'98 Tourer smokes after it warms up...

[mrpeter]

Full story:

I have a 1998 Honda Valkyrie. Great bike! I decided to do some maintenance since it is almost at 70,000 miles this year, so while I was doing the oil before this riding season, I decided to adjust the valves.

Pulled the valve covers off and adjusted the valves, no problem, flushed the coolant while I was at it, and refilled the oil (I am trying new oil this time, because I read that the "energy saving" oil I had been using is no good for wet clutches).

Well, while putting the covers back on, like a genius, I snapped a valve cover bolt off in the head. To keep things short, I had to pull the head and take it to a machine shop to have them machine out the insert and make me a new one. I put the head back on with a new head gasket, and got it all buttoned up.

Now when I ride, it sounds and runs great, but after the bike is warm, it smokes quite a lot, but it seems to be coming out of BOTH TAIL PIPES (this is the weird part). The smoke does not appear to be blueish, like I would expect oil smoke to be, but it is also not sweet smelling, like I would expect coolant smoke to be. It is white (maybe grey?), but stinky.

According to the service manual, when I was installing the head gasket, I was supposed to replace the "oil orifice". While taking the head off, I didn't see any such orifice, and I'm pretty meticulous about keeping my parts organized. I figured it must not have applied to my bike or something, so I just left it alone, and installed the head with nothing in the tiny hole that the service manual was pointing at.

Also, I screwed up during the repair and filled the engine with 4qts of oil.. twice.  I did start the bike up with this much oil in it, but I didn't run it for very long at all before I realized my mistake.  I drained the oil after running for less than 5 minutes.

While I was changing the spark plugs, I also put a couple oz. of seafoam into the pistons to clean them up a bit, but that has definitely burned off by now... right?

I have some theories, but honestly I have never taken a head off this bike before and I'd like to not take it off again if I don't have to. I'm wondering what you folks think of this strange problem.

Thought process about the issue:

Only one head was off (head bolts torque letting coolant seep into pistons? But then why smoke from both tailpipes?)
Different oil (Using thicker 10w40 amazon basics synthetic diesel oil instead of the same 10w20 mobil 1 synthetic oil I've been using for years), but wouldn't thicker oil be LESS likely to slip past the pistons?
Different coolant (using Honda OEM instead of green stuff this time)
New oil filter (that can't be causing this. Same brand filter too)
No oil orifice? Could this be flooding one of the heads with too much oil? If that's the case, why is the smoke coming out of BOTH SIDES?
Valves adjusted (all the valves needed very minor adjustments... because they were too tight as the valve seats have worn. Could this be the case? Could I have adjusted them wrong, causing oil to burn???)
New spark plugs (using iridium plugs instead of OEM plugs this time).


Next steps I was planning to do was pull the cover of the head that had to be taken off, loosen the cam bolts (I did not do this before), re-torque the head bolts, and then re-torque the cam bolts... Or maybe I should just retorque the head bolts and leave the cam bolts alone? I did not remove the cam when removing the head.

Thanks in advance for your advice and discussion. I might be a little over my head (ha) on this one. This is what I get for doing my own dang service...

UPDATE: So I just went ahead and checked the torque on all the head bolts (on the head I had removed), and they're snug as a bug, although I did not loosen them before tightening them.  When I took the valve cover off, they cover was full of a good bit of oil (though this side is the low side while on the side stand).  Is that normal?

EDITED to add some more details (seafoam, new plugs, and oil overfill)

[pancho]

Check your oil level with the bike upright.

[indybobm]

Do you have stock exhaust or one with a crossover pipe between them? Does more smoke come out one side more than than the other?

[mrpeter]

It does appear to be coming out of the right (high) side more than the left, but it is definitely coming out of both sides.  The head that I removed and replaced was the left (low) side.

I have a stock exhaust with no crossover.

So when I took the head off and brought it to the machine shop, and then put it back on, I bought extra oil thinking I would need to drain oil to do so, which I did not.  When I put the head back on, I added an additional 4 qts of oil.  After starting it up for the first time, I realized the stupid thing I did and drained the excess oil, so it was overfull for a while, but I drained it back down.  It only ran for about 3-5 minutes like that at the very most.  The oil now reads right in the middle of the dipstick with the bike level and the dipstick NOT screwed in.  My understanding is that this is the right way to measure it.

I have also pulled the plug on the tube under the bike, and a small amount of something (coolant?) came out. It did not look like oil.

Next step I think will be to inspect the plugs.  I forgot to mention that I also swapped the plugs with their iridium equivalents while doing my stupid service.

[The emperor has no clothes]

You probably should have mentioned that in the first sentence.  you had 8 quarts of oil running for 5 minutes ? I'm not sure what that could do ? Blow out some seals maybe ? But I'm pretty sure that caused your issue. Have you looked at the air filter since ? Seems like it would have puked up a bunch there.

[WintrSol]

Too much oil, even when just sitting, will seep into the cylinders. A quart or two over will mostly affect the left (down) side; not sure how high an extra four quarts will go, but might have saturated the rings on the right side.

[mrpeter]

I'll have a look at the air filter then.

So what do I do to fix that issue then? Just run it until it clears?

[LB]

I'll have a look at the air filter then.

So what do I do to fix that issue then? Just run it until it clears?

8 quarts of oil in the engine will cause the oil to foam ... the foam will cause oil pump starvation (pump can't move the foam) and the oil pressure will drop like a brick. It all depends on how long the engine was run in that condition. All you can do now is run it with the correct amount of oil in it. If it stops smoking you should be ok, if it doesn't, then you have cooked the engine.

[mrpeter]

Oh geez.. well that sure makes me feel like a moron.

It was only idling, and I'm sure it wasn't even that 5 minutes.  I'll just keep running it then I guess.

Thanks for the advice y'all!  I'll post an update if the smoke stops or if it quits smoking.

[..]

If the oil foamed I would drain the oil to get rid of it. Then refill with the correct amount.

[Bighead]

If the oil foamed I would drain the oil to get rid of it. Then refill with the correct amount.

At least do this^^^^^^

[LB]

If the oil foamed I would drain the oil to get rid of it. Then refill with the correct amount.

At least do this^^^^^^

I believe he did that.

[Bighead]

No he said he drained it down to correct level. Is what I read.

[pancho]

The oil now reads right in the middle of the dipstick with the bike level and the dipstick NOT screwed in.

I hope you mean in the middle of the flattened section at the bottom of the dipstick.

[LB]

No he said he drained it down to correct level. Is what I read.

You're right .. he needs to drain it.

[97BLKVALK]

Just posting a question. 

Would excess oil affect the valve stem seals?  i.e. too much pressure ??????

Michael

[pancho]

After starting it up for the first time, I realized the stupid thing I did and drained the excess oil,

What happened to make you realize all the extra oil was in the motor mrpeter?

[The emperor has no clothes]

After starting it up for the first time, I realized the stupid thing I did and drained the excess oil,

What happened to make you realize all the extra oil was in the motor mrpeter?

It's got to be hard to admit to stupid things to the entire internet universe. So, first off I commend your honesty. I was wondering how you could even get that much oil in ? Seems like it would be overflowing.

[Grumpy]

My thoughts are when it was over filled, it pushed a lot of oil through the motor and loaded the mufflers with it. When the mufflers get hot would burn some of it off and cause the smoke. I would try to make a long run and get the mufflers hot and see if it burns off and stops smoking.

[The emperor has no clothes]

My thoughts are when it was over filled, it pushed a lot of oil through the motor and loaded the mufflers with it. When the mufflers get hot would burn some of it off and cause the smoke. I would try to make a long run and get the mufflers hot and see if it burns off and stops smoking.

Bingo ! I think we have a winner. 

[Bighead]

I would still change the oil and make sure the level is correct.

[Asian Redneck]

My thoughts are when it was over filled, it pushed a lot of oil through the motor and loaded the mufflers with it. When the mufflers get hot would burn some of it off and cause the smoke. I would try to make a long run and get the mufflers hot and see if it burns off and stops smoking.

I too believe that it's the oil that got pushed into the exhausts that is burning! Don't know how much got in there, but it might not be a bad idea to take one side off and stand it up and see if any drains out. If it does have oil in it, there is probably something someone here can suggest to flush it out with. Beats taking the head off again!

[Grumpy]

Each muffler has a drain hole about center of the can, any real excess would run out there. Probably just has a light coating that will burn off with a good ride.

[pancho]

I hope mrpeter comes back to supply all the gristly details,, yeah, a bit embarrassing, but but we're all big boys here (at least full grown). I mean, the fact that you were able to remove a head, fix it and get it back on correctly,,, more than many could do, just proves that this kind of stuff can happen to anyone. I also don't think you have damage to your motor, there would be signs when it was warming up, but the details of what happens when there is that much oil in our bikes would add to the knowledge base.

Good thinking Grumpy,,  that's sounds like a likely explanation.

[cookiedough]

is you were using 10w-20 my question is why?  10w-40 is what bike calls for but I use 5w-40 with no issues, at least not so far.  Others run 15w or 20w but 10w-40 is best I think since what mfg. calls for.

drain oil, then add new and exact amount should be 4 ounces (give or take a few ounces) shy of a full 4 quarts of oil.  I tip cycle over to the right side a few minutes to drain another 3-4 ounces of oil out the drain plug and oil filter area.  check OEM dipstick not screwed in with bike sitting level sitting on the seat and should read right at the upper mark on dipstick.

[mrpeter]

OP here.  Dang, I didn't think y'all would be so interested in my stupidity.  I'm really grateful for everyone's support, and restraint in bashing my derpitude.

I hope mrpeter comes back to supply all the gristly details,, yeah, a bit embarrassing, but but we're all big boys here (at least full grown). I mean, the fact that you were able to remove a head, fix it and get it back on correctly,,, more than many could do, just proves that this kind of stuff can happen to anyone. I also don't think you have damage to your motor, there would be signs when it was warming up, but the details of what happens when there is that much oil in our bikes would add to the knowledge base.

Thank you Pancho!  I'm back to address all the unique comments you have contributed to my stroke of genius!

is you were using 10w-20 my question is why?  10w-40 is what bike calls for but I use 5w-40 with no issues, at least not so far.  Others run 15w or 20w but 10w-40 is best I think since what mfg. calls for.

drain oil, then add new and exact amount should be 4 ounces (give or take a few ounces) shy of a full 4 quarts of oil.  I tip cycle over to the right side a few minutes to drain another 3-4 ounces of oil out the drain plug and oil filter area.  check OEM dipstick not screwed in with bike sitting level sitting on the seat and should read right at the upper mark on dipstick.

Maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but 10w-20 was the thickest that Costco carried, and somewhere (maybe here?) I read that someone just used the same stuff that their car used and it ran fine.  I've been running that Mobil 1 full synthetic, changed every year with a new Purolator Pure One PL14610 filter for years, but the transmission shifting was very clunky sounding.  I figured as long as I didn't use the green-label "MPG improving" oil I was fine, but then I read about the little circular label on the back that says "energy conserving"... So I made the switch to this Amazon Basics diesel oil in 10w40, which the bike actually calls for.  Sounds lovely when it runs, and it's a good bit cheaper, and now shifting gears sounds MUCH closer to a "click" than a "KA-CHUNK". Project Farm on YouTube did a comparison of the two brands (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9DWGtXpYUc) so I trust it well enough.

I did drain the oil, collect it in a pan, and refill it to the proper level, with a level bike and the dipstick not screwed in.

I hope you mean in the middle of the flattened section at the bottom of the dipstick.

Yes, that is what I mean, lol!  I'm stupid, but not THAT stupid.

My thoughts are when it was over filled, it pushed a lot of oil through the motor and loaded the mufflers with it. When the mufflers get hot would burn some of it off and cause the smoke. I would try to make a long run and get the mufflers hot and see if it burns off and stops smoking.

That's the first explanation I've heard that makes sense.  I sure hope that's it!  It's true that the smoke after running it the second time was a good bit less than the first, so this does sound plausible.  Also, the smoke coming out both pipes when I only worked on one side points to this over my botching of the headgasket job.  It also explains why it smokes only when it's hot, and not when it's cold. If engine oil was pushing past the pistons, it would smoke right away.

What happened to make you realize all the extra oil was in the motor mrpeter?

Time for more honesty:  When I took the head off, I made sure to mark with some nail polish and a Sharpie Paint Pen the position of the timing belt on the cam wheel, so that I could put it back where it was, BECAUSE I'M SMART!

What I didn't do was mark the crank wheel  

So when I put the head on, I was a bit nervous and lined up the belt just right on the cam wheel, but didn't notice that the now-slack timing belt had jumped a notch on the cam wheel.  You can guess where this is going.

Our bikes are interference engines, but apparently, not interference enough to bend a valve when your timing is off by only one belt notch.

As soon as I started it up, I heard a loud ticking from the newly mounted head side, and although it was running, I knew something was wrong.  I did let it run for a minute or so, thinking maybe oil needed to get over to that side or something since I had the head off, and then it hit me all at once: I had doubled the oil and oh man maybe I got the timing wrong!

I initially sucked the oil out of the dipstick hole using the sucker I usually use to pull/fill differential fluid, but then I realized how long I'd be doing it, so I just drained her.

Then I took the belt cover off again and quickly saw that the cam wheels were not aligned.  After a few choice words, I had it adjusted correctly, put the cover back on, filled the oil correctly, and said a prayer to the gods of Honda.  I also pulled the plugs from all three cylinders on that side, and had a look with my endoscopic camera to see if piston face looked like it had made contact with any valves.
It looked just fine, so I gave her a start.  She ran fine and quiet like she should, so I thought I was home free.

Endoscopic camera link: https://www.amazon.com/Depstech-Endoscope-Inspection-Megapixels-Smartphone/dp/B01MYTHWK4/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=endoscopic+camera&qid=1557164295&s=gateway&sr=8-3

I figured if I had bent the valves, there would be marks on the piston face, she wouldn't sound so lovely, and smoke would be coming out of just one side, not both like it has been... So I decided to omit that info to save what was left of my face.  Thanks for prying that one out of me. 

After all that, here's the update you have all been waiting for:

I ran her for about 20 minutes this morning on my way to work after checking the oil level and coolant level (both are right where the should be).  Sure enough, once she warmed up, she started smoking again, but not quite as much as before.  It was so sunny this morning, the smoke got in front of me at a stoplight, and with the smoke being lit up like it was this time, I could clearly tell it was very light blue smoke from oil, and not from coolant.

After parking my bike the first time I rode it with all that smoke, I did notice the pipes continuing to smoke once the bike had stopped running.  I am now fairly confident that Grumpy's assessment is the correct one, and will continue to ride and let that stuff burn off, of course, with updates to you fine folks.

EDITED to make the quotes look right.

EDIT TO ADD: All of your support and kindness in listening to my screwups is really moving to me.  This kind of work (like taking a head off) is the kind of thing I used to do with my dad, who taught me everything I know about engines.  He would keep me from making this kind of learning mistake when attempting projects that are over my head.  If it isn't obvious, I've never taken a head off on my own before.
I lost my dad last year to a horrible year-long battle with brain cancer.  Now I'm making these mistakes on my own and trying to learn from them without the guidance I once had.  I'm very grateful for all of your knowledge and kindness while I bumble around and try to make my old girl run again.  I also have the bike he used to ride ('82 NightHawk 450), which my wife now rides, and I hope to keep that old girl running long enough for our kids to learn on it like I did, with help from kind folks like yourselves.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Most excellent ! Thanks for your follow up. 

[pancho]

WOW,      thanks for taking all the time and the effort mrpeter, really glad to hear you're on the road again,, almost 100%.

[indybobm]

A little late on my part, but welcome to the club!

[Bighead]

Sounds like ol Grumpy Bill hit the nail on the proverbial head

[mrpeter]

UPDATE:

THE SMOKE IS GONE!  After riding to and from work for a couple days, the smoke is all gone and she runs just like she should.  Looks like Grumpy was right!

Thanks again for all of your support.  I'll be sleeping fine again tonight!

[The emperor has no clothes]

UPDATE:

THE SMOKE IS GONE!  After riding to and from work for a couple days, the smoke is all gone and she runs just like she should.  Looks like Grumpy was right!

Thanks again for all of your support.  I'll be sleeping fine again tonight!

He usually is. He knows his way around the Valkyries pretty well.  Glad no harm was done. 

[Bighead]

As said many times before these 1500 flat 6 engines are damn near bullet proof.  

[..]

UPDATE:

THE SMOKE IS GONE!  After riding to and from work for a couple days, the smoke is all gone and she runs just like she should.  Looks like Grumpy was right!

Thanks again for all of your support.  I'll be sleeping fine again tonight!

Woo Hoo!

Did you change the possibly foamed oil?

[mrpeter]

I drained it, and it looked fine, so I put the right amount back in.  Should I have exchanged it?