Losing power over 3500 rpms - 3 hrs out from InZane :(

[stude31]

Ok...

Looking for ideas and suggestions.  I will first give the history and symptoms then the things I have done to try and fix the problem.

Left Kansas, bike was loaded up with my and my wife and a buddy road his Interstate.  I was always putting much more fuel at the stops.. Didn't think much of it.  Made it to Chattanooga and the bike started to feel like I was riding at high altitudes.  Little power above 4k rpms.  Then yesterday made it through deals gap and then was heading to inzane.  Tom was behind me and he would mic up and say he is seeing a puff of black smoke out both exhausts.  When the bike would get under a load, say going up hill at 67mph the bike would stumble as if it was running out of fuel and then shortly after Tom would say black smoke.  We made it to a hotel yesterday afternoon.  

The bike has 90k miles on it, I have had it since 16k and I did desmog the bike around 60k miles, stock jets, carbs have been cleaned a few years back and redeye o-rings have been used.

1.  Checked air filter and is clean with little to no debris in filter.

2. I took the plugs out and all 6 were black carboned really bad.  I swapped with Tom's interstate and it ran the same as before.  I pulled of each plug wire to see if it changed the performance at idle and at 4k rpms, and it did change on each one.  

3. I put correctly gapped new plugs and swapped ICM and tank, still had same symptoms.

4. I pulled the carbs out and inspected bowls, slow and main jets and the brass housing the main jets screw into.  Looked great, no residue to be found.

5.  I sprayed down the carbs with carb and choke cleaner while I had everything out, which included needle and seats.

6. Tom put my tank and ECM on his bike and took it for a ride and his bike had no issues.

7. I checked the petcock and the diaphram along with filter in tank and all was like new.

I'm at a loss..  It seems like it is a global problem, meaning every plug was fouled and both exhausts are blowing black smoke at high rpms.  It IS NOT blue but it's black and you can smell the fuel.

Looking for any suggestions or if anyone else has experienced this problem or had similar symptoms.

Thanks and if anyone has a magic wand, please send it my way.  I need to borrow it.

Stude31

[Pete]

Restricted air flow?
Is the air feed horn on the air cleaner blocked?

Gotta  be something common to all six carbs.

[stude31]

If someone is at InZane could you show this to BigBF and ask him if this sounds like the Coolant Sensor.

[stude31]

Restricted air flow?
Is the air feed horn on the air cleaner blocked?

Gotta  be something common to all six carbs.

Pete are you talking about the top of the air box?  if so yes it is clear of debris.  I even rev'd it up to 4k rpm and squirted ether when it acted up and it falled on it's face.. hince it is already rich.

But everyone I have talked to has said that it is a common problem to all six carbs.  It's just weird.  I have worked on these things fro over 10 yrs and never seen these symptoms to stump me.

I appreciate your input, let me know if anything else pops in your head.

Mine is about fried 

[Pete]

Check the choke lever, make sure it is not on or mal-function letting gas flow.

[stude31]

Could it be abad coil? and pulling more juice to that bad coil?

[stude31]

Check the choke lever, make sure it is not on or mal-function letting gas flow.

I checked the choke rail and all 6 brass levers are closed.  Now I have not taken each one out to inspect... Should I do that, is that what you are thinking.

[Pete]

No, if they are closed, no gas should flow.

Have you tried running without the air cleaner?

[stude31]

Yes and no change.. even took the air box off.  I checked the drool tube and opened the tank while running on the highway to see if it had a plugged vent tube.  Nothing

[RWhitehouse]

I'm going to throw my guess in an issue with the ignition timing be off/late. As said, it's got to be a "global" factor to the entire engine. 6 carbs aren't going to all start leaking simultaneously and sounds like they've been vetted anyway.

Too-late spark/too little advance leads to a loss of power (spark isn't hitting until piston is already on the way down) which goes along with poor fuel economy. You'll also get incomplete combustion since everything is happening too late in the cycle, leading to a rich/whiffy exhaust and the sooty plugs.

Could the timing wheel have come loose or slipped? Trigger coil loose? I'd maybe pop your belt cover off and have a peek at the timing wheel and pickup to make sure nothing is loose or looks out.

[Pete]

Is the bike idle fine and running below 3500 fine>
Or is it down on power also at low RPM?

[stude31]

bike idles great, needle doesn't bounce and rpm goes up and comes back just fine..  If I run it up to 3k rpm it will come right back to 800 rpm.  If I run it up to 4500 and bring it down it will run at 400rpm or die.  Then if it dies and start it back up it will start and idle at 800rpm and be fine.


Strange.

[Valkpilot]

bike idles great, needle doesn't bounce and rpm goes up and comes back just fine..  If I run it up to 3k rpm it will come right back to 800 rpm.  If I run it up to 4500 and bring it down it will run at 400rpm or die.  Then if it dies and start it back up it will start and idle at 800rpm and be fine.


Strange.

I'm sticking with fuel delivery on this.  I fought the same fight in 2010 on our Iron Butt ride.

It could be wear at the center of the large vacuum diaphragm or it could be that the plastic plate that connects to the diaphragm is not letting the spring seat correctly.  Either of these will exhibit partial or intermittent good performance.


I recommend a petcock rebuild.  Alternately, try this: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,37577.0.html

[Leathel]

when the carbs were out did you check the float levels? they could be distorted and then not shut off the float valve fully, low revs and the fuel bowl gets to full?

are the slow jets screws set ok?

sounds like a rich issue

Once the plugs get fouled they will break down at higher revs in a rich mixed bike

My last bike had over fuelling issues and would do similar things, clean/replace the plugs and it would be good for a while

[Valkpilot]

bike idles great, needle doesn't bounce and rpm goes up and comes back just fine..  If I run it up to 3k rpm it will come right back to 800 rpm.  If I run it up to 4500 and bring it down it will run at 400rpm or die.  Then if it dies and start it back up it will start and idle at 800rpm and be fine.


Strange.

I'm sticking with fuel delivery on this.  I fought the same fight in 2010 on our Iron Butt ride.

It could be wear at the center of the large vacuum diaphragm or it could be that the plastic plate that connects to the diaphragm is not letting the spring seat correctly.  Either of these will exhibit partial or intermittent good performance.


I recommend a petcock rebuild.  Alternately, try this: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,37577.0.html

Here are pictures of my petcock diaphragm from the mentioned incident.  Even this worn, it would allow for intermittent running with periods of power loss, backfiring, black smoke, etc.  The rest of the time it would run normally.

[Gunslinger]

bike idles great, needle doesn't bounce and rpm goes up and comes back just fine..  If I run it up to 3k rpm it will come right back to 800 rpm.  If I run it up to 4500 and bring it down it will run at 400rpm or die.  Then if it dies and start it back up it will start and idle at 800rpm and be fine.


Strange.

I'm sticking with fuel delivery on this.  I fought the same fight in 2010 on our Iron Butt ride.

It could be wear at the center of the large vacuum diaphragm or it could be that the plastic plate that connects to the diaphragm is not letting the spring seat correctly.  Either of these will exhibit partial or intermittent good performance.


I recommend a petcock rebuild.  Alternately, try this: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,37577.0.html

They have swapped tanks (And ICM) from a running Interstate to the non-functioning bike.
The other bike actually ran better with Joe's tank and ECM.

Not saying that it can't be a fuel delivery issues, but it isn't the petcock. (And honestly, I don't know where else in the fuel delivery system would affect all 6 carbs)

[Pete]

I have run out of ideas and questions.
I will continue to think about it and post if I come up with anything.

[Roidfingers]

I'm dum. but could it be the alternator/ battery. I'm trying to learn here too.

[Lyle Laun]

If it's not the petcock (swapped with tank to IS) then what about a collapsed/plnched fuel line or the vacuum line to the petcock ?

Regards
Lyle...

[Valkpilot]

...vacuum line to the petcock ?

Good suggestion.  Check for splits, collapse, loose fit at either end.

[Rocketman]

...vacuum line to the petcock ?

Good suggestion.  Check for splits, collapse, loose fit at either end.

I was thinking something similar.  Even if it's not kinked/pinched with the tank off, it might get pinched when you put the tank back on.
Of course, that would lead to a lean condition rather than a rich condition, but I'm wondering if that isn't really your issue anyway.  If it's having trouble at high rpms, then something isn't able to flow fast enough to feed it at high rpm.  A low volumetric fuel flow makes the most sense, where it's able to feed at low rpm, but not able to keep up at high.
You said your buddy rode his bike with your tank.  Did you ride your bike with his tank?  If so, how did that go?

Mark

[signart]

He's getting more fuel than is being burned across all cylinders. Not enough air or vacuum leak could cause this.
But if I had to guess, it would be ignition related problem causing a weak spark, not burning the fuel. Using a known good plug, check spark. Should not be yellow, but hot blue spark.
You might try switching batteries, low voltage due to battery or alt failure as mentioned earlier.

[stude31]

Well... problem solved.  I hate to admit this but the whole time it was a plugged up k&n air filter. I swear it looked clean but when i removed the filter earlier and started the bike it ran like garbage because of the fouled plugs.  We swapped filters and Tom's bike started having similar issues as what mine was doing.  I cleaned the filter and let it dry. I took it for a ride and runs like a champ!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Joe
Stude31

[Rocketman]

Great to hear!  I'm glad it was a simple fix, even if it took a while to come to it.  Get back on the road and finish your trip.

Mark

[Leathel]

Well... problem solved.  I hate to admit this but the whole time it was a plugged up k&n air filter. I swear it looked clean but when i removed the filter earlier and started the bike it ran like garbage because of the fouled plugs.  We swapped filters and Tom's bike started having similar issues as what mine was doing.  I cleaned the filter and let it dry. I took it for a ride and runs like a champ!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Joe
Stude31

damn I should have known to mention that....Its only been a few weeks since a mate had a K&N fitted to his VT1100 and had similar issue due the the mechanic over oiling it .... (clogged from too much oil in his case)

Awesome you have it sorted so ride time again

[..]

Well... problem solved.  I hate to admit this but the whole time it was a plugged up k&n air filter. I swear it looked clean but when i removed the filter earlier and started the bike it ran like garbage because of the fouled plugs.  We swapped filters and Tom's bike started having similar issues as what mine was doing.  I cleaned the filter and let it dry. I took it for a ride and runs like a champ!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Joe
Stude31

Your posting this could help someone in the future.

[stude31]

I hope so Britman.

[Valkpilot]

Well... problem solved.  I hate to admit this but the whole time it was a plugged up k&n air filter. I swear it looked clean but when i removed the filter earlier and started the bike it ran like garbage because of the fouled plugs.  We swapped filters and Tom's bike started having similar issues as what mine was doing.  I cleaned the filter and let it dry. I took it for a ride and runs like a champ!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Joe
Stude31

Good news!  Glad it was something simple and glad I was wrong!

[stude31]

I hope so Britman.

[CoachDoc]

I don't post much, but I read these tech threads diligently on a regular basis just to increase my knowledge base. This thread was amazing. I read it from beginning to end and it was like a mystery novel. I was speculating on a cause along with everybody else, but I never expected an outcome so basic and fundamental. A great teaching moment for sure.

[cef2lion]

Glad it worked out but....Back in post 7 didn't Pete ask about the air filter? In post 8 Stude31 replied saying yes and no change? Maybe it just needed run longer to clean itself out.

[signart]

Glad it worked out but....Back in post 7 didn't Pete ask about the air filter? In post 8 Stude31 replied saying yes and no change? Maybe it just needed run longer to clean itself out.

I saw that too, but notice in the resolution post he relayed that he first vetted the air filter with the fouled plugs.

[cef2lion]

Signart, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't pick that up. Its been an interesting an informative thread to follow. Nice to see everyone pitch in trying to help him as he was on the road.

[F6Dave]

How many miles were on the filter?  I'm just curious, as you don't often hear about Valk air filters clogging up that badly.

[ridingron]

It was not clogged with dirt, dust or whatever. It is a K&N filter with too much oil on it creating a clogged effect. I'm not familiar enough with them to know how oil is applied and how to tell when enough is enough.

[Pete]

As lightly as possible oil the fabric and then set it in a warm place to drain.
I usually set it in the hot sun and let it drain for several hours.
Then use  paper towels to  clean the seals and screen and hard surfaces and install.

[stude31]

To help clear up some speculations.

1.  K&n filter had less than 10k miles on it.

2.  I know how to recharge the filter and there was a light coat of oil in it.

3.  The filter looked to be in great shape when taken out.

4.  When i first inspected the filter and tried running it without the filter it still had the fouled plugs in so looking back, it wouldn't have McAfee a difference due to the plugs.

5.  Being here at inzane and talking to several folks they too have had issues with the k&n filters and went back to the oem. Including Daniel Meyer.

I hope this helps.

Oh and to wrap it up.  I sprayed carb and come cleaner I  the reverse air flow sms even though it looked clean it was filthy.  Stock oem is going in today.

Stude31

[F6Dave]

To help clear up some speculations.

1.  K&n filter had less than 10k miles on it.

2.  I know how to recharge the filter and there was a light coat of oil in it.

3.  The filter looked to be in great shape when taken out.

4.  When i first inspected the filter and tried running it without the filter it still had the fouled plugs in so looking back, it wouldn't have McAfee a difference due to the plugs.

5.  Being here at inzane and talking to several folks they too have had issues with the k&n filters and went back to the oem. Including Daniel Meyer.

I hope this helps.

Oh and to wrap it up.  I sprayed carb and come cleaner I  the reverse air flow sms even though it looked clean it was filthy.  Stock oem is going in today.

Stude31

I was curious about the miles because while it isn't a huge issue on our Valkyries, air filter life is often discussed by Goldwing owners, and I have an F6B.  That's because they all have a similar filter and airbox design and size, but the GL1800 filter takes about 3 hours to change.  It's hidden under dozens of plastic panels and parts that have to be removed in a precise sequence.  As a result many Wing owners put off changing it until 30,000 miles.  Many even wait until 40 or 50,000.

The K&N has about 1/3 less pleats, which I suspect is part of the reason tests have shown them to clog up faster than traditional OEM paper/synthetic filters.  But 10,000 miles is way too short.

[Valkski]

HEY all , thanks for some good reading and education !!
  Rich K ( Valk Ski )

[Blackduck]

If you run the engine up without the air filter / top cover it will miss and run lousy from a couple of thousand rev's and up.
Cheers Steve