The Roads are White! ......... With Salt!

[Bigwolf]

OK, some have forecast snow for tonight and tomorrow, some have not. The road crews have been pouring salt slurry on the roads around here all day today.  Now the roads are white.

I understand that many people have trouble driving on slick roads and need such things as this done but I don’t like it!  Glad that I got back home yesterday before they started laying that crud down early this morning.

[cookiedough]

what really ticks me off is the LARGE chunks of salt that when either following a vehicle or even a vehicle coming at you on the hwy. kicks up those large chunks and chips my windshield.  Happens nearly every single year here in WI  and NO, I do not follow that closely either most of the time.   

they do put that salt chunks on might overloaded if you ask me.  Put it on AFTER using the plow removing the snow and ONLY ONCE.

[old2soon]

        They pretreated here at my Brothers place last week.  And I O H O they used too cursed much salt. Ross had a day last week he might could have rode cept fer the salt!  Had some rain and what was on the roads was now salt water.  I'm headin back to Missouri next week. I'll see if there is any brine residue on the roads. If no brine-good-cuz I wanna ride next week!  RIDE SAFE.

[f6john]

Roads here are white too, with snow!!!!

[Rams]

Roads here are white too, with snow!!!!

Let's try to keep your snow at your place.      Don't be thinking we all enjoy the same things you do.   

Rams 

[f6john]

Didn’t last, gone this morning, or migrated to Frankfort. Can’t stop immigration you know!

[Rams]

Didn’t last, gone this morning, or migrated to Frankfort. Can’t stop immigration you know!

Obviously, it's time to build a Wall.   

You knew that was coming.   

Rams 

[Bigwolf]

No snow here!  Not even a stray flake of snow!  Temp is currently 49 and not expected to dip below freezing till Monday night. .......... but the roads are white now.  I could go for a nice ride.....but then I would have that salt slurry crap all up in my bike.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

OK, some have forecast snow for tonight and tomorrow, some have not. The road crews have been pouring salt slurry on the roads around here all day today.  Now the roads are white.

I understand that many people have trouble driving on slick roads and need such things as this done but I don’t like it!  Glad that I got back home yesterday before they started laying that crud down early this morning.

Is it common to put it down before a snowfall ? Seems counterproductive and wasteful.

[Jess from VA]

They were spraying our roads with goop too yesterday.  It's not white, but clear.... and goopy. (and highly corrosive to any vehicle)

The snow doesn't start till later today.  It still works, as long as it doesn't rain before the snow.

I'm hoping for light and fluffy and not wet.  It's a lot easier blowing it off with a backpack Stihl blower, than the Toro snow thrower.  Unless it's wet; in which case neither works very well.

When your County has a 3 billion dollar annual budget, they've got money to burn.  They contract snow removal to hundreds of private guys with their own trucks (as well as a big DOT fleet of trucks and plows).

I've watched these private guys spend hours plowing the same snow in my neighborhood over and over half the night; they probably get paid by the hour.

They generally are not satisfied, until they've put a 4-5 foot pile across your driveway.  And by the next morning, it's solid ice (and dynamite is hard to come by).

And no matter what you spent on your snow machine, that ice wall can only be moved with a freeking shovel.    (Although you can always take your chances and try to blast through it with your car or truck, but that can be hard on your exhaust system.)

One late night some years ago, I got out there and shoveled all that ice back out in the road, then he'd come by and plow it over my driveway, then I shoveled it back out in the road.  It was like the Hatfields and McCoys.

Crap, I just looked out the window and it's starting to fall. 

[mrtlc]

You know if you throw that snow to the right of your driveway, the plow driver can't throw it back into your drive      

[f6john]

OK, some have forecast snow for tonight and tomorrow, some have not. The road crews have been pouring salt slurry on the roads around here all day today.  Now the roads are white.

I understand that many people have trouble driving on slick roads and need such things as this done but I don’t like it!  Glad that I got back home yesterday before they started laying that crud down early this morning.

Is it common to put it down before a snowfall ? Seems counterproductive and wasteful.

It is the way they do it. It’s better to be down before the snow hits so accurate forecasting is the key to whether or not it turns out to be a waste. I can drive fairly well in the snow but so many don’t have a clue.

[0leman]

One late night some years ago, I got out there and shoveled all that ice back out in the road, then he'd come by and plow it over my driveway, then I shoveled it back out in the road.  It was like the Hatfields and McCoys.
 

Several years back when We lived in Susanville (Northern CA), we had 5' of snow dropped on us in less than 3 days.  The city decided to plow the snow on the sides instead of the middle of the road in our neighborhood as they had done in previous years.  We had a four foot wall of compacted snow/ice in driveways. The plow operators were told by their bosses that the pile of snow in the middle of the road was a emergency hazard as the emergency vehicle couldn't go thru the snow pile to get to homes on the other side of the road.   Our neighbors and I got together and shoveled out our driveways.  Couldn't find the sidewalks under the piles of snow.   .

When we shoveled out the driveways we made piles at each end of the driveways so that the snowplow drivers could push snow back in driveways.  They hardened and lasted the rest of the winter.  Finally had to break them up at the end of February. 

[Jess from VA]

I did make ice piles on each end, but it was very heavy, so the center I just threw back out in the street (rather than lug it over to one side or the other).

I take back some of the bad things I said about our local plow guys.  They did a good job last night (and didn't cover everyone's driveway, too much).  Only about 5 inches of wet snow. 

[Bigwolf]

OK, some have forecast snow for tonight and tomorrow, some have not. The road crews have been pouring salt slurry on the roads around here all day today.  Now the roads are white.

I understand that many people have trouble driving on slick roads and need such things as this done but I don’t like it!  Glad that I got back home yesterday before they started laying that crud down early this morning.

Is it common to put it down before a snowfall ? Seems counterproductive and wasteful.

F6John is correct.  The salt slurry works best when it is applied to the road before snow hits.  The slurry is not just salt water, it is a combination of salt, alcohol, fruit juice, and water.  They usually use apple or grape juice.  The juice makes the mixture sticky and adheres to the road (and your vehicle) holding the salt in place so that it is not quickly flushed off the road.  If it were to be spayed on top of the snow, it would leave the road along with the snow and no longer benefit the road.  However, when put down before the snow, the melted snow does not carry all of the salt off the road with it.  It only carries the amount of salt required to melt that amount of snow.

[Bigwolf]

One of the things that bothers me about the heavy use of salt on the roads is the risk of vehicular failures brought about by corrosion.  Modern cars and trucks have sensors at the wheels that are necessary for proper operation of the antilock brake system.  The engineers may be addressing this issue now but currently, most cars will have no brake at all if even one of those sensors fail.  In heavy salt areas, wrecks have been happening for this very reason.  The other issue, that is not as critical because of redundancies, is that the hydraulic brake lines on vehicles are still made of steel, not stainless steel, just steel that does rust thru.

Yes, I know, what is the trade off?  Wrecks on slick roads or wrecks caused by equipment malfunctions, I guess you have to pick one.

[The emperor has no clothes]

OK, some have forecast snow for tonight and tomorrow, some have not. The road crews have been pouring salt slurry on the roads around here all day today.  Now the roads are white.

I understand that many people have trouble driving on slick roads and need such things as this done but I don’t like it!  Glad that I got back home yesterday before they started laying that crud down early this morning.

Is it common to put it down before a snowfall ? Seems counterproductive and wasteful.

F6John is correct.  The salt slurry works best when it is applied to the road before snow hits.  The slurry is not just salt water, it is a combination of salt, alcohol, fruit juice, and water.  They usually use apple or grape juice.  The juice makes the mixture sticky and adheres to the road (and your vehicle) holding the salt in place so that it is not quickly flushed off the road.  If it were to be spayed on top of the snow, it would leave the road along with the snow and no longer benefit the road.  However, when put down before the snow, the melted snow does not carry all of the salt off the road with it.  It only carries the amount of salt required to melt that amount of snow.

Very interesting  I’ve never heard of that. In Southcentral Alaska just sand with enough salt mixed in to keep it from clumping up is used. Fruit juice would cost $12 a gallon there, and you would have 4000 moose on the road lapping it up.

[Bigwolf]

Since salt does no good at temps below 20f, I would wonder if it was very helpful in Alaska anyway.

[NewValker]

One of the things that bothers me about the heavy use of salt on the roads is the risk of vehicular failures brought about by corrosion.  Modern cars and trucks have sensors at the wheels that are necessary for proper operation of the antilock brake system.  The engineers may be addressing this issue now but currently, most cars will have no brake at all if even one of those sensors fail.  In heavy salt areas, wrecks have been happening for this very reason.  The other issue, that is not as critical because of redundancies, is that the hydraulic brake lines on vehicles are still made of steel, not stainless steel, just steel that does rust thru.

Yes, I know, what is the trade off?  Wrecks on slick roads or wrecks caused by equipment malfunctions, I guess you have to pick one.

Bigwolf, you are right on the $$$.
All of our salt trucks are rotting out from under us. We replace rotting & leaking oil pans every other year, spring hangers, air brake cans, wiring to strobes, and the mechanics have given up replacing the ABS sensors. We all just know not to trust the ABS system, like the old days lol.
Last year we sent an all wheel drive wing plow with a sander body on it out for a full frame replacement.
I don’t know the exact cost, but it was in the 55-60k range. Truck replacement would have been 250k.
I plow with an 08 International with a combo dump/salter body, and last year they replaced all the
panels on the body that we’re available, bead blasted and painted it. It’s rusting out again already...
We have 6 Ford 1 tons that plow, and all of them go thru brake lines, rocker panels, and floorboards, and endless electrical problems.
We use no sand at all anymore. Not sure who decided salt was better and cheaper than sand, but I’m sure he has an engineering degree and is 60% smarter than the guys that work the roads....
Craig

[Rams]

Try using copper/nickle brake lines.   A bit softer metal but you won't be worrying about rusting brake lines. 

Rams

[Bigwolf]

I remember replacing brake lines with copper.  It worked well, but some people used the thinner copper made for water lines.  Those could not handle the pressure and would rupture.  They outlawed copper brake lines o stop that from happening.

Some places will make stainless steel lines now although they are pricey.  I have not heard of  copper/nickel line but it sounds good.

[Rams]

Some places will make stainless steel lines now although they are pricey.  I have not heard of  copper/nickel line but it sounds good.

This is brake line, not copper tubing.
It's a bit higher priced and is sold at most auto parts stores in 25' rolls (IIRC).  You have to flare your own ends but it won't rust out on ya.   Stainless steel prebent brake lines are also available (normally a special order) but they are kind of pricey.   

Rams

[Alpha Dog]

Some places will make stainless steel lines now although they are pricey.  I have not heard of  copper/nickel line but it sounds good.

This is brake line, not copper tubing.
It's a bit higher priced and is sold at most auto parts stores in 25' rolls (IIRC).  You have to flare your own ends but it won't rust out on ya.   Stainless steel prebent brake lines are also available (normally a special order) but they are kind of pricey.   

Rams

A few year ago I had to replace the brake lines in my 02 chevy express and my mechanic down the road suggested and I did with stainless steel.  I think I had to in my 09 Savanna also about two years ago, and sensors galore.  I am not too sure I like the trade off. 

[Bigwolf]

I hear you Craig!

It is a sad mistake that decisions are made by people that don’t even ask the people that work out there where the rubber meets the road.

[Rams]

Some places will make stainless steel lines now although they are pricey.  I have not heard of  copper/nickel line but it sounds good.

This is brake line, not copper tubing.
It's a bit higher priced and is sold at most auto parts stores in 25' rolls (IIRC).  You have to flare your own ends but it won't rust out on ya.   Stainless steel prebent brake lines are also available (normally a special order) but they are kind of pricey.   

Rams

A few year ago I had to replace the brake lines in my 02 chevy express and my mechanic down the road suggested and I did with stainless steel.  I think I had to in my 09 Savanna also about two years ago, and sensors galore.  I am not too sure I like the trade off. 

Please enlighten me on the issue(s).   I've never gone the Stainless Steel brake line route but am interested in your opinion/experience.   

A few years ago I started replacing corroded "OEM" brake lines with the copper/nickel lines and have absolutely zero issues since then.   I'm one of those guys that tend to drive my rigs till they won't go any more (as long as they are safe to be on the road).  I fully expect the bodies of my two Cummins powered trucks to fall apart before the drive train gives up the ghost.

Almost pulled the trigger on a (almost) new Ram (yeah, another diesel) last week but simply could not justify the cost versus the ROI.   

Rams 

[Alpha Dog]

Some places will make stainless steel lines now although they are pricey.  I have not heard of  copper/nickel line but it sounds good.

This is brake line, not copper tubing.
It's a bit higher priced and is sold at most auto parts stores in 25' rolls (IIRC).  You have to flare your own ends but it won't rust out on ya.   Stainless steel prebent brake lines are also available (normally a special order) but they are kind of pricey.   

Rams

A few year ago I had to replace the brake lines in my 02 chevy express and my mechanic down the road suggested and I did with stainless steel.  I think I had to in my 09 Savanna also about two years ago, and sensors galore.  I am not too sure I like the trade off. 

Please enlighten me on the issue(s).   I've never gone the Stainless Steel brake line route but am interested in your opinion/experience.   

A few years ago I started replacing corroded "OEM" brake lines with the copper/nickel lines and have absolutely zero issues since then.   I'm one of those guys that tend to drive my rigs till they won't go any more (as long as they are safe to be on the road).  I fully expect the bodies of my two Cummins powered trucks to fall apart before the drive train gives up the ghost.

Almost pulled the trigger on a (almost) new Ram (yeah, another diesel) last week but simply could not justify the cost versus the ROI.   

Rams 

Both times I had lines that rusted out.  They are always painting the roads around here at the slightest hint of snow, even a skiff like what happened about 6 times of April last year and severely limited my motorcycle riding.  My mechanic  Hi Tech Automotive in Arcanum, only about a quarter mile away says he sees this happening all the time and suggested stainless steel since it would probably not rust and of course a lot of aftermarket regular lines are cheap Chinese steel.  I think the cost for a complete replacement was about $600.00, but his prices tend to be high but he always gets the job done right.  Had he mentioned copper as an alternate at cheaper prices I would have went that route, but did not know about it.  Anyway my braking system on both units is working well.

I do not need any diesel as the most I carry is 4000 lbs in my 09 Savannah Penske 16 foot box truck.   I mostly replaced the 02 Chevy Express  6.5 diesel  ( but I do use it some, even though body is eating away, that engine is strong ) with a 2018 Chevy Express High roof 12 foot Unicell body last June and absolutely love it, especially since on state roads in the summer I get 18.5 to 19.5 mpg with GMs newest 4.3 liter engine that has all the power I could need.

Ron I feel for you with the prices of new Rams, it is astronomical.  If it was me and of course it is not, I would look for a great deal on a well taken care of used diesel probably before 2008 when they went the def route, but I am no expert on these any more.  The newer Duramax's seem really good also, but that defeats your profile.

[Rams]

Ron I feel for you with the prices of new Rams, it is astronomical.  If it was me and of course it is not, I would look for a great deal on a well taken care of used diesel probably before 2008 when they went the def route, but I am no expert on these any more.  The newer Duramax's seem really good also, but that defeats your profile.

Alpha,
A brand new Ram was not even a consideration.   Way too much money!   I found a used 2016 one ton that was equipped almost exactly the way I would order a new one.  6.7L turbo diesel, six speed manual, etc.....  It was priced well within my price range but, the ROI simply would not justify the purchase when I have two older Cummins that are performing well.  

When I consider the dollars going out for truck payments, insurance, maintenance and other costs of the newer truck and compare that to what it costs for me to operate the two paid for truck costs, it's not even a close call.   Add the factor of my own age and knowing that I (most likely) won't be doing what I do now for ever.   It just didn't make sense to be making payments on a truck I would never use up.

Reference those brake lines.   There are several different versions of stainless steel.  I have no idea what was installed on your vehicles but, the mixture of alloys in the metallurgy is ultimately important.  

 See the provided link:  
https://www.britannica.com/technology/stainless-steel

There are many different versions and just because it is advertised as "stainless steel" is no guarantee it won't rust.

Edited:  Oh yeah, just an FYI, what I drive has absolutely nothing to do with my screen name.  Just happens to coincide.  Rams is the acronym for my family members.

R-Ron
A-Alice, my wife
M-Matthew, my son
S-Sarah, my daughter


Rams  

[f6john]

Given its a safety issue, I think the automakers should install the stainless lines for vehicles being delivered to rust belt states. Labor costs would be the same and volume buying would make it cheaper for them to do vs the new owner down the road. It would be a lot better issue for safety advertising than radar braking and lane departure warning devices.

[Alpha Dog]

Ron I feel for you with the prices of new Rams, it is astronomical.  If it was me and of course it is not, I would look for a great deal on a well taken care of used diesel probably before 2008 when they went the def route, but I am no expert on these any more.  The newer Duramax's seem really good also, but that defeats your profile.

Alpha,
A brand new Ram was not even a consideration.   Way too much money!   I found a used 2016 one ton that was equipped almost exactly the way I would order a new one.  6.7L turbo diesel, six speed manual, etc.....  It as priced well within my price range but, the ROI simply would not justify the purchase when I have two older Cummins that are performing well. 

When I consider the dollars going out for truck payments, insurance, maintenance and other costs of the newer truck and compare that to what it costs for me to operate the two paid for truck costs, it's not even a close call.   Add the factor of my own age and knowing that I (most likely) won't be doing what I do now for ever.   It just didn't make sense to be making payments on a truck I would never use up.

Reference those brake lines.   There are several different versions of stainless steel.  I have no idea what was installed on your vehicles but, the mixture of alloys in the metallurgy is ultimately important.   

 See the provided link: 
https://www.britannica.com/technology/stainless-steel

There are many different versions and just because it is advertised as "stainless steel" is no guarantee it won't rust.

Rams 

Thanks for the info. on stainless Ron.  I am not sure what Tom at Hi Tec used, in the end I guess I have to trust him.  He keeps up with constant training.  Those older cummins are great trucks.  I had three between 2000 to 2009.  Biggest mistake I made was the 5 speed manual that always went through clutches, but I did not do due diligence otherwise I would have gotten the 6 speed.  The 2003 automatic had constant problems with aluminum flywheels. I  did buy a 2007 automatic when they went with the Aisin transmission that performed with no problems for 150k miles until I sold it in 2009 when I got out of the hot shot business.

[Alpha Dog]

Given its a safety issue, I think the automakers should install the stainless lines for vehicles being delivered to rust belt states. Labor costs would be the same and volume buying would make it cheaper for them to do vs the new owner down the road. It would be a lot better issue for safety advertising than radar braking and lane departure warning devices.

I sincerely agree.  I now remember replacing lines on the wife's 2007 Buick Rainer ( no longer has it ) with stainless also.  For the price they charge it should be standard equipment on all vehicles because you never know where they will end up.

[Bigwolf]

Given its a safety issue, I think the automakers should install the stainless lines for vehicles being delivered to rust belt states. Labor costs would be the same and volume buying would make it cheaper for them to do vs the new owner down the road. It would be a lot better issue for safety advertising than radar braking and lane departure warning devices.

I sincerely agree.  I now remember replacing lines on the wife's 2007 Buick Rainer ( no longer has it ) with stainless also.  For the price they charge it should be standard equipment on all vehicles because you never know where they will end up.

I agree with you both!  However, the US Government did a study and concluded that rusted brake lines and such were the fault of the vehicle owners.  They said owners were not washing their cars properly and were therefore at fault.     The result of that study was published a few years ago absolving car manufacturers of any responsibility.

[Rams]

Given its a safety issue, I think the automakers should install the stainless lines for vehicles being delivered to rust belt states. Labor costs would be the same and volume buying would make it cheaper for them to do vs the new owner down the road. It would be a lot better issue for safety advertising than radar braking and lane departure warning devices.

I sincerely agree.  I now remember replacing lines on the wife's 2007 Buick Rainer ( no longer has it ) with stainless also.  For the price they charge it should be standard equipment on all vehicles because you never know where they will end up.

As long as the vehicle makes it through the warranty phase...........   

Rams 

[Gryphon Rider]

Road salt is the reason I won't ride Gryphon at all through the winter, even if it's warm and the ice is melted.  I try to hold off riding until we get some rain in the spring to rinse the salt away.  In Calgary we spray with a calcium chloride (CaCl₂) solution when snow is predicted and the temperature is warm enough for it to be effective.  When it's colder they spread salted (NaCl) fine gravel on icy sections of road.  In the spring, motorcyclists need to be careful of the gravel, especially at intersections and on the shoulders, but it tends to be pushed off of the path of travel and is not really a concern for attentive riders.  Edmonton uses sand rather than gravel, which tends to stay on the road in the spring, rather than being pushed to the side.