Dogs - Dangerous or Not

[Bigwolf]

This came up on another post and I wanted to weigh in but did not want to hijack that good post.

Dogs - Dangerous or Not

On the subject of dogs, I have a few observations.  Whatever the breed, be it a Pitbull, Sheppard, Lab, Terrier, or Chihuahua, the way it is treated will greatly affect the personality.  A dog that has been treated badly is not a safe dog to be around.  A dog that is always treated well is seldom a problem for people.  However, you will never shut down their instinct for establishing canine pecking order so do not expect them to always be meek around other dogs. 

It is up to the owner to ensure that his/her dog is never mistreated.  If the dog is outside by itself, even in a kennel, it is subject to mistreatment by passing children and maybe even adults.  I have known good dogs to be ruined by children that desperately needed a spanking.  I have witnessed the same caused by an adult that was overly afraid of dogs and maced the dog just because it was close by.  That adult happened to be wearing a uniform at the time - that dog would not allow anyone wearing a uniform to get near it ever after that.  If they tried, it would give clear warning that it intended to do damage.  Before that macing, a gentler more loving dog could not be found.

Just saying that the owner is ultimately responsible but sometimes the owner's failure may be just carelessness.  Not everyone has the good sense (and understanding) to be capable of caring for dogs or other animals for that matter.  We seem to be in a culture that thinks it is "cute" to own a puppy/dog (or some exotic animal) and forgets that to do so brings with it more responsibility than just feed and water.  Some go so far as to try to make their dogs aggressive.  That usually turns out poorly for the dog and other beings.

Bigwolf

[DirtyDan]

Dogs dangerous ?

Yes

Dan

[old2soon]

     When I lived in East Texas with my first wife and family a friend gave us a Male German Shepard-runt of the litter-my choice-and I gave it to the kids and told them-don't hurt it and don't kill it. Blitz and the kids literally grew up together. Wife and I helped but it was my dog and the kids dog. I believe Blitz came with an automatic protection feeling for the entire family-kids wife then me. Had folks tell me German Shepards should NEVER be with kids!  Yeah-Right. I was a proud owner of a 115 pound lap lizard!  BEST cursed dog i ever had!  I agree-wrong treatment will take a dog and make it mean.  I had about a 50 foot run-cable between two trees on a 15 foot lead back to the cable but Blitz did NOT spend all day there-hour or two at a time at most-more of an inside dog. RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

BW, I agree almost completely with the notion that it's (almost) never the dog's fault, it's the owner's fault.  And owner failure is mostly simple neglect (not active abuse).  Where did anyone get the idea it was OK to get a dog and stick it in the back yard with food, water and shelter.... and nothing else, forever?  Aside from purely feral animals, all dogs think they are part of the family and need to be treated this way (with the same reward and discipline we all need).  Even purely feral (domestic) animals can be brought back, with good treatment.  

But, just like humans, despite best efforts by everyone, some just turn out wrong.  Though I believe there are way more defective humans, than dogs.

I've always gotten along great with animals (except squirrels, who I don't want to get along with), including somewhat aggressive dogs, but you need to know a little about animal behavior to do so.

To me, it's always been the small, hyper, psycho, ankle biter dogs that present the most problems.  I got in a little trouble a few years ago saying this, but you could not give me a Chihuahua.  They may be OK with a good owner, but not with anyone else.  (I'd rather have a pet squirrel than a Chihuahua, and man I do not like squirrels at all)

Yeah, go ahead and pet me (make my day).


My mom always told me.... Jess there are two things you can never talk to people about (rationally), their kids and their dogs.   (Again, this is nearly always an owner problem)

[3fan4life]

BW, I agree almost completely with the notion that it's (almost) never the dog's fault, it's the owner's fault.  And owner failure is mostly simple neglect (not active abuse).  Where did anyone get the idea it was OK to get a dog and stick it in the back yard with food, water and shelter.... and nothing else, forever?  Aside from purely feral animals, all dogs think they are part of the family and need to be treated this way (with the same reward and discipline we all need).  Even purely feral (domestic) animals can be brought back, with good treatment.  

But, just like humans, despite best efforts by everyone, some just turn out wrong.  Though I believe there are way more defective humans, than dogs.

I've always gotten along great with animals (except squirrels, who I don't want to get along with), including somewhat aggressive dogs, but you need to know a little about animal behavior to do so.

To me, it's always been the small, hyper, psycho, ankle biter dogs that present the most problems.  I got in a little trouble a few years ago saying this, but you could not give me a Chihuahua.  They may be OK with a good owner, but not with anyone else.  (I'd rather have a pet squirrel than a Chihuahua, and man I do not like squirrels at all)

Yeah, go ahead and pet me (make my day).


My mom always told me.... Jess there are two things you can never talk to people about (rationally), their kids and their dogs.   (Again, this is nearly always an owner problem)

I completely agree, especially about the Chihuahuas.

The one thing that I do admire about Chihuahuas though is, they have no idea that they are small dogs.

     When I lived in East Texas with my first wife and family a friend gave us a Male German Shepard-runt of the litter-my choice-and I gave it to the kids and told them-don't hurt it and don't kill it. Blitz and the kids literally grew up together. Wife and I helped but it was my dog and the kids dog. I believe Blitz came with an automatic protection feeling for the entire family-kids wife then me. Had folks tell me German Shepards should NEVER be with kids!  Yeah-Right. I was a proud owner of a 115 pound lap lizard!  BEST cursed dog i ever had!  I agree-wrong treatment will take a dog and make it mean.  I had about a 50 foot run-cable between two trees on a 15 foot lead back to the cable but Blitz did NOT spend all day there-hour or two at a time at most-more of an inside dog. RIDE SAFE.

German Shepherds are great dogs with kids, as long as they were raised with them.

A German Shepherd is extremely protective of everyone in its "pack".

This makes them a great family dog, they are not always good with outsiders though.

[Hooter]

Bottom line, most dogs are only as good as their environment especially if its raised from a pup.  I don't care what breed it is.

[Rams]

This came up on another post and I wanted to weigh in but did not want to hijack that good post.

Dogs - Dangerous or Not

On the subject of dogs, I have a few observations.  Whatever the breed, be it a Pitbull, Sheppard, Lab, Terrier, or Chihuahua, the way it is treated will greatly affect the personality.  A dog that has been treated badly is not a safe dog to be around.  A dog that is always treated well is seldom a problem for people.  However, you will never shut down their instinct for establishing canine pecking order so do not expect them to always be meek around other dogs. 

It is up to the owner to ensure that his/her dog is never mistreated.  If the dog is outside by itself, even in a kennel, it is subject to mistreatment by passing children and maybe even adults.  I have known good dogs to be ruined by children that desperately needed a spanking.  I have witnessed the same caused by an adult that was overly afraid of dogs and maced the dog just because it was close by.  That adult happened to be wearing a uniform at the time - that dog would not allow anyone wearing a uniform to get near it ever after that.  If they tried, it would give clear warning that it intended to do damage.  Before that macing, a gentler more loving dog could not be found.

Just saying that the owner is ultimately responsible but sometimes the owner's failure may be just carelessness.  Not everyone has the good sense (and understanding) to be capable of caring for dogs or other animals for that matter.  We seem to be in a culture that thinks it is "cute" to own a puppy/dog (or some exotic animal) and forgets that to do so brings with it more responsibility than just feed and water.  Some go so far as to try to make their dogs aggressive.  That usually turns out poorly for the dog and other beings.

Bigwolf

I don't agree with Jerry whole heartedly but, I will say this, I'm lucky to have a dog where the biggest danger is, he might knock you down trying to get more lov'n.     He's a leaner.........
There are more aggressive breeds.   Bowser ain't one of them. 
Yes, I am totally responsible for Bowser and my wife makes sure I know that every time he makes a mess.   

Rams

[Willow]

I believe dogs of various breeds in various ways do have instincts regarding aggressive behavior.  I believe the behavior of their human partners can accentuate or diminish the influence of these instincts.  It's not so different than with human children, is it?

I don't believe any dog should be shot just for being but I believe strongly that any animal over fifty pounds that is displaying an intent to do harm to an innocent human being should be immediately eliminated.  

[Bigwolf]

I don't agree with Jerry whole heartedly but, I will say this, I'm lucky to have a dog where the biggest danger is, he might knock you down trying to get more lov'n.     He's a leaner.........
There are more aggressive breeds.   Bowser ain't one of them. 
Yes, I am totally responsible for Bowser and my wife makes sure I know that every time he makes a mess.   

Rams

Ron,
You know I love Bowser.  I have to agree.  If he hurts anyone, it is because he is trying to get closer and get some lovein and he does not realize his own weight and power.  He is, however, a large working breed of dog.  Although that breed tends to be gentle natured, it has been used for police work and guard duty for reasons beyond just it's size.  You are very caring and careful with his needs and safety.  I know you won't, but if you did drop your attention to his care long enough and someone abused him or even just maced him, I believe he would become almost uncontrollable around such strangers.

That was always my fear when I had dogs.  It seems a lot of people are very afraid of large dogs and will throw things at them or mace them just because they are afraid of their very presence.  I kept close watch whenever there was any chance of that with my Sheppards, Airdales, and Rottweilers and I did my best to avoid any such chance.

Bigwolf

[hubcapsc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91zWaQuIqXM

-Mike

[oldsmokey]

Just like kids for the most part.
You get what they are given.
Just look around, or watch the news.

[Gavin_Sons]

I don't agree with Jerry whole heartedly but, I will say this, I'm lucky to have a dog where the biggest danger is, he might knock you down trying to get more lov'n.     He's a leaner.........
There are more aggressive breeds.   Bowser ain't one of them. 
Yes, I am totally responsible for Bowser and my wife makes sure I know that every time he makes a mess.   

Rams

Ron,
You know I love Bowser.  I have to agree.  If he hurts anyone, it is because he is trying to get closer and get some lovein and he does not realize his own weight and power.  He is, however, a large working breed of dog.  Although that breed tends to be gentle natured, it has been used for police work and guard duty for reasons beyond just it's size.  You are very caring and careful with his needs and safety.  I know you won't, but if you did drop your attention to his care long enough and someone abused him or even just maced him, I believe he would become almost uncontrollable around such strangers.

That was always my fear when I had dogs.  It seems a lot of people are very afraid of large dogs and will throw things at them or mace them just because they are afraid of their very presence.  I kept close watch whenever there was any chance of that with my Sheppards, Airdales, and Rottweilers and I did my best to avoid any such chance.

Bigwolf

Airdales are awesome, but very high strung. We have put a deposit on yet another dog. We are getting a mini bernedoodle. Bernese mountain dog mixed with a miniature poodle. Don't ask how that breeding went down but somehow it did.

[ridingron]

I was talking to an Animal Control guy last week. He mentioned the most vicious dog breed was the Chihuahua.    The fortunate thing is they can't back up their attitude.    I was reading my HOA letter last week. We have a pair of vicious attack Chihuahuas on my street.

[Rams]

Jerry,
Most of what you have posted, I agree with.    My point though was that there are some breeds that have retained the aggressive behavior and can not be trusted regardless of how they are cared for.    At some point, any dog can turn and some breeds have a quantifiable history.

Not suggesting that it couldn't happen but, the English Mastiff breed is known as the "Gentle Giants".    Some breeds have very poor historical data proving they are not trust worthy.

Rams

[Bigwolf]

I did not mean to imply that some breeds are not harder to take proper care of than others.  Nor did I mean to imply that all breeds are equally likely to be overly aggressive.  There are definitely differences in the levels of that inclination in different breeds.  What I am saying is that I believe the major deciding factor to be the care and treatment of the dog.  While poor treatment is usually by the owner, it is sometimes not by the owner......but with the same end result.

When I had Rottweilers, I found obedience training while still a puppy really important.  I believe that training needs to be around/with other dogs and with other people present.  Without that early training around other dogs and people outside of their own "pack", the Rotts tended to be very stubborn and very protective of territory and pack making them tough to handle around other people.  They are much harder to train as adult dogs.

Bigwolf

[Bigwolf]

I personally have more distrust of small dogs than I do of large dogs.  Chihuahuas are at the top of my list for an overly aggressive and untrustworthy breed.  But in all due respect, I have in my lifetime met 2 Chihuahuas that were well behaved.  Just 2 out of hundreds or maybe even well over a thousand that I have encountered. 

I think some dog breeds just attract a certain breed of people.  In my opinion, Chihuahuas tend to attract people that probably should not have animals at all.  Pitbulls tend to attract a lot of owners that like them to be aggressive and they probably should not posses such an animal.  Though there are good owners of these breeds, the not so good and the bad owners outweigh the good with several breeds.

Bigwolf

[Gavin_Sons]

I personally have more distrust of small dogs than I do of large dogs.  Chihuahuas are at the top of my list for an overly aggressive and untrustworthy breed.  But in all due respect, I have in my lifetime met 2 Chihuahuas that were well behaved.  Just 2 out of hundreds or maybe even well over a thousand that I have encountered. 

I think some dog breeds just attract a certain breed of people.  In my opinion, Chihuahuas tend to attract people that probably should not have animals at all.  Pitbulls tend to attract a lot of owners that like them to be aggressive and they probably should not posses such an animal.  Though there are good owners of these breeds, the not so good and the bad owners outweigh the good with several breeds.

Bigwolf

Gigalulu has Grizwald, he seems to be an excellent pit. I like all dogs, I seem to get along with most very easily.  One of our neighbors has a cane coral that would love to eat me. I have told the owners of it is caught on my property it will be dead. It has tried to attack me twice while on a leash while I was talking with the owners. They now keep it locked up either in their house or in their back yard. My bloodhound acts tough behind our fence but outside of it he is a big chicken. He is even scared of the baby chicks at our local rural king. That is also where a pit bull tried to attack him. The owners said they have never seen him act like that before. 

[Jess from VA]

My very good friend had an Akita.  It was loved by a whole family and liked people and kids just fine too.  But it uncontrollably hated all other dogs.  Maybe Cesar Millan (the dog whisperer) could have fixed him, but nobody else could.  He was a very careful owner, but it got away one day and killed a blind lady's seeing eye dog down the street in about three minutes.  When the cops came, he just gave him up for destruction.  Then he got out his checkbook for a new seeing eye dog (which is more than a lot of people make in a year).


I had a neighbor in CA with one of these (Shar-Pei).  He never barked (ever), and was always quite calm, unless I trespassed over the imaginary property line of our adjoining yards.  I only did that once (lawn mowing).  He didn't bark or get visibly agitated at all.  He just started slowly walking toward me giving me the (very) evil eye.  I'd have felt safer around a black bear.  That neighbor did not need a fence (the dog never left the yard (no leash), and no one ever entered it).  I have no idea how that dog knew exactly where the property line was, but he did.  Thereafter, I mowed my lawn about two runs short of the line, the neighbor always mowed those two runs, and the dog never paid me any more attention.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who got the training.  

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I agree with about everything said here. I love dogs dearly although I'll probably never have another one. Since our girl Jade passed away a few years ago, the wife and I have decided against getting another dog. We like the freedom of not needing a pet sitter, and really, Jade is so missed to this day we really don't want to go through outliving another dog.

What I will add is that dogs, like humans will loose their minds if they are left on a chain or caged without good quality human contact. When I see a dog who is pacing at the end of a chain day in and day out and who then won't obey, won't stop jumping on people, won't come back when called I always think about how unlucky that dog was to wind up with such an owner.

I think coon dogs are the exception to that cage/chain rule. Most coon dogs live to hunt and really don't seem to care about much else. And if they aren't controlled will hunt in one way or another 24 hours a day. There are a lot of raccoon hunters around here, they will talk about their dogs for hours and will sometimes tie up 10's of thousands of dollars in a single dog without batting an eye. One nearby family had an old delivery truck and mules to follow their dogs with. The mules would step right up into the delivery truck and ride to the hunting spot. Then they would navigate the nighttime woods following the dogs without spooking and with few if any missteps.

I think the thing that makes pits dangerous is they have extreme, instinctual fighting skills. And while most are wonderful dogs when raised by good owners, if their fighting instinct is triggered they dive in with a single-mindedness and bite strength which is amazing and scary.

Our closest neighbor used to have a pit named Tank. He and Bear, our lab/shepard mix hated each other. This was a more rural area then and they each ran free when they weren't in the house. They would start off by laying in their own yards and staring at each other from 100 yards apart or so. Then slowly, over a period of weeks and months they'd get more angry and start to stand and look aggressive, slowly getting closer to the property lines and on and on until they worked themselves into a fight about once a year. Our dog would want to fight a few minutes and quit, but Tank would continue to fight until someone broke them up. Thankfully, we and the neighbor could tell when it was approaching and would keep a close eye on them. I have no doubt that without intervention, our dog, in spite of his larger size would have always wound up dead if we weren't there to intervene. In a lifetime of interactions with dogs I have never seen that kind of fight till death instinct in another type of dog and hope I never do. Breaking them up consisted of grabbing one of them around the chest and pushing the other one off with a foot. Once their contact was broken the pit's fight instinct seemed to be satisfied and it would be over except for the vet bills. Then, eventually, they would start posturing and the cycle would start over.

As my neighbor and I said on numerous occasions, if it was he and I fighting we'd get tired of getting our asses kicked over and over and we'd quit doing that crap eventually.  It was a lesson our dogs, in particular the pit didn't seem willing to learn. Concerning breaking them up, the only human that ever got slightly bit was me getting bit by my own dog. But it was my fault, I grabbed him from behind before he knew I was there. In spite of being in full fight mode the neighbors pit never tried to bite any of us when breaking them up or at any other time. I'm sure that's because, like our dog, he was well raised.

[bagelboy]

My wife and I have had two Dobermans, for over 30 years. Unfortunately when they pass away, we always get another set. We have never, not even once, had them ever attack anyone. Just like kids, it's how you raise them. They are a gentle, intelligent, family loving breed. I don't know pitbulls, but I'm sure it's the same. It's all how they're raised!

[Valkorado]

My wife and I have had two Dobermans, for over 30 years. Unfortunately when they pass away, we always get another set. We have never, not even once, had them ever attack anyone. Just like kids, it's how you raise them. They are a gentle, intelligent, family loving breed. I don't know pitbulls, but I'm sure it's the same. It's all how they're raised!

+1 on Dobies.  Great family dog.  Now, he would scare the be jeepers out of strangers at the front door but as soon as they were accepted by us, they were in like Flynn with him.  Lost him from that intestinal twist thing common to the breed.  RIP Baron Dante Von Adams, "Dante".

[Skinhead]

My wife and I have had two Dobermans, for over 30 years. Unfortunately when they pass away, we always get another set. We have never, not even once, had them ever attack anyone. Just like kids, it's how you raise them. They are a gentle, intelligent, family loving breed. I don't know pitbulls, but I'm sure it's the same. It's all how they're raised!

You sound like my sister and BIL.  They always had Dobs, usually 2 at a time, staggered in age, when the older dog passed, they got a pup to replace it.  that way the old dog helped with the training of the pup.'   Great dogs!  Gentle an loving.  Loved to chase balls and hang with their pack.

[northernvalk]

magnum PI made a lof of breeder happy.....