a new direction? opinions welcomed

[Oss]

call me old fashioned, but there is a difference between feelings and facts


I sometimes feel apprehensive and tense going down a curvy mountain road that I have not been on before  that is my subjective reaction

Now rationally the fact is that the traction is not markedly different on a curvy road or a straight road even in the rain

The fact is traction is there,  that is the empirical fact I have to get into my subconsious  I do that by practicing what Pelladino and MSF teach me;  do my braking before entering corner if I really think I need to or be sure my downshift was completed, enter corner wide, narrow in middle, leave wide, throttle thru turn, only slight feather of rear wheel if needed, no sudden braking

My feeling is valid even tho the fact indicates it is incorrect yet it is my subjective assessment that I have to deal with and I continue to work on it all the time

So it is with the debates we see over and over, well about everything and anything really.


Calling someone this or that name changes little but aggravates the other side

Trump did not create all of this mess,  
Obama did not create all of this mess
Both have strong opinions, one is no longer in charge

Our perceptions of both men create the divide that neither party is willing to acknowledge belongs to all of us just as all of us must work together to get past it

Perhaps if we could all acknowledge that we are at war, that we need to do a better job of cleaning up after ourselves and creating jobs and making it possible for people to live without threat from within then we can really make progress on division and protect the country from enemies without and within


Building the proper border wall should not be such a big divider thing. This country has a border that is being breached constantly. Whether we acknowledge it or not it is still the case.  Maybe we can start from the point of lets secure the border, then lets find a humane way to treat those who have come over before either sending them back home, jailing them, slapping a fine on them or pardoning them  I think those are the choices?


Apparently there are some entities and countries that make profit or money on our division, fighting them cant be easily done. It is up to us to tell them what we think and why they dont matter to us.

Lets identify the dividers and defeat them by failing to follow them and failing to give them voice and not giving them our money.

Oss out

Suggestions welcome as to how to neutralize dividers

[..]

The current bollocks about one having one's feeling hurt is namby, pamby nonsense and making of a country populated by wussies who are more interested in selfies to reassure their weak egos.

[f6john]

One would need to assess whether one was a divider themselves before embarking on a mission to identify and neutralize other dividers.

[J.Mencalice]

All you describe (except for the motorcycle stuff) has been going on in America since 1855 and it will not cease anytime soon in this lifetime and some more to follow.  Such is the curse of the USA until it is no more.  Weak minds and weak wills are what this country delivers to the greedy controllers as cannon fodder for their wars and bank accounts.

I reference Greece, Rome, France, Spain, England, the great empires of Asia, China, and eastern Asia.
Don't lose any sleep over it; you are smaller than you think.  I reference the Universe and Time.

[Oss]

JM  I know I was born from dust and will return there, as will all of us

As I stated, my subjective interpretations, make me a divider as all of us, but not intentionally so

We all bring our own backgrounds to everything we do, If you think that is the curse of USA ask yourself WHY?  Slavery was an issue before 1776 not just 1855

I do believe that this USA is a blessing to the world, we have saved millions by intervening in order to save lives and countries whether in Europe, Korea, whatever. WHile we could have intervened years earlier to save millions of jews what was done is done  I brook no umbrage against this country for that delay. We have been a beacon of democracy. That is good payment back.

Yes we have also done wrongly, by letting the CIA and corporations control the narrative and direction
around the world and therefore that is the gist of my question.  Not that some are self involved narcisstic pussies

How to change the direction without demeaning and dehumanizing the other side  It is not acceptable to me that we can not do that.  I am admittedly unable to know how, I know this,  I am however smart enough to ask and wonder why you think we are cursed.  

[..]

TV, and now more modern communication media. makes it increasingly easy for the malleable to be be persuaded to go in one direction.

If the masses willingly continue to get information from a few sources they will be led by the nose with ease.

[Pete]

No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

[Robert]

Hey OSS what about this? So he preaches conservation and green but takes a NYPD plane.

De Blasio Uses Counterterrorism Plane to Fly to and From Montreal During Vacation

New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio (D.) used a NYPD counterterrorism plane to travel between the city and Montreal, where he is taking a vacation.

The plane has sensors for detecting radioactive material from so-called dirty bombs and is not normally used to fly the mayor, the New York Post reports, but de Blasio’s office confirmed it flew him from Montreal to Westchester County Airport in New York on Thursday.

http://freebeacon.com/politics/de-blasio-uses-counterterrorism-plane-fly-montreal-vacation/

[The emperor has no clothes]

No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

[Wizzard]

No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

Who said that???  I did not read it that way

[The emperor has no clothes]

No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

Who said that???  I did not read it that way

Maybe I’m mistaken. That’s the way I understood what he wrote. I took it as 1) compromise is wrong. 2) 52% of the people don’t want to fix our problems. 3) The 52% is stupid.

[Oss]

Not all can be compromised.

However from my reading of history the idea behind the constitutional conventions was that we can and should be able to form a representative government for our Republic and ought to be capable of doing so ourselves and not be dependent upon some monarch or king.

What would Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton and Washington think of the way our two parties represent the american people

[..]

Not all can be compromised.

However from my reading of history the idea behind the constitutional conventions was that we can and should be able to form a representative government for our Republic and ought to be capable of doing so ourselves and not be dependent upon some monarch or king.

What would Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton and Washington think of the way our two parties represent the american people

The modern pols are representing themselves whilst constructing a "caring" facade.

Each side accuses the other of name calling whilst doing so themselves. Their supporters fall right in line and adopt the same behavior.

[Bigwolf]

Evan,
I hear you and I too would love to see and hear honest debate on the issues without the personal attacks.  Ah, but that requires people wise enough to realize that they themselves could be wrong or, at the very least, not have the best plan for moving forward.  It requires people that are interested in putting their personal differences aside long enough to achieve a common goal.

Can we do that?  I would like to think so.  But we will have to start by turning down the inflamitory rhetoric one person at a time.  We will have to shut off our own prejudices and instead focus on goals that are healthy for the nation.  Maybe if some of us set an example, it will catch on.

There are many people that are trying to agitate prejudices and keep Americans from focusing on the common good for this nation.  Those, we must find a way to ignore.

I am trying in my daily life to achieve this goal.

Bigwolf

[The emperor has no clothes]

Evan,
I hear you and I too would love to see and hear honest debate on the issues without the personal attacks.  Ah, but that requires people wise enough to realize that they themselves could be wrong or, at the very least, not have the best plan for moving forward.  It requires people that are interested in putting their personal differences aside long enough to achieve a common goal.

Can we do that?  I would like to think so.  But we will have to start by turning down the inflamitory rhetoric one person at a time.  We will have to shut off our own prejudices and instead focus on goals that are healthy for the nation.  Maybe if some of us set an example, it will catch on.

There are many people that are trying to agitate prejudices and keep Americans from focusing on the common good for this nation.  Those, we must find a way to ignore.

I am trying in my daily life to achieve this goal.

Bigwolf

This ! 

[carolinarider09]

I believe that there are external forces at work, purposefully dividing the country.  The notion of divide and conquer is alive and well with these forces.  There are names I could call, identify, but i have no proof.

But the long answer is that we all need to take a personal interest in what is happening.  We all need to hold ourselves responsible.  We all need to become informed.  We all need to take a stand.

For so long many of us have been told to "ignore" those that are divisive and sow the seeds of discord.  We have been told to do this because it was the right thing to do.  

How many times have you heard someone say "that car is red" and you can see darn well it is green but not held the person accountable?  How many times have you, us, we, stood by and watched an injustice take place but done nothing to stop it?

Maybe it was our parents that taught us to "speak softly".  It was not for fear of reprisal we were so taught, but we were told it was just good manners not to cause a scene.

We have, through our own inaction allowed our country to be run by a professional political group.  Holding only the highest offices in the land to limits of tenure.  While local, state, and congressional members make it their life long work.  

In a place were seniority means more than conscious, where seniority is the key to ruling, we simply look the other way since to replace our senior representative with some else would limit what we envision they can do for us.

And the later statement is probably more key to the issue.  Its what can they do for us not what they can do for our country that a lot of us seem to support.

But the question is "What can we/I do?"

1.  Educate yourself on the issues.  Don't believe what you read, do your best to verify it through multiple sources.

2.  Communicate with your peers, your friends, take a stand, have a reason for the stand and try not to be overly harsh in your criticism of others but take that stand.  Have the facts and continue to put the facts out there.  But take that stand whenever the occasion rises.

3.  Follow the advice of attributed to Edmund Burke  "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”   From my research I cannot be sure the Mr. Burke actually said these words but it has been attributed to him in several writings.  But evil will continue to foment strife in our land until we do something other than what we have been doing.

4.  It would be nice but not likely to have term limits in the Senate and House of Representatives.  I fear, however, that even with term limits the entrenched bureaucracy will continue to rule unless it to is acted upon.  

In summary, stand up for what you believe in, stand up and be counted and be aware that you may well be held accountable if you are wrong and know that you might be targeted for taking that stand.  But Stand Up, Speak Out.  

I apologize for the long winded post.  

[Bighead]

Well said.

[Pete]

No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

They were not explanations and the points were separate standalone sentences. There was no side taking or references in the points. And I reject you attempt to add them as that was never the intent.



Your comment was not helpful or correct.
Your conclusion is not correct, but that is ok

[Robert]

Goals, plans, purpose, what if this division and chaos is planned, planed for change. The US is the light of the world and we the people still hold the power. This fact that we hold the power is the reason we have this show and stirring of division to make those who want, what ever you want to call it, open boarders, new world order, one world government effective in their plans. For united we stand divided we fall. 

 Being uninformed, divided, fed wrong stories we tend to fragment. There is nothing that destroys the plans of these people more than a united, informed people. They are really scared right now since the plans in government have been thrown out and we see the FBI and the swamp against Congress in one of the greatest battles in history to remove corruption in government. We had George Soros saying everything is going wrong and this same thought is echoed by those who are of his same mind. We had people who in a daring move tried to corrupt the US election install their choice and it was not Russia or Trump and it was from those within the US.

What makes you think that we are not winning?

 If the laws that are on the books would be enforced these political and personal attacks would have to stop. Trump has started a revolution and we the people the ones that elected him and stand behind him have to understand that those in the swamp are not going to go away or give up easily. Even if we defeat them today and push back their agenda that has been done they will try again unless we stay vigilant and ready and united to say to our Congressmen and those in office do your job.

There will always be people that will do the wrong thing but there are also ones being paid to cause division and strife. Things may get worse before they get better but the agitators are not the majority. It may take a little time to remove the agitators and instigators and find the ones responsible for paying for the demonstrations. 

We need to have faith, and trust and know that the majority of people feel the same way we do and have confidence to speak our mind and not fall into political correctness which is another name for do nothing. Its also a name for fear,doubt,self questioning,non action, and any negative, hope destroying, action there is.

This is America, this is most people who live and work here all want order and to be able to come home to family and friends and while we dont agree on everything the basic vision is in all of us. How can we all go into a stadium and hear the national anthem and cheer and applaud when its done, because most know the principles of this country and it is ingrained on their hearts.


THE DEEP STATE - 50 Year Old Recording Describes Events Happening Now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X_xB1JJ_Es

Antifa in itself is facists
They engage in violent protest tactics, which has included property damage and physical violence. They tend to be anti-capitalist and they are predominantly far-left and militant left, which includes anarchists, communists and socialists. Their stated focus is on fighting far-right and white supremacist ideologies directly, rather than politically.
 
The first group described as "antifa" was Antifaschistische Aktion, formed in 1932 with the involvement of the Communist Party of Germany.

Purpose, plan, battle, we are winning, they are not going to let go willingly, especially when they were poised with Hillary to roll out their subversive plan, it was done finished, until one moment in history, that it was undone. 

[..]

No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

They were not explanations and the points were separate standalone sentences. There was no side taking or references in the points. And I reject you attempt to add them as that was never the intent.



Your comment was not helpful or correct.
Your conclusion is not correct, but that is ok

 

[Bighead]

Just goes to show how differently people see things.

[scooperhsd]

What would Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton and Washington think of the way our two parties represent the american people

They probably would be spinning in their graves right about now.

There's usually more than one way to solve a problem, the issue we have now is that NO ONE wants to compromise and work with the other side to create a solution that both sides can live with.

Disagreement is something I expect in lawmakers. But I also expect them to be adults and work with each other to pass essential legislation. What we have currently is a "my way or the highway"  mentality - almost a "scorched earth" policy .

[The emperor has no clothes]

I sure hope you take advantage of the voluntary VRCC sabbath tomorrow. 

[Robert]

I sure hope you take advantage of the voluntary VRCC sabbath tomorrow. 

 Since I didn't hear the staff impose this and only you I'm sure you will take your own suggestion on this moratorium.
 It will be a great way for me and others to take a break from the replies you would normally post even for a day. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

I sure hope you take advantage of the voluntary VRCC sabbath tomorrow. 

 Since I didn't hear the staff impose this and only you I'm sure you will take your own suggestion on this moratorium.
 It will be a great way for me and others to take a break from the replies you would normally post even for a day. 

I will be. No imposing, that's why it's called voluntary. 

[Bigwolf]

Robert,
While I can agree with much of your copied post from the Chief Master Sgt, I would never personally copy it or post it anywhere.  It makes several references such as “Jimmy Peanuts”, “liberals”, “brainwashed minions of psycophants”, “castrated pigs”, and “use diaper pins”.  This is the kind of rhetoric that invites resistance and rankor and destroys the importance and usefulness of the entire speech it is used in.  I refuse to spread rhetoric that is personally derogatory to anyone because I am certain that doing so is fatal to any understanding and progress that might otherwise have been made.

It is unfortunate that so many people these days have so little confidence in their own negotiating skills and feel it helpful, even necessary to belittle their opponent.

I believe this is exactly what the original poster was trying to point out as a huge part of the problem.

Bigwolf

[RainMaker]

- No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
- Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
- Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
- At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
- Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

They were not explanations and the points were separate standalone sentences. There was no side taking or references in the points. And I reject you attempt to add them as that was never the intent.



Your comment was not helpful or correct.
Your conclusion is not correct, but that is ok

Actual numbering or bullet points would have probably helped as I read it the same way as Meathead. *(see above)  And it is/they are your opinion(s) which is definitely your right to make known, as opinions are not right or wrong - they are just opinions.  But the same goes for Meathead.

[ridingron]

I understood the lines to be separate thoughts.

Not sure what a bullet point is but I was thinking an extra space line would have help separate them from one another.

[Oss]

Correct Bigwolf

[Pete]

- No agreement is made up of one side only and some will never agree.
- Comp-per-mise is a 4 letter word used to avoid a true solution.
- Logic escapes a significant percentage of the population.
- At least 52 percent do not want a solution, they want something else.
- Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.
 

And that explanation right there is the crux of the problem. The “other side” is stupid, our side is “righteous “  

They were not explanations and the points were separate standalone sentences. There was no side taking or references in the points. And I reject you attempt to add them as that was never the intent.



Your comment was not helpful or correct.
Your conclusion is not correct, but that is ok

Actual numbering or bullet points would have probably helped as I read it the same way as Meathead. *(see above)  And it is/they are your opinion(s) which is definitely your right to make known, as opinions are not right or wrong - they are just opinions.  But the same goes for Meathead.

At no point in either post was "opinions" even mentioned please do not try to add it. Opinions usually indicate "I", "we" or a personal connection, they were not there on purpose. If it had been in there some would take it as an invitation as some did.

Discuss the points, please as suggested in the original post.

[Robert]

Robert,
While I can agree with much of your copied post from the Chief Master Sgt, I would never personally copy it or post it anywhere.  It makes several references such as “Jimmy Peanuts”, “liberals”, “brainwashed minions of psycophants”, “castrated pigs”, and “use diaper pins”.  This is the kind of rhetoric that invites resistance and rankor and destroys the importance and usefulness of the entire speech it is used in.  I refuse to spread rhetoric that is personally derogatory to anyone because I am certain that doing so is fatal to any understanding and progress that might otherwise have been made.

It is unfortunate that so many people these days have so little confidence in their own negotiating skills and feel it helpful, even necessary to belittle their opponent.

I believe this is exactly what the original poster was trying to point out as a huge part of the problem.

Bigwolf

Thanks for pointing that out, Interesting also. I took it from a point of view of the rough life of the Master Sgt. I should have censored it with the changing of a few words. For that I am sorry.

Apart from the bad words truth is truth and needs to be made public and known. Once it is then the country can heal and go forward. We cannot gloss over facts and without acknowledgement of a wrong decision then there can be no agreement, Pretty words or no.

This is the same thing that was deleted with corrections made and it actually is more powerful, enjoy.

Because I am a "lifer" in the military, I've seen the impact of a president more than many of you can imagine.  I enlisted with LBJ and saw just what Democratic confusion was all about.  I went to Vietnam and saw how we were constantly and incessantly bombarded with micromanagement from Washington that got thousands of military people killed.  I sometimes wonder if I'll get to heaven, but if I go to hell, I'm sure I'll still be a few hundred floors above that one that sent many men to die and didnt appreciate their service or life, Robert McNamara , LBJ, John Kerry, Jane Fonda, and yes, even the "hero" John McCain.

After Johnson "abdicated" rather than being arrested, I lived through Nixon who was hawkish, but allowed the generals (and there WERE a few real generals back then versus now) run the show.  He was so out of touch that he never knew North Vietnam was about to surrender when the Paris Accord was presented.

Only God could help us after Gerald Ford was beaten by Jimmy Carter who'd been funded by Saudi money.  The military was turned into Section 8 and even the Whitehouse suffered the
austerity.

Then the light began to shine and Ronald Reagan
swept into the fray.  He not only loved the country and the military, they loved him back.  Esprit d'corps was off the scale during his presidency.  The Liberals were slowly turning into socialists, however, and about this time all the draft dodgers of the 1960's who'd been given amnesty by Carter were turning out
college graduates with degrees in socialism.

Bush 1 was an enigma from the CIA and though he never did much either way, he NEVER DID MUCH EITHER WAY.

Welcome to Bill Clinton.  Clinton spent most of his two terms wagging the dog and demeaning the office and his sexual escapades brought shame to the Office. He sent a bomber to blow up Qaddafi's tent and killing a goat or two, while allowing the UN to set up the infamous Black Hawk Down situation.  He made history by becoming only the second president to be impeached.

I actually felt sorry for Bush 2.  He was doomed to infamy from the start.  He thought most of America was still the rah rah patriots of WWII when they were simply socialists waiting to feed him to the sharks.

Then there came Obama the Candidate with questionable origin to assuage your PC brains and birth certificate, who'd gotten a free ride through college under a foreign student exemption, and whose college records and complete life history had been sealed.  (We know more about Thomas Jefferson's bastard children than we do about Obama, Michelle, OR their two kids).  From his inaugural address, he slandered America and within days had begun to encourage dissension of the races as well as slandering
police who "acted stupidly."  That was mild to the situations that would come in doubling the national debt from what had been built by ALL THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS COMBINED, feeding us bs about how Muslims built this country, and nationalizing American industries.

 Fueled by George Soros' money and using the Air Force fleet as his personal charters, he appointed malcontents and traitors into positions of authority.  He trashed the Constitution by installing "czars" (interesting he chose a title like that) to bypass Congressional authority.  By that time, Congress was completely corrupt on both sides of the aisle.  No one had guts to impeach him.

Mysteriously, the lone outspoken conservative Supreme Court Justice suddenly dies in his sleep at an Obama pal's hunting lodge and the Supreme Court is evenly split.  Finally, Congress shows some backbone and rejects Obama's nomination.  The Liberals aren't worried because the fix is in.  Soros has paid demonstrators to cause turmoil at all the Republican
gatherings, Obama concedes that illegal aliens should vote as they won't be prosecuted, and Soros-manufactured voting machines are caught switching votes in certain precincts.  Hillary has cheated her way to the nomination and her lies are completely ignored by the people who follow her.

But a shocking thing happened on the way to the forum.

Middle America had had enough and although the pollsters and the pipers tried to convince them not even to bother to vote, they were fed up with the denizens of the swamp.  It was time.  Florida was designated a "swing" state ignoring that all those old retirees living in St. Petersburg, and the fed up Cuban Americans of Miami weren't interested in their platform.  Ohio and Pennsylvania, where coal production was blacklisted and where Obama had ridiculed them for "clinging to their Bibles and their guns," lay awaiting this supposed "landslide" Hillary vote and creamed it.

The Socialist world of the Democratic Party disintegrated. An American who expressed unbridled love of country and respect for police, firemen, and military steamrolled across the heartland and the liberals realized their scheme was trashed.  A CONSTITUTIONALIST would be nominated to the Supreme Court and if Ginsburg who'd claimed to retire if Trump were elected would actually leave, the Supreme Court would have a massive majority of CONSTITUTION A LISTS for the next 40-50 years.

Now, the same party who'd ridiculed Trump on his comments about the election being rigged, started screaming that the election was rigged.  They even advocated having the election repeated.  They created mobs that burned and pillaged, stopped traffic, threatened murder, battery and rape of Trump supporters, and became the anarchists that the socialist dream thrives upon.  They run like for safe zones.
 
This is exactly what happens when political correctness takes over and participation trophies are awarded to everyone.  They can't conceive how in bondage they have become.  Donald Trump may NOT be the best person for the job, but he's such a welcome respite from the whispy people who've been running the swamp that it's refreshing to see.  At the very least, Donald Trump derailed the Socialist train and bought us precious time.  If he only does half of what he's promised, we'll still be legions ahead of where Obama has dragged us.  Already countries who held us in contempt are lining up to be found in the favor of America.

So for you liberal lurkers and you fence-sitters, you had your big hurrah and now your party is over.  For you staunch Republicans in office, don't gloat so much yourselves.  You've been put on notice by the American people that we're fed up with ALL OF YOU and if you don't start putting America first, you do so at your own peril.  You might want to buy a copy of George McGovern's autobiography and see how shocking and humbling it can be for a professional politician to have to try to find legitimate work once he falls from grace.

This election was pure, unadulterated AMERICAN.  Hillary got beaten and AMERICA WON THE ELECTION. You can claim he's not "your president" all you want, but unless you forfeit your American citizenship
YES HE
IS!!!!

[Bigwolf]

Robert,
I think that will be received much better.  Thank you for cleaning that up.
Don’t be hard on yourself.  No one is perfect and being willing to try to do better is a valuable asset.

Bigwolf

[Rams]

Yes, things have gotten very personal.   Insulting the other side normally falls on deaf ears or leads to a return barrage of defensive or reactionary comments that gets us no where.   I really do try to be civil or, just ignore the insultor.  The division seems to be a question of values.

i don't pretend to have an answer that will satisfy any Liberal, from my perspective, Liberal's values seem to resonate from a thought process where everything is free or provided by someone else.   Rarely do I see a Liberal that's willing to spend their own time, effort or money on a cause they think has "value".   Those responsibilities seem to always fall to those who are already pulling their own weight plus some.  That is unless one wants to call demonstrating, raising hell, rioting or electing politicians to pass legislation making for more "free" stuff that someone else has to pay for a cause to be a contribution.  Perspective, it's all about perspective....

Conservatives (on their other hand) believe everyone has a right to make their own way, are allowed to make their own decisions and, be responsible for the consequences of those decisions.    
Not all decisions will be for the better, some of us make bad calls in life.   Liberal's seem to think everyone is equal, they (we) are not.  But they (we) all have an equal opportunity to make our own way or make a mess.

That is putting it as politely as I know how.   Values, I have mine and, they will not be compromised.

Rams

[The emperor has no clothes]

Yes, things have gotten very personal.   Insulting the other side normally falls on deaf ears or leads to a return barrage of defensive or reactionary comments that gets us no where.   I really do try to be civil or, just ignore the insultor.  The division seems to be a question of values.

i don't pretend to have an answer that will satisfy any Liberal, from my perspective, Liberal's values seem to resonate from a thought process where everything is free or provided by someone else.   Rarely do I see a Liberal that's willing to spend their own time, effort or money on a cause they think has "value".   Those responsibilities seem to always fall to those who are already pulling their own weight plus some.  That is unless one wants to call demonstrating, raising hell, rioting or electing politicians to pass legislation making for more "free" stuff that someone else has to pay for a cause to be a contribution.  Perspective, it's all about perspective....

Conservatives (on their other hand) believe everyone has a right to make their own way, are allowed to make their own decisions and, be responsible for the consequences of those decisions.    
Not all decisions will be for the better, some of us make bad calls in life.   Liberal's seem to think everyone is equal, they (we) are not.  But they (we) all have an equal opportunity to make our own way or make a mess.

That is putting it as politely as I know how.   Values, I have mine and, they will not be compromised.

Rams

We all have values. We are not all simply "Conservative" or "Liberal". Almost all of us are comprised of many combinations of both. To generalize liberals as not willing to put up their time, effort, money for what they think is right is no better than generalizing that conservatives only care about themselves and are heartless to people less fortunate . Both scenarios are grossly over stated. I don't think liberals are looking for you to have the answers that will satisfy them, anymore than conservatives are looking for answers from a liberal. What I think we should be doing is look at what has worked for us in the past. There have been plenty of times where we have put the good of the country ahead of of our self interests. There is no reason we can not get there again. Compromise is not a dirty word. Yes, it would be nice to get everything we want all the time. I doubt that is good for the country though.

[Rams]

The problem is, Conservatives and Liberals want two totally different countries.
We both know that.  A socialized America will fail, socialism has repeatedly failed.

[The emperor has no clothes]

The problem is, Conservatives and Liberals want two totally different countries.
We both know that.  A socialized America will fail, socialism has repeatedly failed.

Conservatives also desire socialism. They just don't call it that.

[Pete]

The problem is, Conservatives and Liberals want two totally different countries.
We both know that.  A socialized America will fail, socialism has repeatedly failed.

Conservatives also desire socialism. They just don't call it that.

NO.

[Rams]

The problem is, Conservatives and Liberals want two totally different countries.
We both know that.  A socialized America will fail, socialism has repeatedly failed.

Conservatives also desire socialism. They just don't call it that.

Therein lies much of the problem, apparently Liberals don't understand what it means to be Conservative.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

The problem is, Conservatives and Liberals want two totally different countries.
We both know that.  A socialized America will fail, socialism has repeatedly failed.

Conservatives also desire socialism. They just don't call it that.

Therein lies much of the problem, apparently Liberals don't understand what it means to be Conservative.   

Or maybe conservatives don't understand socialist programs. 

[3fan4life]

The problem is, Conservatives and Liberals want two totally different countries.
We both know that.  A socialized America will fail, socialism has repeatedly failed.

Conservatives also desire socialism. They just don't call it that.

As someone who considers themself a conservative I must disagree.

Personally, (and I believe that many other conservatives feel the same) I don't have a problem with social programs that provide someone with a hand up.

I do take issue with social programs that provide a constant hand out.

It's the old adage; Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

I'm not opposed to giving a man a fish if he is starving, but if you have the ability to teach him to fish as well and you don't.

You have done him a great injustice.


As for modern day politics, I feel the same as Oss.

I didn't leave the Democratic Party, it left me.