Agony of Defeat - Carb Overhaul

[Paladin]

Brief synopsis: Valk running poorly last year. This year would not start at all. Has spark. I discovered that the PO apparently removed the fuel screen and didn't replace it at some point. Petcock crapped out and full of gunk so I figured a carb cleaning/overhaul was a good idea.

Cleaned out the tank and repaired/tested the petcock. I pulled the carb rack. Opted to not separate the indiviual carbs, just cleaned the jets, pilot screws, and bowls. Regretting it now, because after putting it all back together my Valk still won't start.

Replaced all o-rings. Jets looked clear after cleaning (could see light through all holes). Used some aerosol carb cleaner in/on the carb bodies and openings and blew air through the fuel lines to dry everything out before reassembly. Thought everything was clear, but maybe not?

Adjusted pilot screws 2.25 turns out from lightly seated. Rebuilt petcock puts out gas  fine when vacuum applied, and after failed attempts to start the bike today I drained the carb bowls and gas flowed out from the carb drain line so I know gas is actually reaching the carbs. I just don't know what the hell its doing once it gets there, 'cuz it sure isn't starting my bike 

Plan B: Take everything back off the bike (argh...). Separate the individual carbs (like I should have done last time), replace both fast and slow jets with brand new ones, replace float valves, soak the carb bodies a hella long time and make sure that all passageways are clear and clean this time, replace o-rings in the lines between the individual carbs. Put everything back on the bike and give it another try.

Any other suggestions, so maybe I don't have to do this a THIRD TIME?

[Chiefy]

Is it popping like it wants to start?  Any change with the choke full on when you crank?

[John U.]

Chiefy beat me to it about the choke on full. It should start that way even if the slows have reclogged.
Are you sure the battery is good and charged fully. Try jumping off a good battery or non-running car.
Is the gas fresh? Vacume lines and caps good?

[fordmano]

Oh HELL you say?


Welcome to my world of CARBuration Hell. Now I have someone else to follow and share the pain with..

Sorry and good luck too you, maybe you have more time than I have to be able to work on your bike.


Is the entire inatke system completly installed? Airbox air filter and all clamps verified to be on correctly and tight?

Have you tried giving a little blast of starting fluid into the airbox or carburator throats while trying to crank the motor over?

[9Ball]

a strong battery is a must....make sure it is good or connect your car battery to provide additional juice.

Is the gas fresh?  Sometimes a lot of extra additives (seafoam, stabil, others) will cause difficult starts.  Make sure you have fresh, clean gas.  You can put in the additives again after you get the bike running and starting.  I've seen this happen before....

It sounds like the carbs may not be your problem.  Did you by chance have the bank angle sensor out and installed it upside down?

keep us updated....

[Thunderbolt]

As suggested, jump off of non-running car.  Just because it will spin, doesn't mean it will fire.  Make sure choke is moving enrichener valves when you press it down all the way.

[Paladin]

The failure to start yesterday after all the work pretty much took the wind out of my sails for a bit - that's for sure. The idea that is nagging in my brain is that there's fouling somewhere in the carb system that I can't see. The jets were really clogged and the gunk in the bottom of some of the carb bowls was so bad that it was blocking the drain holes. After cleaning the jets and bowls everything looked so clean I figured I had it licked. Hard to believe there's enough crap in one or more passageways that she won't even try to catch when I'm on the starter - but maybe there is. Either that, or there's something incredibly simple out of place and I'm just missing it. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

I put the choke on fully when trying to start and there's no difference from when trying to start without the choke on. No popping, no "kinda wants to start", nuthin'. Just spins with no satisfying catch that would signal at least she's trying to run. Before I gave up I opened up the throttle fully and it changed the pitch (higher) of the sound of the engine turning over and it seemed like it spinned (spun?) a bit faster but that's all. Still no popping, etc.

I put fresh gas in the tank before trying to run her after reassembly. I have a battery charger and I charged the battery before initially trying to start. After trying for a while I took a break to contemplate my mysery and recharged it to make sure the battery was doing everything it could. Seems like its spinning the starter with as much oomph as it usually does. I'll try the jump from my non-running truck battery next time though just to take that completely out of the equation.

Last night, a little voice in my head started whispering "choke enrichment valves..." to me. I didn't remove those when I had the rack out. Maybe there's fouling in there? Looks like the choke linkage is moving all the valves freely when on, but maybe there's crud in the little passageways?

I didn't even know that I had a bank angle sensor Had to look it up online to see if maybe I messed with it without knowing. I didn't. Too bad, that would have been an easy fix

Thanks for the help guys. I'll update any progress (or lack there of).

[9Ball]

if you're getting gas out of the carb drains then I doubt there's a plugging issue.  I think using a jump from your truck battery will do the trick.....

are you sure you reconnected the coil wires properly?

[Six Guns]

Where in Texas are you located? We have a very active Valkyrie group in Texas. We go on rides and have wrench parties every month or every other month. Stop by the Texas board and introduce yourself.

[olddog1946]

mmm, you MUST have a minimum of 2 things to run any motor...fuel and ignition....if you've got fuel in the carbs and didn't forget to remove any plugs (paper, rags, etc stuffed into the intake ports) you have fuel available...that leaves ignition...sounds to me like you've got NO spark at all...first thing I'd check ....any electrical items you've had your hands on...if those are all correct, you might want to check the timing (trigger wheel and pickup and ignition module )...that is assuming (bad word) that jumping from your non running truck doesn't get it to fire up..

[hubcapsc]

and recharged it to make sure the battery was doing everything it could. Seems like its spinning the starter with as much oomph as it usually does. I'll try the jump from my non-running truck battery next time though just to take that completely out of the equation.

One of the most common frustrating things I've ever read about here is people's batteries being strong enough to spin their motors
but not having enough left to make sparks too... make sure, by jumping, or by trying another known-to-be-able-to-start-a-Valkyrie battery,
that you don't merely have a battery problem...


I didn't even know that I had a bank angle sensor Had to look it up online to see if maybe I messed with it without knowing. I didn't. Too bad, that would have been an easy fix

I had to take my center cover off, a horrid and tedious task, to put my bank angle sensor back on upside down.
And then I had to take it off again to put the sensor back on right... nothing easy about that... 

-Mike

[Ricky-D]

Hard to imagine all six spark plugs fowling out but since they are inexpensive I suggest getting six new plugs installed.

***

[Paladin]

Signs of life 

I rolled her out of the garage today and hooked her up to my truck battery in the driveway. At first she spun like she did before, but then began to "thump" a little like she wanted to fire up and run. I'm trying to be careful and not go crazy on the starter motor so I don't burn it up - but the brief signs of life are encouraging. Started raining shortly after I did the jump start test, so I had to abandon the attempt for now.

Its been raining off and on today - usually "on" just as I roll the bike out of the garage and get set up. Being averse to electrocution I'm holding out until it looks like the showers are letting up before I try again. If the showers persist I'll pull the battery out of the truck and move it into my shop with the bike to continue the attempts - garage door open, of course. I've already killed enough brain cells in my lifetime

[Paladin]

OK... jinxed myself. I went back out to the workshop and found a pool of gas under the engine. It doesn't appear to be coming from the petcock. It had pretty much stopped by the time I discovered it, but it appears to be coming from the carb rack - left side. Top of engine on right side is dry, pooling on top of the engine on the left side. I felt the bottoms of the carb bowls as best I could and they feel dry to the touch. New gaskets there anyway so I didn't think that was the location of the leak. Carb drain screws are all closed.

I'm thinking the leak may be coming from one of the joints in the fuel line or along the rail - both parts that I did not dissassemble when I had the rack out (I took the y-shaped fuel line assembly off, but did not take it apart. I know I reconnected the clamps where the line attaches to the carb rack on both sides.

Looks like I'll be taking the tank off and airbox out again - at a minimum - to try and find the leak. If I can't determine where the leak is originating - or if it is one of the o-rings within the carb rail connections - I'll probably go ahead and replace the jets and float valves while I've got the carbs out and apart.

Any suggestions or likely spots where the leak might be coming from based on the above? Its almost like the carbs "overflowed" when I was cranking the engine during the jumpstart test - but I don't think thats possible. Is it?

[rodeo1]

i know this may sound silly to you, but the overflow (vent) hose that plugs in under the rear of the fuel tank and hangs under the bike, can be pinched off very easy when installing the tank. if it is pinched off it will airlock the tank and fuel will stop flowing. try opening your fuel cap when you try to start it, that will unlock the fuel and allow it to flow. this may not be your problem, but it was sure mine once.

[longrider]

OK.  Just a thought here.  First year I owned a valk I drained the carbs for winter storage.  Spring came along and when I tried to start there was no way It would go.  Some valks just will not pull enough vacuum when spinning off the starter to open the petcock.  Remove vac line off #6and apply vacuum for at least two or three minutes.  Lots of choke and she'll go.  You may not have had as much fuel in the bowls as you thought.  Just thinkin before you tear it down again

warren
5054

[Ricky-D]

Regarding the "signs of life" I would think the problem might have been the amount of gas you put in the gas tank.  The carburetors may have simply not been getting enough gas. Reserve and the vacuum pet rooster need the motor running to develop a good gas stream.

Regarding being jinxed I would suggest you absolutely identify where the gas is leaking from. Put more gas in the tank. You need to recreate the leak.  Myself I would block the bike upright and get it off the side stand.  I'd be looking for a stuck or leaky float. Watch out for a hydrolock situation.

***

[Paladin]

I'm just glad I discovered the leak. Would have really sucked if the bike had fired up and I took in on a test ride around the neighborhood only to burst into flames mid-trip.

I'll hunt down the leak, that's for sure. When I pull the rack out this time I'm going to fill the carbs on the bench via the fuel lines and see what develops. Too hard to see where the leak was coming from with the tank and airbox in place.

If nothing else, taking everything apart should go quicker this time. I'd chalk up the first tear down as "just for practice" if it wasn't so irritating 

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Where in Texas are you located?  I know there's enough knowledge in the great state of Texas to get you up and running. The choke on these bikes has to be pushed to the limit. You may think you're gonna break it but push it till it stops.

[N8171S]

Hook up a mity vac or similar vacuum source to the hose that goes to #6 carb to open the petcockand get some fuel flowing.

[Thunderbolt]

I just had one that was leaking from the overflow tube after cleaning up the carbs, same as it was doing before the overhaul.  I tapped the fuel bowls with the plastic end of a screwdriver a couple of times and it stopped.  The needle valve was stuck open and once it got to moving was o.k.  There are two lines that protrude through the rear frame that are open to the atmosphere, they vent the bowls and that was where this one was leaking.  Give the carb bowls on the side that is leaking a couple of raps to loosen the valves so they will close.

[John U.]

Tapping the fuel bowls is a good idea. If the gas was really flowing, then a stuck float is a likely culprit.
If the carbs and fuel lines were dry for a long while, the O-rings in the fuel rail connections can dry out and leak until they swell back up.
You would be wise to pull the plugs before trying again to start her. If the leak was a stuck float you could have hydrolock. Better check the petcock as well.

[R J]

I will still stand by one of the predictions above.

I'll bet $$$$ you and not getting the choke on full.    The little black knob must be pointing straight across the tank to the right handle bar, otherwise you have just taken up the cable slack.   If it points to area above the handlebar on the right, you have only taken up the cable slack.

If it was gurgling like it wanted to go, that choke was not set full on.

You wouldn't be the 1st one to pull that stunt, then walk away red faced after you get it full on and it starts.

PS:    Pull the plugs and spin the engine before ya do anything else.     It could of hydrolocked itself and if you spin the engine, kiss some internal gears good bye.     If you don't have the tools to pull the engine, you will not get out of a stealer for less than $600 to replace your broken gears..

[Paladin]

I will still stand by one of the predictions above.

I'll bet $$$$ you and not getting the choke on full.    

PS:    Pull the plugs and spin the engine before ya do anything else.     It could of hydrolocked itself and if you spin the engine, kiss some internal gears good bye.     If you don't have the tools to pull the engine, you will not get out of a stealer for less than $600 to replace your broken gears..

Choke has been on full. I can see the linkage with the linkage covers off and they've been pegged out to the fullest extent on both sides. Unless the enrichment valves are clogged, choke application isn't the issue.

I made the "I think the choke is on" mistake when I first got the Valkyrie Took me a while to figure out you have to really push it hard before it does anything at all.

I've been reading up on the hydrolock issue, and appreciate the heads up. I'll check things out before I try another start after reworking the carbs (again). I sure don't need to give my Honda shop any more money at the moment

[Mr. Nuts]

My 2 cents is that I would never try and clean the slow jets. I could see light through mine too and they were still bad. Too cheap not to replace with all the work involved.

If you were smart and replaced the bottom carb screws with allen heads when you were there it will be pretty easy to drop the bowl bottoms again and replace just the slow jets. If you didn't do that now might be a good time anyway since everything is fresh in your mind.

Never overlook the obvious either. Once you've cleaned up any gas leaks verify that you have good spark at the plugs. Verify gas is getting to the plugs. Verify your kill switch hasn't been accidently tripped (it is easy to do).

Good luck and keep trying. You'll get it and learn a lot too.

[Paladin]

I'm still guessing blind at this point since I won't have time to pull everything and mess with it until next week - but I'm leaning toward stuck/falty float valve(s) causing gas to come out the vent tubes as the source of the gas "leak". If its not that then maybe a leak along the fuel rail orings or fuel line connections even though I didn't take either apart. I'm also leaning toward the jets being my starting problem even though I cleaned them. I was "penny wise and pound foolish" for not replacing them when I had the rack out before - lesson learned.

I did replace my bowl screws with hex socket head ones last time - but my hands are too big (and fingers too short) to relish working on the jets with the rack on the bike. Since I have to determine for sure where the leak is I'll just pull the whole shebang out again so I can do everything on the bench and test the rack where I can see it clearly. That's been the most annoying part of chasing this problem - having so much go on where I can't see or determine positively what the problem is.

I'm thinking about rigging up some sort of fuel feed to pour gas down the fuel line to the carb rack on the bench (to simulate gas coming out of the tank) before taking the carbs apart, so that I can try to ensure that gas is really coming out of the vent hoses instead of somewhere else. The price for jets isn't too bad through my local Honda shop- but man the float valves are kinda steep ($24 each). I found some at Carb Kit Capital online listed for $6 each... which makes me simultaneously happy and suspicious. Has anyone had experience with their float valves?

This has become a matter of principle now It's me vs carburetors and its ON!!

If nothing else I'm learning a lot, in spite of myself. 

[wizard -vrccds#125]

You are right in pulling them. I just got mine out in about an hour. It is the best was to check and set everything. I have extra sets that are all rebuilt and ready to go! on the shelf.    No down time. This set will be rebuilt when I have the time !   

[Ricky-D]

Seems to me a bunch of overkill since you now know the offending carburetor.

I suggest just fixing that on the bike and continue on with the poor top end performance issue.

***

[wizard -vrccds#125]

if you are going to do something. DO IT RIGHT !

[Brian]

Have you a shop manual? If not I strongly suggest you get one and follow the carb section close. My ride when I bought it sat for over two years with gas in it. Required 5 carb cleanings to get the crap out along with many tanks using Techron. Use fresh gas. Another suggestion is replacing all six needle valves with factory ones. Too much work to mess around with aftermarket here. Also I suggest changing all the fuel rail o-rings as well as the intake o-rings. I believe you can get all these from redeye technologies off e-bay, they are great people to deal with and don't rip you off on shipping. I just purchase the viton o-rings for the intakes from him.  If you live in Texas you may want take them up on their offer for a wrench party, it beats $70 an hour at the bike shop.

Go back and start from scratch, step by step if you have the book and good luck.

PS. I also had three burnt valves, found this out with a compression test before I first got the bike running.