is why those who maintain Sharia Law is above the Constitution piss me off.

Once, years ago, I said jokingly to ChrisJ in a PM that maybe Christ was just another dead jewish teacher who thought his mom never had sex and that his mom thought he could walk on water.

The humor was lost at the time, he and I got over it,  the bible  says  that Moses was the greatest prophet, there will be none after like unto Moses. So if you think I wont get to heaven that is ok, really, I still will be your friend

I like to think we shall ride Valkyries in heaven (no flat tires, bad alternators or u joints) and drink good beer and scotch, be with our loved ones and nobody shall ever be rained upon beyond the time that we sleep with our fathers after we draw our last breath.  See you in Virginia first though

Oss
  

I agree 100% Oss.

Ride Safe,

Alien

[Robert]

Why do we go to church on Sunday?

If you are Jewish you are born Jewish in most cases, yet any other religion is really a choice.  Converts are not sought and conversion is really the way Naomi followed Ruth is the example for most conversions. But if you are Christian then you are grafted into the Jews, A conversion of sorts and a choice. So Christians are converted to Jews with a new covenant by choice not by heritage.

Its about bloodlines and promises and the faithfulness of God. The Jews could not follow the rules of God, so God sent the Jews a Messiah, a savior to nullify the divorce decree that God gave 2 tribes. The fact that the Messiah was rejected by the Jews, but accepted by some in the world was Gods plan. It was for this reason that Jesus came into the world, not really for the myriads of Christians but for His bride, to bring her back. Gods plan though was also for others far off that would hear the good news and accept the free offer of grace and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

God made the way for all to come without the harsh rules in the books Moses that Jews had to follow. Man could not follow them then how much less today would that be possible. God has been faithful to the Jews to this day even though they rejected Him time and time again. It shows the heart of God the Faithfullness of God and the Love God has for His children.

Like a loving father crying for his children.

Its this forgiveness, this persistence, this acceptance and power to be able to transcend time and history and man that allowed me to know in the beginning I could trust God for my life. He knew the end from the beginning something no other religious book does. He is with us today and there's nothing that is, is out of His view and He never broke a promise to His children.  





Mat 15:24  Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”
Mat 15:25  But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”
Mat 15:26  Jesus responded, “It isn’t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.”
Mat 15:27  She replied, “That’s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters’ table.”
Mat 15:28  “Dear woman,” Jesus said to her, “your faith is great. Your request is granted.” And her daughter was instantly healed.


Eph 2:8  God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 


Mat 22:14  “For many are called, but few are chosen.” 

[f6john]

When they arrive in heaven, they really won’t be atheist then will they?

[Chrisj CMA]

to many long post to read but God said its better to be cold or hot rather to be luke warm...a true atheist can go to heaven.. but one that goes either way will not

That's a wild interpretation there. A true atheist will truly spend eternity separated from God; truly!

As far as the hot and cold thing.  Here's an example:

The Apostle Paul used to go by the name Saul back when he was a Pharisee persecuting Christians. Definitely cold.  

After he met the Lord on the road to Dimascus he repented name became Paul and went on to be one of the most powerful followers of Christ in the new Testament Hot.  That's why God says he would rather you be cold or hot and not a wishy washy (warm) because he can change your direction (repenting is TURNING from sin) much easier than changing your speed.  Motivating a dud type person is kinda like pushing a chain.

Well there's my .02

[Willow]

I'm not touching this discussion with a 10 foot cattle prod but this is gonna annoy the snot outta me, can you edit the subject?

It's Atheist, not Athiest.

Thank you. 

I don't believe we could edit the subject as displayed on each reply without editing each post.  I can change the title of the first.

Sometimes the little things that annoy the snot out of us are the building blocks that make us better persons.  No one really wishes to be full of snot.

[Serk]

I'm not touching this discussion with a 10 foot cattle prod but this is gonna annoy the snot outta me, can you edit the subject?

It's Atheist, not Athiest.

Thank you. 

I don't believe we could edit the subject as displayed on each reply without editing each post.  I can change the title of the first.

Sometimes the little things that annoy the snot out of us are the building blocks that make us better persons.  No one really wishes to be full of snot.

Someone (I assumed Mr. Head) had previously edited the master subject to the correct spelling shortly after my plea was posted, and I thank him for that.

As I'm burning up all my willpower to NOT get into the actual subject of this post since discussing it generally just leads to angst and animosity between folks that are otherwise friends, the individual misspellings within the thread don't bother me, as I'm doing my best to only casually peruse the thread, and all the little annoyances tagged to each individual reply only serve as a swarm of reminders that I have no business reading too deeply into this thread, and a reminder to move on.

I do sincerely thank you for your concern as to the level of mucus present in my system. Being springtime here in The Republic, the level is indeed quite high, and very much in motion as it drips continuously from one's nasal passages.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm not touching this discussion with a 10 foot cattle prod but this is gonna annoy the snot outta me, can you edit the subject?

It's Atheist, not Athiest.

Thank you. 

I don't believe we could edit the subject as displayed on each reply without editing each post.  I can change the title of the first.

Sometimes the little things that annoy the snot out of us are the building blocks that make us better persons.  No one really wishes to be full of snot.

Someone (I assumed Mr. Head) had previously edited the master subject to the correct spelling shortly after my plea was posted, and I thank him for that.

As I'm burning up all my willpower to NOT get into the actual subject of this post since discussing it generally just leads to angst and animosity between folks that are otherwise friends, the individual misspellings within the thread don't bother me, as I'm doing my best to only casually peruse the thread, and all the little annoyances tagged to each individual reply only serve as a swarm of reminders that I have no business reading too deeply into this thread, and a reminder to move on.

I do sincerely thank you for your concern as to the level of mucus present in my system. Being springtime here in The Republic, the level is indeed quite high, and very much in motion as it drips continuously from one's nasal passages.

Don't let it get on your keyboard.  I did edit the title. I hate making spelling mistakes ( or any mistakes ). I completely understand your hesitance at joining the discussion. I am trying to stay out of political discussions myself. But, you do have a unique perspective on it and I think MOST would appreciate it.

[da prez]

  Kind of on the subject and off at the same time. I have my own beliefs. I do not normally get involved in religious conversations.
  If you are a violent ,hateful rapist, murderer, abuser all your life and on your last breath in the death chamber and ask for forgiveness for all your sins , you will be forgiven and sit with God . I do not believe it. There are many that dedicate their life to goodness . Why should criminals be granted the same rights , just for asking. If they believe in hell , why did they not do better in life. If you are afraid of hell , do not push the down button in the death elevator .
  Yes , said God , I forgive you , as we need someone to clean the toilets here.

                                          da prez

[Robert]

Yes if at the end of life we lived like hell and then come and accept the Lord we will be saved. But we will have never experienced the peace the joy the wonderful blessings of walking with the Lord in this life. The people who may have been saved through us will have found another way or maybe not. How rewarding to live a life walking with the Lord, many never take full advantage of all the blessings. We can be and do more than we think we can. 

Mat 20:1  "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like the landowner who went out early one morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
Mat 20:2  He agreed to pay the normal daily wage and sent them out to work.
Mat 20:3  "At nine o'clock in the morning he was passing through the marketplace and saw some people standing around doing nothing.
Mat 20:4  So he hired them, telling them he would pay them whatever was right at the end of the day.
Mat 20:5  So they went to work in the vineyard. At noon and again at three o'clock he did the same thing.
Mat 20:6  "At five o'clock that afternoon he was in town again and saw some more people standing around. He asked them, 'Why haven't you been working today?'
Mat 20:7  "They replied, 'Because no one hired us.' "The landowner told them, 'Then go out and join the others in my vineyard.'
Mat 20:8  "That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first.
Mat 20:9  When those hired at five o'clock were paid, each received a full day's wage.
Mat 20:10  When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day's wage.
Mat 20:11  When they received their pay, they protested to the owner,
Mat 20:12  'Those people worked only one hour, and yet you've paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.'
Mat 20:13  "He answered one of them, 'Friend, I haven't been unfair! Didn't you agree to work all day for the usual wage?
Mat 20:14  Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you.
Mat 20:15  Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?'
Mat 20:16  "So those who are last now will be first then, and those who are first will be last."