Hydrolock - 'thunk' then 'crack'

[Offdibb]

Spent the last month restoring my 98 Valk. (carb clean / pingel / tank liner etc)
On starting heard the dreaded hydrolock 'thunk' so immediately pulled plugs and siphoned out some fuel from CYL4.
All other cylinders were clear so plugs back in and thought I'd have another go. (I know, I know!)
Loud 'crack' - sounded like chucking a spanner at an anvil.
Cannot believe that in the time it took to put plugs back in that enough fuel had entered to cause a full and most likely damaging hydrolock.
Have removed starter looking for clues / broken teeth on starter/idle cogs but all seem complete?
Rear case seems ok from the limited view.
What are the usual suspects that break when hydrolock occurs.
Please be gentle - I'm gutted!

[John Schmidt]

Did you actually siphon the gas out of the cylinder or turn the motor over by hand to force it out? Just siphoning can leave a fair amount still in the cylinder. As for the noise, it's possible the one gear that has a shaft riding in a boss cast in the rear cover may have cracked/broken that boss. That requires engine removal to remove the rear cover. That usually is the last thing to break however, so you might want to take a closer look at all the gears involved, my guess is there is some damage. Keep us posted on your results....good or bad.

[Offdibb]

I siphoned out the gas rather than turn over motor by hand, as wasn't aware that this method would leave some in, dammit.
I'm waiting on some tools ordered to get the rear cover off when the engine is out of bike, and will check all gears (and boss) closely as you recommend.
And yes - will update on my progress as I go with pics.
Thanks for help, John.

[flash2002]

You say you did a carb clean did you forget to do a float check, very important to check the level and to make sure they move freelee.

[Offdibb]

Hey Flash,
Well, my float check was a few taps to see the bounce left in them! 
Hardly high-tech and I got severly bitten by my short-cuts.
The bike had sat for several years due to injury, and my eagerness to get out on it again was my downfall.
The carbs were gunked up and required cleaning, and plug #4 looked a little fouled so the signs were there for me to see. Sometimes you see what you want to see.

[Pete]

With the carbs off the bike, float bowls off, turn the carbs upside down and blow into the fuel hose.
If there is the slightest passage of air, reclean the float valves and seats and recheck and check the float heights.

ALWAYS.

Good luck on the repairs.

[gordonv]

Search is our friend.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,89996.0.html

Here is the pictures with the starter out. Most just lose a couple of teeth off the gears.

The job can be done in the bike, but is harder to do. Take the engine out, and it's easier. 6 of this, 1/2 doz of that. Both might take the same length of time to complete, but the engine remove has a lot more little jobs.

But while the engine is out, other things could be done, like a de-smog, and some will say cleaning/detailing.

[MnM Valk 97]

I finally got the motor out of my '97 Tourer last night - same thing; hydrolock on #4. It happened in less than a half hour while I ran into a store during a nice long ride far from home.
Carefully photographing every part as I remove it, noting wire and hose routing, etc. Following the Clymer manual, I should be able to get all back together with little head-scratching.
The parts I suspect I'll need (rear case and two gears, plus gaskets) are only about 1/4 of the cost of the incidentals for the project. I got a nice wide jack, a Harbor Freight wheel chock, and the clutch removal tools. Some corroded hardware, aged hoses, fuel filter, carb float needles, petcock kit, etc. Oh, and lots of chrome bits that I "might as well" replace since I'm in so deep. Ideally the rear case will be off tonight to find all the missing teeth, and be sure I don't need to order any more parts.
So far I haven't missed too many opportunities to ride, so I'm just plugging away at this project as I find the time. It's not hard, but there are a lot of steps involved. It was satisfying to see the engine finally out, because that means I'm almost to the halfway point.
Good luck!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/t5zEpNnR5SiTEkTd6

[Offdibb]

Thanks Pete,
Will make that part of my carb o/h procedure from now on.
Had a quick blow on fuel hose and all seemed snug but the float height check will no doubt reveal I am well past 'safe' limits.

[Offdibb]

Hi gordonv,
Yes - discovering a wealth of info on this site that I wished I had seen earlier!
Thanks for pic  - all my teeth seem intact compared to the obvious damage in image, so I will have to get the rear case off to investigate the sound further.
The price of tools just to remove rear case is approaching £300 already! (uk sterling)
But yes - I am viewing the work ahead as an opportunity to clean / inspect / renew anything else that I find along the way.

[Offdibb]

Hey MnM Valk 97,
Sorry to hear you're going through the same.
All my teeth visable thru 'starter hole' are still intact (compared to your image) and hope that I don't have too many nasty surprises when I get the rear cover off, but I'm expecting something has gone due to the loud metalic 'clang'.
Hope that you don't find anything else when you get yours off.
Yes - good call on lots of photos to jog memory for putting it all back together.
I am about to get a wide jack to aid engine removal, but will have to sneak that into the house as the wife's 'eyebrow raising' means that I am starting to push my luck 
It feels a close call at this stage to cut my loses and break down the bike for parts, but can't bear to part with her.
Good luck to you too.

[Pete]

Just dawned on me that I have a similar incident with a Briggs engined riding mower hydro lock several years ago. It hung and then gave a loud clang.

I figured  broken starter gear or broken flywheel.
I pulled it apart NEVER did find any broken parts.
Re-assembled it and it ran and started fine, still using it today, and no issues.

Only thing I could guess was the starter gear and flywheel skipped a  tooth.
In examining everything I could NEVER prove that, nothing broken and  no apparent scratches or gouges.

Hope yours works out as well as that one did.

[Ramie]

Did you  replace your float needle valves when you did the carbs?  If not I would do so while you have the engine out.  If they seat good you shouldn't have anything leaking past them.

[gordonv]

I got a nice wide jack, a Harbor Freight wheel chock, and the clutch removal tools. Some corroded hardware, aged hoses, fuel filter, carb float needles, petcock kit, etc. Oh,

I caught this. Are you talking about fuel filter or in tank screen? Most have had problems with a fuel filter added into the fuel line, unless done right.

Clymer manual, I should be able to get all back together with little head-scratching.

Valkyrie Norway for a PDF of the Honda Service manual.

http://valkyrienorway.com/download.html

[Offdibb]

Hey Pete,

Yes interesting that the 'clang' you described is a much more accurate description of noise than 'crack'

And a no-damage scenario would be a nice surprise 

But having seen how many idle/starter gears are eaten when hydrolocked I am assuming the worst and waiting for a nasty surprise further down when rear-case is off.

If no damage is found should I dig further? Do conrods ever bend on these?

I'll let you know what I find when tools arrive.

[Offdibb]

Hi Ramie,

No unfortunately I didn't replace float needle valves.

Carbs came out and were taken apart, cleaned and inspected, seats were smooth, float valves tips were not deformed, but their springs were a little soft.

But the problem I think was no float height check was done and floats and valves are probably way past service limits, so yes will be replaced. And also will replace uk jets with 38 slow and 100s whilst everything's out.

But problems were compounded by stupidity and eagerness to ride 

[Ricky-D]

Hi Ramie,

No unfortunately I didn't replace float needle valves.

Carbs came out and were taken apart, cleaned and inspected, seats were smooth, float valves tips were not deformed, but their springs were a little soft.

But the problem I think was no float height check was done and floats and valves are probably way past service limits, so yes will be replaced. And also will replace uk jets with 38 slow and 100s whilst everything's out.

But problems were compounded by stupidity and eagerness to ride 

No sense compounding and continuing on the same path. Consult the service manual for guidance on checking the float valve assemblies and, changing the jets is hardly ever recommended. Finally, there is no service life of the float valve assemblies, and the usual problem with them is the ethanol enriched fuel and the deposits it causes, from lack of attention when the bike is gonna sit for a spell.

***

[Pete]

Yes connecting rods can bend, but typically they do not with a starter driven hydro lock, the gears break.

If the engine will turn over without issues, do a compression check, if a rod is bent compression will be way down and/or you my hear a metallic contact sound. Or the engine may stop or not turn completely.

If you cannot use the starter for a compression test, you can still turn the engine over with the front crank bolt, by removing the inspection cover and listen for any metal to metal contact noise or any hard stop.

Be careful  because if something is broken in the engine engaging the starter may break something else.
I would do the manual turn carefully first.

[Offdibb]

Hi Ricky-D,

Bike is a UK import so jets are 35 & 78 as standard.

I have TBR 6x6 exhausts, regular air filter (and no foam left in the airbox lid) so was thinking of changing the jets to 38 and 100 which I think is the US standard jet size?

[Offdibb]

Hey Pete,

Good to hear con rods are usually spared, as I guess the gear teeth are the 'lower lying fruit' for the powerful starter motor.

I have turned engine over manually VERY carefully by crank bolt, listening and feeling for anything out of the ordinary but so far nothing to report.

But yes - I am aware any wrong move at this stage could add to the ever-growing bill.

But thanks for heads up 

[Leathel]

Hi Ricky-D,

Bike is a UK import so jets are 35 & 78 as standard.

I have TBR 6x6 exhausts, regular air filter (and no foam left in the airbox lid) so was thinking of changing the jets to 38 and 100 which I think is the US standard jet size?

I have the UK model and have installed 100 main jets, it runs pretty rich through the mid section even with the shim removed from under the main needle, The UK bike has a different needle part number so may be a little thinner than US? so I would be cautious going 38 slow jet as well.

I take it you have removed the extra foam from in the air cleaner?

Does yours also have the water running to blocks under the carbs ? (heaters for icey conditions)

[Offdibb]

Hey Leathel,

That's useful to hear - thanks for the info.

When removing airbox last month I found that the foam in the 'lid' had mostly perished and was easy to rub away as it fell apart easily.
This has obviously increased the amount of airflow into box, hence the earlier jet question which I will look into more.

And on top of engine block are two chrome pipes that I assume are coolant pipes feeding the blocks? Is this what you meant?

[Leathel]

my carbs had these water pipes (now removed and hot fuel looses power)







was to keep the engine running smooth is freezing conditions....... who rides on ice?

[Offdibb]

Oh right - no my carbs not fitted with those 'heater' pipes.

Never seen that before, but I did spot the pilot screws with philips/cross heads (same as mine) Means at least one less special tool I need 

[Leathel]

My floats had also distorted giving me flooding issues but fortunately the petcock worked ok so it didn't hydroloc

The best fix is new float valves but for me it was $$$ to import them and I found the K&L float valves were slightly longer by .5mm.... enough to stop the floats hitting the carb body fixing the issue at 1/10th the cost (yes I am cheap....I have Irish/Scothish/German/UK bloodlines)

https://youtu.be/IwWA9judgc4

https://youtu.be/Ou7ewonygOg

when the floats top out it stops the float valves sealing fully

Pingel is fine but dont leave the key on without running.....I dont use the kil switch for that reason, less chance of another hrdoloc

[Offdibb]

Thanks Leathel for those video links:

Your 'OEM float valve' video is very similar to my carbs action, and I suspect my floats are also knackered and topping out before a good seal is made by valves. I'll check out prices of k&l floats vs OEM as I know the floats are not cheap here in UK, and an interim fix might be necessary due to limited funds... (oh alright then - I'm a bit cheap too LOL)

And new free-flowing Pingel perhaps should have been a purchase further down the line once after I was sure my cards were in top operating condition, but will be turned off religously when stopping.

[Leathel]

new OEM float valves will likely not shift the float height..so will not help unless you fit new floats...unless they are showing wear on the seal end but mine looked mint.

I used these

https://www.partzilla.com/product/aftermarket/18ED-K-L-SUPPLY-18-8955

The will lift the float level by 1-1.5 mm as they are .5 mm longer on the collapsed length

a little dearer than I remembered but for me freight to New Zealand was less than 1/8 the cost of sending 6 floats as they fitted in an envelope....and six new valves were the same as one float