Steps to address hydrolock

[Gearhead24]

Hello,
I just joined this forum and this is my first post here so I might as well introduce myself.
For starters my name is Aidan and I've got a 98 Valkyrie. This is not my first bike but it is the newest bike I've worked on. All my previous projects were 70's Hondas (Goldwing and two cb400's). That being said this bike is a whole other beast to me.
When I got this bike it was all electrical issues. Had to reconnect the whole harness and re-establish spark on 5/6. Shortly after I got spark on 5/6 I put fuel in the tank and tried to fire it, then it hydrolocked. Luckily the starter gears were not damaged when this happened. Although me being dumb, I kept trying to push the starter after it locked thinking it was the starter that was faulty. The motor will still turn by hand whether I push it in gear (shot a lot of bad gas out of the middle left cylinder) or by the center crank in the timing case. With all the spark plugs pulled I still cannot get the starter to turn the motor. I don't even hear a sound when I push the button. The neutral and high beam lights dim when I push the button so I know it's all working properly up to the starter. Wanted to get some advice before I start shopping around for a replacement starter. Trying to save money since I know I'm going to have to drop a lot on various things even before I get it to fire.
Thanks

[Challenger]

Welcome to the asylum! Do a search on here about starter button repair. The headlights should go out completely wnile starter is engaged. Not much info to go on, but I'm guessing either dirty starter button or faulty connection. Good luck and report your findings to help others with same problem .  

[Mooskee]

Welcome aboard. Look also for the starter relay issues. If you want a full set of schematics, I have them available for free download on my website.
www.valkyriecarbsandcustom.com

Dave

[da prez]

  Aidan ,I will give you some short cuts. (I will be challenged) First , shut or block off the  fuel. Remove the spark plugs.  On the front timing cover ,  remove the center cover. Inside is a hex bolt. I do not remember the size. Put a socket on it with a ratchet. Bar the engine over at least four full revolutions.
Once the engine is known to be free , remove right side cover. The starter lead can be seen. I use a marine battery. You can hook up to a NON-RUNNING car or truck. put the ground cable to a good frame ground. Touch the hot lead to the starter cable. DO NOT have the bike ignition on. Remove key and put it in your pocket. Be sure bike is in neutral. If the starter turns after the sparks startle you , it is a power supply issue. If no starter crank , then it is a bad started. Either way ,you are not the first.
The only dumb question is the one you do not ask. WELCOME to the club.

                                                     da prez

[Gearhead24]

  Aidan ,I will give you some short cuts. (I will be challenged) First , shut or block off the  fuel. Remove the spark plugs.  On the front timing cover ,  remove the center cover. Inside is a hex bolt. I do not remember the size. Put a socket on it with a ratchet. Bar the engine over at least four full revolutions.
Once the engine is known to be free , remove right side cover. The starter lead can be seen. I use a marine battery. You can hook up to a NON-RUNNING car or truck. put the ground cable to a good frame ground. Touch the hot lead to the starter cable. DO NOT have the bike ignition on. Remove key and put it in your pocket. Be sure bike is in neutral. If the starter turns after the sparks startle you , it is a power supply issue. If no starter crank , then it is a bad started. Either way ,you are not the first.
The only dumb question is the one you do not ask. WELCOME to the club.

                                                     da prez
Thanks for that recommendation, I'll give that a shot when I get home. I was thinking about trying that but was worried about my other electrical. I have visited that center crank in the timing cover, but haven't done the 4 rotations. I'll pull my truck battery and try jumping the starter once I'm home. Not sure how strong these starters are but when I had mine pulled I jumped it off my truck not running, and it sounded weak. Other starters I've jumped have had enough torque to make the unit shake around, this one didn't even twitch when it ran. I'll post an update once I've tried jumping it while on the motor.
Thanks

[Gearhead24]

The 30a fuse on the relay is new, I got a new one with my relay and checked it this morning, it's good. The 55a dog one fuse was blown when I got the bike, but just like a few other electrical things on this bike I have a Hotwire to get around it for right now. I do plan on replacing it, but the only two wires going to it are the battery wire and the alternator wire and I couldn't find anything else to go to it.

[Challenger]

A simple volt meter at the starter terminal while pressing the starter switch will determine if the problem is mechanical or electrical.

[Gearhead24]

After many rotations of the engine(I lost track after 5) I tried pushing the starter on the bikes battery and nothing. The battery is new and kept on a tender but I think I got the wrong size battery as it was too short for the battery box itself and needed to be raised to access the posts. Unplugged the starter wire from the relay and jump it to my trucks battery (850cca) and it's first it struggled to move the starter but once I got a couple rotations in the starter ran great. Looked inside the cylinders and saw all the pistons moving with the starter and all the excess fluid got pushed into the exhaust. I think it's safe to say I should return the battery and swap it out for one with a higher cca as I believe the one on is only 75cca

[Gearhead24]

Thanks for that, just found one from autozone. Turns out I was just being dumb when I said 75cca, the current battery is a 190cca but I am going to trade it for a 220cca. Hopefully it is the same price as the one I got before. I just got a fuse ordered direct from Honda for $2, I guess I was overthinking it and figured it would be more for some dumb reason. Oh well. It'll be here in 2 days but I'm going to see what I can do for a battery swap

[da prez]

  Take time to check all grounds. Remove and clean.  Corrosion causes high resistance. High resistance causes heat. Heat melts wiring. Always confirm grounds when checking wiring.

                                     da prez

[Chrisj CMA]

The 30a fuse on the relay is new, I got a new one with my relay and checked it this morning, it's good. The 55a dog one fuse was blown when I got the bike, but just like a few other electrical things on this bike I have a Hotwire to get around it for right now. I do plan on replacing it, but the only two wires going to it are the battery wire and the alternator wire and I couldn't find anything else to go to it.

There should be a spare 55A dog bone fuse in the cap of that fuse box.

[Gearhead24]

Unfortunately there wasn't a spare fuse anywhere. To be honest I'm lucky to have as many parts as I do considering the old owner had a lot of parts removed and scattered across the field the bike was in. I understand how the hydrolock happens now, but in order for me to continue on and repair what caused it I need to make sure I can reliably crank the motor. I do have plans to rebuild all 6 carbs along with the petcock, and see what I can do as far as an electric fuel shutoff valve wired to the key. Got back from the store with a 200cca battery that is tall enough for the box (they didn't have the 220 in stock), and it's charging right now. I went ahead and tested all of the starter relays I have and 3 of them click when I put power on the two nodes from the 4p connector closest to the fuse. When the battery is done charging tomorrow I'll go ahead and slap it on and continue more testing

[Steel cowboy]

Hi gearhead, several of us have switched from the standard petcock used which was vacuum activated with a manual shut off too. Many have gone to a Pingel petcock. No vacuum activated just manual, but you have to reach in to turn it on. The on, off, reserve dial on the left side will no longer function. I and several others have switched to the Honda CBR600 petcock, it is manual only, but you still retain the stock chrome switch for on, off, reserve. You have to remember to turn it on and off.
Another option you may want is a solenoid activated, gas shut off, made by Dan-Mack. gets installed between the petcock and gas line T going to the fuel rails.
My CBR600 petcock is going on 5 years with out any issues.

[Willow]

... I understand how the hydrolock happens now, but in order for me to continue on and repair what caused it I need to make sure I can reliably crank the motor. I do have plans to rebuild all 6 carbs along with the petcock, and see what I can do as far as an electric fuel shutoff valve wired to the key. ...

I don't want to influence you unnecessarily against doing what you're planning to do but nothing you've related indicates that you had a hydrolock.

Rebuilding the carbs is good.  Petcock?  Maybe; maybe not.  If you fear hydrolock then develop a habit of tapping the starter at the beginning rather than just pressing and holding.  If the bike is hydrolocked you will hear a cluck as the starter tries to turn.  The starter simply no longer turning does not indicate a hydrolock.

That you were able to turn the engine over without removing plugs is an indication there was no hydrolock.

[Gearhead24]

All of those options intrigue me, really leaning towards the solenoid valve along with a cbr petcock. Money is a little tight at the moment so I'm doing what I can when I can. I got the new battery installed this morning along with the starter relay reconnected and the starter worked flawlessly. Have it sitting on a tender as well so power isn't an issue now. At the moment I am working on removing the carbs to begin addressing the cyl 4 float valve. That was the cylinder that hydrolocked, when I pushed the bike in gear I saw it gush out of cyl 4. Cyl 5/6 were completely dry so there may be a clog in those carbs that also needs to be addressed. Soon enough ill be shopping around for various carb kits.

[Gearhead24]

Just removed the carbs and I found something thats got me scratching my head a bit. the vacuum tubes connecting into the intake manifolds for cylinders 5,6, and 2 were not connected. They were all blocked and I have no idea why someone would do that considering the rest of the tubes weren't there id have to guess someone went through the process of removing the carbs to get to them and modify the hoses for these three cylinders.

[The emperor has no clothes]

All of those options intrigue me, really leaning towards the solenoid valve along with a cbr petcock. Money is a little tight at the moment so I'm doing what I can when I can. I got the new battery installed this morning along with the starter relay reconnected and the starter worked flawlessly. Have it sitting on a tender as well so power isn't an issue now. At the moment I am working on removing the carbs to begin addressing the cyl 4 float valve. That was the cylinder that hydrolocked, when I pushed the bike in gear I saw it gush out of cyl 4. Cyl 5/6 were completely dry so there may be a clog in those carbs that also needs to be addressed. Soon enough ill be shopping around for various carb kits.

Some tout a manual petcock such as the CBR or the Pingel. It seems strange to me. The OEM Honda petcock can be turned off manually also. If one doesn't trust the vacuum shut off to work, just turn it off every time as you would the others. I would do a complete carb rebuild if it's been sitting for this long, along with fuel rail o-rings. I think you got lucky that you purchased such a small battery. A fully charged battery likely would have broke some gears.

Just removed the carbs and I found something thats got me scratching my head a bit. the vacuum tubes connecting into the intake manifolds for cylinders 5,6, and 2 were not connected. They were all blocked and I have no idea why someone would do that considering the rest of the tubes weren't there id have to guess someone went through the process of removing the carbs to get to them and modify the hoses for these three cylinders.

If it is stock, there should only be one intake vacuum port connected to the petcock. Where are the hoses you talk about going ?

[Gearhead24]

The vacuum hoses I'm referring to are on the back of each intake manifold. There is a little tube that a hose attaches to that run up to the PAIR valve via the #10 hose that connects on the top of the unit

[The emperor has no clothes]

The vacuum hoses I'm referring to are on the back of each intake manifold. There is a little tube that a hose attaches to that run up to the PAIR valve via the #10 hose that connects on the top of the unit

I forgot about the pair valve. I removed mine many years back. It's hard to say why they were unhooked. Regardless, I'm sure they are rotten and need replacement.

[Willow]

The vacuum hoses I'm referring to are on the back of each intake manifold. There is a little tube that a hose attaches to that run up to the PAIR valve via the #10 hose that connects on the top of the unit

I forgot about the pair valve. I removed mine many years back. It's hard to say why they were unhooked. Regardless, I'm sure they are rotten and need replacement.

He only mentioned three that were plugged.  That seems correct to OEM.  OEM would normally have four plugged. California bike?

[Willow]

... That was the cylinder that hydrolocked, when I pushed the bike in gear I saw it gush out of cyl 4. ...

My apologize.  I didn't see that you had removed the plugs and pushed the bike.

You should have fuel pushed out of one cylinder because it was on the power stroke.  We now need to focus on your definition of gush.  If a small amount of fuel is pushed out that is normal.  If it was hydrolocked the cylinder holding the fuel would spray out drenching anything in its path up to several feet in the air.

[Gearhead24]

Well I only got one small push on the bike in second gear, but fluid shot out about a foot in the air about a water bottles worth (regular plastic disposable bottle), but a good amount more went into the exhaust not entirely sure since I couldn't see how much but it made a good puddle. That carburetor was also dripping shortly after I turned on the fuel for the first time. It is a California bike, but the plugs on these tubes were very much not oem. One has a screw jammed into the tube, another was blocked with dirt, and the last was filled with some blue gunk, kinda looked like dried blue thread locker

[wingrider02]

Welcome Aidan,  now that we know it is a California bike, I would certainly recommend demoging that bike.  You can also turn the stock petcock into a manual one.  Get a rebuild kit for the petcock.  All balls has a pretty good rebuild kit.  Red eye had the best, but not sure if he still offers them. 

[Gearhead24]

Just looked it up and I was relieved to find out Cali does not require smog on bikes, could've sworn they did. That being said is there a thread on here that details how to demog these bikes? What sort of mods need to go into it and will it affect the 6 into 6 exhaust in putting on it versus the stock 6 into 2?

[Pluggy]

Some tout a manual petcock such as the CBR or the Pingel. It seems strange to me. The OEM Honda petcock can be turned off manually also. If one doesn't trust the vacuum shut off to work, just turn it off every time as you would the others. I would do a complete carb rebuild if it's been sitting for this long, along with fuel rail o-rings. I think you got lucky that you purchased such a small battery. A fully charged battery likely would have broke some gears.

The Valkyrie Fuel Valve is a manual and vacuum valve assembled together.  The handbook says turn the manual valve OFF to park and ON to ride.  The vacuum valve is a backup should the manual valve leak.  Both valves must fail for fuel to flow when we don't want it.  

Owners who don't turn the valve to "OFF" rely only on the vacuum valve to control fuel flow.  That eliminates the reliability of two valves in the same line.  Turn off the valve OFF while riding and after about a mile you can tell if it is effectively stopping fuel flow.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Just looked it up and I was relieved to find out Cali does not require smog on bikes, could've sworn they did. That being said is there a thread on here that details how to demog these bikes? What sort of mods need to go into it and will it affect the 6 into 6 exhaust in putting on it versus the stock 6 into 2?

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/desmog.htm

If it is a California bike, there are additional things needed to be done. I will look for that write up.

Edit; found this. Hope it helps

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/casmog.htm

[Gearhead24]

Thanks for that, it really helps. I guess now is the perfect time to do this mod since I've already got the carbs off. Will be studying up on this and get this mod done while waiting for a carb kit to arrive. Glad to eliminate some of these damn hoses, it was starting to look a little daunting while taking the carbs off. On another note, the diaphragms in all the carbs looked good. Each float bowl had a little bit of gunk in the very bottom, but only one carb looked suspect when I opened up the float bowl. #6 had rusted inside to a point where the jets were blood red. I've never seen rust like that inside a carb but luckily I have a hypersonic cleaner for it. In case the carb kit I get doesn't have enough Orings for the fuel rails can a harbor freight Oring assortment work?

[The emperor has no clothes]

Thanks for that, it really helps. I guess now is the perfect time to do this mod since I've already got the carbs off. Will be studying up on this and get this mod done while waiting for a carb kit to arrive. Glad to eliminate some of these damn hoses, it was starting to look a little daunting while taking the carbs off. On another note, the diaphragms in all the carbs looked good. Each float bowl had a little bit of gunk in the very bottom, but only one carb looked suspect when I opened up the float bowl. #6 had rusted inside to a point where the jets were blood red. I've never seen rust like that inside a carb but luckily I have a hypersonic cleaner for it. In case the carb kit I get doesn't have enough Orings for the fuel rails can a harbor freight Oring assortment work?

I've not used the Harbor Freight ones. I think they need to be made of Viton. If those are and are the right size, they should work.

[Gearhead24]

Just ordered the all balls kit and an electric fuel valve from amazon. Going to begin disassembling the carbs and desmogging the bike tomorrow. Ill look into the harbor freight Orings and if they aren't Viton then I'm sure Ican find a Viton assortment at ace or home depot. Hopefully I can finally hear this bike fire next week

[wingrider02]

The All balls kit "should" have all the orings you need.  Which valve did you order?

[Gearhead24]

I got this one from US Solid https://a.co/d/04OUVgy , it's got Viton seals and stays closed when off. I wanted to get a Dan Marc but wasn't willing to pay $130 for the valve. I'm hoping the all balls kit has the fuel rail Orings, the only time I've ever had a carb kit come with fuel rail Orings was when it was the "ultimate" kit that had absolutely every single piece that might be degradable. It'll get here today so I guess I'll find out soon enough

[wingrider02]

It has the fuel rail o rings as well.  Will have to let us know how that valve works! 

[da prez]

  Only looking at pictures , it looks large.  On a Valkyrie , the fuel line must be as straight as possible. Keep us informed as you progress.

                                                        da prez

[Gearhead24]

Finished rebuilding and bench synching the carburetors, much more of a hassle than originally thought but it's done. I am moving onto doing the desmog tomorrow and was curious about a couple things in that process. Do the carburetor purge tubes get capped off? The large vent tubes, those two will now have the Purolator vent filter? Since the vacuum tube from the #3 carb goes to the evap system does that also get plugged? What happens to the ports on the intake manifolds? Do I plug the remaining ones and just have them all be plugged? Lastly, the vacuum tube for the petcock was never connected when I got the bike and I have not figured out where it pulls from and the manual doesn't really specify. I know with this electric valve the vacuum safety is not really necessary, but it would be nice to have it installed properly.

[wingrider02]

The vacuum tube for the petcock connects to #6 I believe...rear left intake.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Finished rebuilding and bench synching the carburetors, much more of a hassle than originally thought but it's done. I am moving onto doing the desmog tomorrow and was curious about a couple things in that process. Do the carburetor purge tubes get capped off? The large vent tubes, those two will now have the Purolator vent filter? Since the vacuum tube from the #3 carb goes to the evap system does that also get plugged? What happens to the ports on the intake manifolds? Do I plug the remaining ones and just have them all be plugged? Lastly, the vacuum tube for the petcock was never connected when I got the bike and I have not figured out where it pulls from and the manual doesn't really specify. I know with this electric valve the vacuum safety is not really necessary, but it would be nice to have it installed properly.

It doesn't matter which intake vacuum nipple you connect it to.

[Gearhead24]

So by the end of this, I should only have one tube going to an intake manifold and that would be for the petcock correct?
I just got all of the secondary air pipes removed and cut off the heads as I'm going cheap and will JB weld them sealed and put them back on. The gaskets look good but I can put some gasket maker on them just in case. The heads are being cleaned since each one was basically a carbon crayon. Going to Lowe's in a minute to get the nipple tips for the fuel valve, new fuel line, and hopefully caps for the purge tubes from the carbs.

[The emperor has no clothes]

So by the end of this, I should only have one tube going to an intake manifold and that would be for the petcock correct?
I just got all of the secondary air pipes removed and cut off the heads as I'm going cheap and will JB weld them sealed and put them back on. The gaskets look good but I can put some gasket maker on them just in case. The heads are being cleaned since each one was basically a carbon crayon. Going to Lowe's in a minute to get the nipple tips for the fuel valve, new fuel line, and hopefully caps for the purge tubes from the carbs.

Yes, that is correct. I'm not sure of your reference to nipple tips ? As to the purge tubes, are you talking about the bowl drain tubes ?

[Gearhead24]

The nipple tips are for the electronic fuel valve since it didn't come with any. The tubes I'm talking about come out of the side of each carb. They lead into a 6 way tee just like the drain tubes but they feed into the emission system that's being removed

[The emperor has no clothes]

The nipple tips are for the electronic fuel valve since it didn't come with any. The tubes I'm talking about come out of the side of each carb. They lead into a 6 way tee just like the drain tubes but they feed into the emission system that's being removed

I'd forgot it was a CA bike. When using new fuel line, keep it as short as you can. Even the slightest extra length will kink with the heat from the engine.