Stop sign ticket

[..]

Friend got a ticket for failure to stop. She tels me that she didn't do a "California roll" and that the cop must have seen here after she stopped and had moved about 4 feet to be able to see clearly to the left. It's a tricky junction with 3 stops signs at the main road.

She was at the Rickman Rd Stop sign at Warwoman Rd. Turning right.

https://goo.gl/maps/MxACkxxmu35XTEqH9

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/34.8801003,-83.3881447/34.8813677,-83.3832953/@34.8800706,-83.3881755,76m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

It's a 2 point $154 fine.

Once she calmed down she reread the written ticket and saw that the physical location the cop wrote is in fact .3 of a mile to the east. Warwoman and Pinnacle Rd.

Should this ticket be dismissed by the court?

[Pete]

Possibly but I doubt it, as the judge almost always assumes the officer is correct, no matter what.
And even if the address is wrong the officer will testify she did not stop, no matter where.

The only way to beat this is absolute proof that she stopped, ie. witnesses, picture, etc.

[Serk]

Once she calmed down she reread the written ticket and saw that the physical location the cop wrote is in fact .3 of a mile to the east. Warwoman and Pinnacle Rd.

Did she traverse the intersection of Warwoman and Pinnacle on this same trip prior to being issued the citation?

If no, then she's got a good argument to be made to have the ticket dismissed, as she was not at the intersection that day that is listed on the ticket.

Either way, it might be worth her hiring a traffic lawyer just to avoid the points and the insurance hit to fight this, ya' know what they say about people who are their own lawyers.....

[..]

Once she calmed down she reread the written ticket and saw that the physical location the cop wrote is in fact .3 of a mile to the east. Warwoman and Pinnacle Rd.

Did she traverse the intersection of Warwoman and Pinnacle on this same trip prior to being issued the citation?

If no, then she's got a good argument to be made to have the ticket dismissed, as she was not at the intersection that day that is listed on the ticket.

Either way, it might be worth her hiring a traffic lawyer just to avoid the points and the insurance hit to fight this, ya' know what they say about people who are their own lawyers.....

She did drive by Pinnacle after the award.

[..]

Possibly but I doubt it, as the judge almost always assumes the officer is correct, no matter what.
And even if the address is wrong the officer will testify she did not stop, no matter where.

The only way to beat this is absolute proof that she stopped, ie. witnesses, picture, etc.

Then she has to hope the cop doesn't appear in court?

[Serk]

Once she calmed down she reread the written ticket and saw that the physical location the cop wrote is in fact .3 of a mile to the east. Warwoman and Pinnacle Rd.

Did she traverse the intersection of Warwoman and Pinnacle on this same trip prior to being issued the citation?

If no, then she's got a good argument to be made to have the ticket dismissed, as she was not at the intersection that day that is listed on the ticket.

Either way, it might be worth her hiring a traffic lawyer just to avoid the points and the insurance hit to fight this, ya' know what they say about people who are their own lawyers.....

She did drive by Pinnacle after the award.

But after would be irrelevant to the citation, he didn't write her a ticket for something she hadn't done yet. If she hadn't crossed the intersection listed on the ticket before the ticket was issued, it should be easy to get dismissed, especially by a semi-competent lawyer...

[Gavin_Sons]

agreee with Serk, Wrong address or junction that she never went through is easily dismissed in court.

[Wizzard]

my wife got off on one because of exactly that

[bscrive]

This is one of the reasons why I have a dash cam.  Too many cops out there are just itching to give tickets.  The other is the accident scam artists out there.

[Jess from VA]

If the time and effort is worth it to her, I would recommend she go and plead not guilty.

Unless she's in danger of losing her license from points (in which case she would have little chance of winning, since a bad record is always going to be considered against you, and make them not believe you now), or has money to burn, I would not recommend she get counsel, but instead represent herself (assuming she has the ability to speak clearly and confidently in a courtroom).

When she pleads not guilty, the cop is called and speaks first.  She should prepare some cross examination of the mistakes on the ticket (after the cop's done talking she gets to ask him questions), but don't argue with him (he won't fold under pressure), just nail him down to his story and be polite and professional about it. One of the most important things to ask the cop, is exactly where he was sitting (or rolling) when he saw you.  You have him confirm the wrong location on the ticket. Then it's her turn to speak, and she just needs to tell the truth, and point out the mistakes on the ticket, and in the cop's testimony. To sound fair and reasonable, you say you agree with the cop in all things that he said that were correct, but disagree with the pivotal points.  The cop won't cross examine her, but the judge might have questions.

I think traffic judges tend to sit up and listen better when private citizens come to court on their own, and do the best they can.  Unless she's in point trouble, they are curious about why Jane Doe just didn't pay it, but instead took a day to sit in the courtroom.  They expect lawyers to be slick and smooth.  If she has a good record, she should be prepared to explain how good it is, and how few (or no) past accidents she's had, and if she can make a case for a past character for truthfulness, she should make it. This can't take all afternoon or even a half hour, but 5-6 good minutes of relevant talking can be compelling.

The thing I have seen at many, many stop signs in my life (and seen argued about in court), is that the sign is located too far back to make a good visual inspection in both cross directions, before proceeding (if there are shrubs, trees, garbage cans, or crooked roads blocking the view from the sign, take pictures to court). You might be able to see other cross direction cars stopped where they are supposed to, but you cannot see if someone is coming hell bent for leather to run straight through the sign.

Unless there is a white line out ahead of the stop sign, you are supposed to stop with your bumper even with the sign, not roll up past it before stopping (it's done all the time, but is actually an offense).  People come to a full stop at the sign, then slowly begin rolling forward to allow them to actually see the road is clear in both directions, then accelerate through.  What happens is the cop doesn't see the stop back at the sign, just the slow roll and acceleration ahead of the sign, and thinks the driver never stopped all.  Think about it, the reason the driver can't see well enough down both directions of the cross street right at the stop sign, can be the same reason the cop didn't see you stop even with the sign.

The last point to argue in fighting minor traffic offenses is burden of proof. Most all jurisdictions have made the run of the mill tickets civil infractions rather than criminal offenses (excluding reckless, aggressive driving, DUI, fleeing and eluding, etc).  So the burden of proof for a civil infraction is a Preponderance Of The Evidence (51%, or more probable than not), not Beyond A Reasonable Doubt (98%).

At the end of your turn to speak, you should argue that the policeman has not proved his case by a preponderance of the evidence.  He made mistakes, you stopped and he missed it, and at best, the evidence against you is only 50/50..... and that is not good enough to convict (or find you civilly responsible).   This is always a good final point by any layman in court (or lawyer).

If she has the time and inclination, she could run over to the courthouse for an hour or two (before her court date) to see how things go, in preparation (and confidence building).

EDIT:  What you don't do, is run to court (or the cops) and demand dismissal for an incorrect location on the ticket.  Don't give away your best point (before trial).  You go and plead not guilty, and make that part of your case (in front of the judge).  

 

[Moonshot_1]

We need a "CourtTalk" section next to the "Shoptalk" section. That was amazingly informative. Thanks for posting that.

[Jess from VA]

Glad to help.  As I have posted before, I stand ready to help anyone with any traffic or other issues they may have (if I am able; I suck at admiralty, patents, and tax law).  Best by phone or PM or email. I have done so many times in the past.  I do reserve the right to refuse if I think someone has ulterior or unjust motivations.
  
I get the same fees Carl does.  

[Valk-Obsessed]

Depending on how busy the court is and the caseload of the prosecuting ADA, simple tickets like that, often get dismissed before court, especially if the "violator" has an otherwise clean driving record.

Many cops (myself included) would rather not have to go to court  to testify on a  minor traffic infraction if possible. (Court almost always seems to be on your days off, or in the middle of the day when one is on night shift....) Your explanation is more than reasonable, and seems to me to stand a good chance for dismissal.

[Jess from VA]

Some traffic courts have a city or county ADA (usually the most junior prosecutor on the staff) to act for the people.  If they do, you can try to see him in a little office off the hallway to try to deal your case before court time (the policeman there to testify on their tickets that day, are often sitting in there with him).  Sometimes, only attorneys are allowed in to speak or make deals, and unrepresented citizens just have to go into the courtroom and plead up or down (and if you are there to plead guilty, why didn't you just pay the ticket by the due date?).

However, many traffic courts have no ADA (ever, or at least on days when no crimes are on the docket, just simple moving violations), so there is no one to discuss a deal with, so you just have to go in and plead not guilty and have your little (judge alone) trial.

This is why I always suggest going down for a few hours a few days before your case, so you can get the lay of the land.

The reason most moving violations have been changed from small crimes to civil infractions is not only does that make it easier to to prove you guilty by a preponderance of the evidence, instead of beyond any reasonable doubt, it also takes away your right to a jury (which is exceedingly time consuming and expensive in traffic cases).  The eyewash is that you are only guilty of a civil infraction, and not of a crime, but the fines, costs and points (and insurance consequences) are the same.

[Oss]

I would just add a few things

Pictures are better than just words
Demonstrative evidence rules the day

If possible take a picture from the stop sign looking in the direction of the officer
If you cant see where he was then the judge will see that
If there are things blocking the view get them in the shot
Also take one from different distances looking from the officers point of view toward the stop sign
If you cant see the stop sign in the pic he could not have seen that you actually HAD stopped but were creeping to see past the obstructions

Oss

AND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD BE POLITE

[Jess from VA]

I agree on pictures, and maybe a map (blown up to the relevant street area, not the whole state).

If you have them on a cell phone or tablet or something, you can walk over to the policeman on the stand and show them and ask him questions about them (but the judge will want to see too).

If you want to go up to the judge to show him this stuff (during your statement), you ask permission first.

On clothing.  Lawyers better wear suits and ties (see My Cousin Vinny.... you were serious about that?)

I always told citizens to wear nice clean clothing (a real long sleeve shirt and pants that have been pressed, no jeans, tshirts and nothing provocative, a tie is OK), but not their Sunday best either.  The idea is to clearly appear to have made an effort to look respectful, but not to look like you are made of money either.  

Cop is not really derogatory anymore (depending on tone), but it is much better to say policeman.

Sometimes there is a microphone that does more than record, but broadcasts in the courtroom and that can throw people hearing their own voice come back at them.  Don't lean into it, and if too loud, move back a little so long as you can still be heard.

You call the judge judge or your honor or sir, not dude or boss or chief or bro.  So you don't forget the policeman's name in the middle of things, call him officer or sir.  

Try to keep the burping, farting and nose or ear picking to a minimum.

No chewing gum or tobacco (with spit can).

[..]

Thanks everyone.

[cookiedough]

plead not guilty since not in that location.  I could deal with the fine, but 2 points of driving record and even that small amount the insurance rate increase will probably end up costing more than the ticket. 

My local part time rent a cop a-hole wonderlick small town cop pulled me over for rolling thru the main downtown stop sign I have done 100,000 times in the past 25 years living here.  I was probably guilty of  it, not having the truck make that lurching backward feeling when coming to a complete stop, but was definitely not going more than 1-2  mph at most and not like at 9 p.m. at night no one was around me to care besides him. 

He gave me a warning telling me to stop next time and then found out by a few other locals in my small town he has done it to dozens in that intersection trying to play Barney Phiff cop.

[..]

Bump so she can find it easily

[Oldfishguy]

Here was my out.

I was ticket about 7 years ago for speed, 71 in a 55 (??), and I was guilty as charged.  I was having lunch with a high school lawyer friend shortly after and the ticket came up.  He asked me if I wanted to try and not have it on my record.  I said why not, and he said one normally has to pay back to the community some how and show one is working on self improvement for driving.  So, I took a motorcycle course and wrote a motorcycle safety article for a local magazine. 

My friend expected the ticket to be expunged in short order.  Instead I receive a call from him one afternoon and says we are going to court in the morning; definitely not what I was expecting.  We go to court and my friend cuts a deal with the county prosecutor before appearing before the judge and I pay court administrative fees, like $70.

And I been taking a motorcycle course every spring since and involved in a much greater degree with the State on motorcycle safety.  It is odd how things happen sometimes.

[Jess from VA]

Here was my out.

I was ticket about 7 years ago for speed, 71 in a 55 (??), and I was guilty as charged.  I was having lunch with a high school lawyer friend shortly after and the ticket came up.  He asked me if I wanted to try and not have it on my record.  I said why not, and he said one normally has to pay back to the community some how and show one is working on self improvement for driving.  So, I took a motorcycle course and wrote a motorcycle safety article for a local magazine. 

My friend expected the ticket to be expunged in short order.  Instead I receive a call from him one afternoon and says we are going to court in the morning; definitely not what I was expecting.  We go to court and my friend cuts a deal with the county prosecutor before appearing before the judge and I pay court administrative fees, like $70.

And I been taking a motorcycle course every spring since and involved in a much greater degree with the State on motorcycle safety.  It is odd how things happen sometimes.

Wow, I never heard of a high school lawyer.  They made me go and get a B.S. and a J.D., and then pass a terrible two-day test first.       (I know what you meant)

The test was so terrible, when I went to take a leak, there were 5 guys throwing up in there.  I really didn't need to see that.  So I waited as long as possible before I went to take another leak. 

Lawyers make deals.  Local lawyers who know the local DA and cops make better deals.

We only try cases if we absolutely have to.

A deal is a sure thing.  Trials are time consuming, costly, and you never know how they will turn out.

Judges like deals too (as long as they don't get too much bad press about them).  It speeds things up (and they can make their tee times with no sweat). 

[valknation]

I've been told to always go to court for tickets because of the high probability of them getting dismissed, but I've never actually done it. Partly due to getting so few tickets, and I kind of always assume it won't actually get dismissed.

[Gavin_Sons]

I think it is wrong for municipalities  to give their officer's ticket quotas. Their job is to protect and serve not try to criminalize until they reach said quotas.

[Jess from VA]

Of course, total PD funding (cops, cars, training, weapons, buildings, radios, uniforms, yada) can be a big piece of the total county/city budget, and I'm sure the powers that be justify quotas as..... cops helping pay for their own jobs. 

I don't like quotas when tickets push the limits of reasonable judgment (like a 2-over ticket).  But when I get caught doing 15-over, I don't think quota has anything to do with it.  And I don't go to court either.  I pay (and then try to do better.... at not getting caught).

I've spent a couple days in our county courthouse (always hugely crowded).  With interpreters for at least a third of the defendants.  It's long and slow and boring and takes all day.

I will gladly pay $80-150 (for something I'm guilty of) rather than subject myself to another day down there.

[cookiedough]

I've been told to always go to court for tickets because of the high probability of them getting dismissed, but I've never actually done it. Partly due to getting so few tickets, and I kind of always assume it won't actually get dismissed.

I got an 80 dollar fine from local DNR officer and his wife on a NON motorized small lake him pulling up in his 40hp gas outboard with wife in tow.  He said my battery box wedged in the back of my 10 foot jon boat needed to be strapped down and I told him where?  A bungee cord around the rear bench seat will NOT hold it in if the boat tips over battery will go down to the bottom of lake for sure and NOT drilling holes thru the thin aluminum to leak and sink the boat.  He still gave me an 80 dollar ticket at Devils Lake State Park while me and wife went camping that week there.  That was 25 years ago and have not been back since to camp EVER.  He did say I could fight it getting it reduced taking a day off work to drive 50 miles one way in next county courthouse and I told him he should write a ticket to himself since this is a NON motorized gas outboard lake and he is zooming up on me ONLY other boat on the lake and he is violating the law as well even more so.  I guess the rules do not pertain to the DNR wardens?   

[Gryphon Rider]

I told him he should write a ticket to himself since this is a NON motorized gas outboard lake and he is zooming up on me ONLY other boat on the lake and he is violating the law as well even more so.  I guess the rules do not pertain to the DNR wardens?   

I hate to break it to ya, but LEOs are allowed to speed, pull U-turns in the middle of the block, double park, and many other illegal things in the exercise of their duties.

I got an 80 dollar fine from local DNR officer... He said my battery box wedged in the back of my 10 foot jon boat needed to be strapped down and I told him where?  A bungee cord around the rear bench seat will NOT hold it in if the boat tips over battery will go down to the bottom of lake for sure and NOT drilling holes thru the thin aluminum to leak and sink the boat.

If you got pulled over because your trailer was duct-taped to the bumper of your car, would you say, "How am I supposed to connect my trailer?  My car doesn't have a hitch!"?

[Gavin_Sons]

I told him he should write a ticket to himself since this is a NON motorized gas outboard lake and he is zooming up on me ONLY other boat on the lake and he is violating the law as well even more so.  I guess the rules do not pertain to the DNR wardens?   

I hate to break it to ya, but LEOs are allowed to speed, pull U-turns in the middle of the block, double park, and many other illegal things in the exercise of their duties.

I got an 80 dollar fine from local DNR officer... He said my battery box wedged in the back of my 10 foot jon boat needed to be strapped down and I told him where?  A bungee cord around the rear bench seat will NOT hold it in if the boat tips over battery will go down to the bottom of lake for sure and NOT drilling holes thru the thin aluminum to leak and sink the boat.

If you got pulled over because your trailer was duct-taped to the bumper of your car, would you say, "How am I supposed to connect my trailer?  My car doesn't have a hitch!"?

  conservation officers has more authority than state police.

[cookiedough]

I told him he should write a ticket to himself since this is a NON motorized gas outboard lake and he is zooming up on me ONLY other boat on the lake and he is violating the law as well even more so.  I guess the rules do not pertain to the DNR wardens?  

I hate to break it to ya, but LEOs are allowed to speed, pull U-turns in the middle of the block, double park, and many other illegal things in the exercise of their duties.

I got an 80 dollar fine from local DNR officer... He said my battery box wedged in the back of my 10 foot jon boat needed to be strapped down and I told him where?  A bungee cord around the rear bench seat will NOT hold it in if the boat tips over battery will go down to the bottom of lake for sure and NOT drilling holes thru the thin aluminum to leak and sink the boat.

If you got pulled over because your trailer was duct-taped to the bumper of your car, would you say, "How am I supposed to connect my trailer?  My car doesn't have a hitch!"?

fricking common sense does not apply apparently with conservation wardens/DNR.  Putting 2 holes thru the very thin aluminum of a 100 dollar 10 foot jon boat will LEAK to put brackets mounted on bottom and deep cycle heavy battery strapped to it with a strap.  Hey, the battery was in a plastic case just NO way of strapping the case to the boat, unless I guess I get a 10 foot ratchet strap and wrap it around the rear bench seat?  NO bungee cord around the rear bench seat would hold if boat tips over.  Not like the darn battery/case can move one bit was wedged in the back between bench seat and back of boat.

My point was is a NON motorized very small lake NOT legal to drive 40-60hp gas outboards on it at all is illegal and pollutes (gas fumes/exhaust goes into lake water)  what the DNR has setup rules to follow.  Plus, I was ONLY ONE on that lake that day a weekday minding my own business.  He should have come up to me in an electric trolling motor or rowed with oars vs. darn near capsizing me creating huge waves for my dinky jon boat while fishing.  

Nice of him though to tell me I can get it reduced am sure if I took a day off work some 1 hour drive away from my house and go to court.  Smart thing to do would be do give me a verbal warning no ticket and mind his own darn business going to a bigger lake with more boats to get MORE tickets to meet his monthly quota of pissing off people.  

If the wife was not there, I would have told him and his wife to kiss my _ss and tear up the ticket telling him to write me another one.... or go F... himself.!   since found out after the incident he was giving a few fishing from shore tickets for empty bottles near them that were not even there's to begin with.  What a jerk!

[valknation]

I've been told to always go to court for tickets because of the high probability of them getting dismissed, but I've never actually done it. Partly due to getting so few tickets, and I kind of always assume it won't actually get dismissed.

I got an 80 dollar fine from local DNR officer and his wife on a NON motorized small lake him pulling up in his 40hp gas outboard with wife in tow.  He said my battery box wedged in the back of my 10 foot jon boat needed to be strapped down and I told him where?  A bungee cord around the rear bench seat will NOT hold it in if the boat tips over battery will go down to the bottom of lake for sure and NOT drilling holes thru the thin aluminum to leak and sink the boat.  He still gave me an 80 dollar ticket at Devils Lake State Park while me and wife went camping that week there.  That was 25 years ago and have not been back since to camp EVER.  He did say I could fight it getting it reduced taking a day off work to drive 50 miles one way in next county courthouse and I told him he should write a ticket to himself since this is a NON motorized gas outboard lake and he is zooming up on me ONLY other boat on the lake and he is violating the law as well even more so.  I guess the rules do not pertain to the DNR wardens?   

We all know the laws never apply to the cops or DNR themselves!  LOL!!