DOT 4 upgrade

[Dirty Dave]

Met an old hot rodder who is also a retired aircraft mechanic who alway replaces DOT 3 & 4 with DOT 5 after cleaning out the reservoirs and lines. Even claims you don't have to be super careful with the cleaning part. Anyone else upgrade clutch/brake fluid like this?

[Fudd]

I think it's Dot 5.1 that is compatable.  I've yet to make the change myself.  Dot 5 & Dot 5.1 have drastically different formulas.  I started researching the compatabilities several months ago and I'm waiting for someone to make the switch first.

[98valk]

Dot 5.1 is for abs systems, has a thinner viscosity. no benefit compared to Dot 4 for street use.

[The Anvil]

DOT5 is silicone based. It doesn't provide many functional advantages over DOT4 (at least not on a road bike) and the seals in the system may not always work properly with the silicone base.

DOT4 works just fine so I see no reason to change.

[John Schmidt]

Yup, per Anvil...no reason to change. A lot of extra work for no real gain in performance for a street bike. Use DOT 4, change your hoses to SS wrapped versions for both the brakes(front and rear) and clutch. Along with that, stick to OEM pads and you have about the best available for the Valk.

[Farther]

change your hoses to SS wrapped versions for both the brakes(front and rear) and clutch.

Any recommendations for the SS hoses?

[The Anvil]

change your hoses to SS wrapped versions for both the brakes(front and rear) and clutch.

Any recommendations for the SS hoses?

I'm a Spiegler guy. I've custom ordered from them quite a bit (including the current lines for the Valk) and their custom products are affordable and made right the first time every time.

Goodridge also makes very good SS and Kevlar lines I just haven't personally used them. I've seen their stuff though and it's top shelf, just like Spiegler.

[Hoser]

Damn, anvil I agree with you again!  What's the world coming to?      Hoser

[T.P.]

I'm a Spiegler guy. I've custom ordered from them quite a bit (including the current lines for the Valk) and their custom products are affordable and made right the first time every time.

quote from Anvil

Here let me do this for ya.  http://spieglerusa.com/brakes/cycle-brake-line-kits.html

[The Anvil]

I'm a Spiegler guy. I've custom ordered from them quite a bit (including the current lines for the Valk) and their custom products are affordable and made right the first time every time.

quote from Anvil

Here let me do this for ya.  http://spieglerusa.com/brakes/cycle-brake-line-kits.html

YES. And if it custom lines you be needin... check here... http://spieglerusa.com/brakes/custom-brake-lines.html The line builder is a really cool tool.

[Madmike]

http://importnut.net/brakefluid.htm

[Ricky-D]

I don't consider you can get any better than the stock solid steel tubing you find on the Valkyrie.

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

Why do you think USDOT is so anal when it comes to the braking systems in automobiles?

Why do you think car manufacturers use solid steel tubing exclusively in their brake systems. The connections between the wheels and the car being the only exception and then USDOT is entirely involved in rating those hoses.

Solid steel tubing.

Much better than hoses.

***

[The Anvil]

I don't consider you can get any better than the stock solid steel tubing you find on the Valkyrie.

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

Why do you think USDOT is so anal when it comes to the braking systems in automobiles?

Why do you think car manufacturers use solid steel tubing exclusively in their brake systems. The connections between the wheels and the car being the only exception and then USDOT is entirely involved in rating those hoses.

Solid steel tubing.

Much better than hoses.

***

Does anyone else with a clue want to take this???

[Patrick]

These bikes seem to work just fine with what Honda put in them, why change ?

[Dirty Dave]

Thanks for the link MadMike. Everything is suddenly clear!

[Farther]

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

I don't think anybody was talking about replacing the steel tubing part of the Valkyrie braking system.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

[The Anvil]

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

I don't think anybody was talking about replacing the steel tubing part of the Valkyrie braking system.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Well you don't really have a choice, the steel parts are pressed into the rubber lines.

But it's a weakest link scenario. The lines having rubber sections are compromised. So replacing a steel tube/rubber line hybrid (which cars also have in the front to allow for steering) with a quality braided line set will yield better results by removing the non-braided rubber hose section. Properly made braided sets expand almost not at all under the kind of force that human hands can generate.

[Ricky-D]

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

I don't think anybody was talking about replacing the steel tubing part of the Valkyrie braking system.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

There's your answer!

Replacing the Honda steel brake line with a braided line is an upgrade. Yep, bling-wise I'm sure.

We've been through all this before.

Honda covers the brake line with an abrasive resistant covering. Under the cover you will find the braid and the inner liner.  All brake lines have to pass USDOT specifications.

So, who's braided line is superior?

Like I said earlier, there is not a better brake line than the solid steel tubing that Honda employs on the Valkyrie.

To deny the obvious is,,, well, you pick!

***

[The Anvil]

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

I don't think anybody was talking about replacing the steel tubing part of the Valkyrie braking system.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

There's your answer!

Replacing the Honda steel brake line with a braided line is an upgrade. Yep, bling-wise I'm sure.

We've been through all this before.

Honda covers the brake line with an abrasive resistant covering. Under the cover you will find the braid and the inner liner.  All brake lines have to pass USDOT specifications.

So, who's braided line is superior?

Like I said earlier, there is not a better brake line than the solid steel tubing that Honda employs on the Valkyrie.

To deny the obvious is,,, well, you pick!

***

An abrasion resistant layer is not the same thing as a tightly braided steel over-wrap. 

But I guess race bikes have steel braided or Kevlar lines just for bling, right? 

[The Anvil]

Because it's all about the bling...

[Tropic traveler]

Because it's all about the bling...

WOW!!!
Check out the gold plating on those forks!!! Man, I hope they offer that same gold plating on all the emblems to match! Gold is soooo much classier than chrome.
Yo... peace out brothers!!! 

[Robert]

I replaced the rear brake line with braided Stainless I consider that a upgrade. The dot 5 silicon brake fluid causes more problems. Like the article said it doesn't absorb water and dissolves any grime in the system. So I have seen it cause holes in brake lines and cause everything the article talked about. Brake fluid was made to keep water in suspension so that in changing the fluid the water and contaminants could be flushed  out of the system. That doesn't really happen with silicon the contaminants can stay in the system unless you drain, flush with alcohol and flush again with brake fluid and then bleed the system every time. The increase in boiling point was the selling feature to anyone with a high performance car but with the super 4 and 5.1 there is no advantage and many disadvantages. We never get the brakes hot enough most of the time and could easily get by with a dot 3.

[The Anvil]

WOW!!!
Check out the gold plating on those forks!!! Man, I hope they offer that same gold plating on all the emblems to match! Gold is soooo much classier than chrome.
Yo... peace out brothers!!! 

It's hard out here for a pimp.

[Robert]

WOW!!!
Check out the gold plating on those forks!!! Man, I hope they offer that same gold plating on all the emblems to match! Gold is soooo much classier than chrome.
Yo... peace out brothers!!! 

It's hard out here for a pimp.

LOL

[Madmike]

I don't consider you can get any better than the stock solid steel tubing you find on the Valkyrie.

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

Why do you think USDOT is so anal when it comes to the braking systems in automobiles?

Why do you think car manufacturers use solid steel tubing exclusively in their brake systems. The connections between the wheels and the car being the only exception and then USDOT is entirely involved in rating those hoses.

Solid steel tubing.

Much better than hoses.

***

Hey Ricky...

PO musta replaced the stock steel tubing with them braided hoses on the front end.... following your advice and I wanna restore the integrity of the braking system on the front end to OEM standards.... how do I measure to determine the correct length for the tubing... with the suspension extended or collapsed????????????

[MP]

I don't consider you can get any better than the stock solid steel tubing you find on the Valkyrie.

Replacing the solid steel tubing with any kind of hose is a downgrade.

Why do you think USDOT is so anal when it comes to the braking systems in automobiles?

Why do you think car manufacturers use solid steel tubing exclusively in their brake systems. The connections between the wheels and the car being the only exception and then USDOT is entirely involved in rating those hoses.

Solid steel tubing.

Much better than hoses.

***

Hey Ricky...

PO musta replaced the stock steel tubing with them braided hoses on the front end.... following your advice and I wanna restore the integrity of the braking system on the front end to OEM standards.... how do I measure to determine the correct length for the tubing... with the suspension extended or collapsed????????????

I always have problems with the solid steel lines.  After three or four bumps, the steel cracks, and the fluid leaks out.  I have now fixed that problem.  I put solid steel inserts in the forks, in place of the front springs.  Now, the forks stay still, so the "solid steel lines" to the front calipers don't crack like they used to!  LOL!   

MP

[T.P.]

I always have problems with the solid steel lines.  After three or four bumps, the steel cracks, and the fluid leaks out.  I have now fixed that problem.  I put solid steel inserts in the forks, in place of the front springs.  Now, the forks stay still, so the "solid steel lines" to the front calipers don't crack like they used to!  LOL!   Grin

MP                        HEY MP,   Is that why you don't have any paint on the fronts of your bikes ? 


I hear if you spray the fronts of our bikes with spray on bed liner the brake fluid wont eat through the chrome.   see ya at PDC.       T.P.

[MP]

I always have problems with the solid steel lines.  After three or four bumps, the steel cracks, and the fluid leaks out.  I have now fixed that problem.  I put solid steel inserts in the forks, in place of the front springs.  Now, the forks stay still, so the "solid steel lines" to the front calipers don't crack like they used to!  LOL!   Grin

MP                        HEY MP,   Is that why you don't have any paint on the fronts of your bikes ? 


I hear if you spray the fronts of our bikes with spray on bed liner the brake fluid wont eat through the chrome.   see ya at PDC.       T.P.

Bring yourself a quart of that Rhino to PDC, and we will give it a try.  Anything to keep Ricky's Dot fluid off the front fender!  LOL

MP

[Ricky-D]

You guys are so behind the times.

I got me a big cement block tied to the ends of my brand new shiny tight wove stainless steel better than rubber, high dollar (look at em now!) brake lines.

And all I do, when I want to stop, is toss the block off the bike.

When the block wears down I'm gonna get me some of them new metallic sintered, ceramic blocks: I hear they are much better when it comes to stopping power.

I don't have to mess with that DOT whatever 3, 4, 5, 5.1 any more so don't blame your fenders on me.

***

[MP]

You guys are so behind the times.

I got me a big cement block tied to the ends of my brand new shiny tight wove stainless steel better than rubber, high dollar (look at em now!) brake lines.

And all I do, when I want to stop, is toss the block off the bike.

When the block wears down I'm gonna get me some of them new metallic sintered, ceramic blocks: I hear they are much better when it comes to stopping power.

I don't have to mess with that DOT whatever 3, 4, 5, 5.1 any more so don't blame your fenders on me.

***

     LOL

MP

[Rio Wil]

LOL.....I think you are all wet.....I just measured the diameter of my front brake lines (.400) with no pressure applied.  Squeezed the heck out of the front brake lever and guess what.... .400 still, no expansion of the diameter.  Looked at the rubber line during pressure.....no linear expansion either.  So what kind of rubber lines are you guys using.....surgical tubing.  Works great on sling shots!!  Its all marketing hype.....some one says my ball bearings are round to .0001 inch....someone else says theirs are round to .00001 and all the racers are winning using the rounder balls,,,,,ergo they are better and you coffee will even taste better with the rounder (read more expensive) balls. I suspect you gotta run hard enough to get rotors glowing red and calipers are boiling brake fluid to see any difference.  when you grab an occasional handfull of brakes the way most of us ride, IF, there is any difference, a firmer acting brake is probably a detriment rather than a benefit.....I suspect riding the dragon doesn't tax the stock brake systems on our bikes.....JMHO....got my asbestos underwear on....

[98valk]

LOL.....I think you are all wet.....I just measured the diameter of my front brake lines (.400) with no pressure applied.  Squeezed the heck out of the front brake lever and guess what.... .400 still, no expansion of the diameter.  Looked at the rubber line during pressure.....no linear expansion either.  So what kind of rubber lines are you guys using.....surgical tubing.  Works great on sling shots!!  Its all marketing hype.....some one says my ball bearings are round to .0001 inch....someone else says theirs are round to .00001 and all the racers are winning using the rounder balls,,,,,ergo they are better and you coffee will even taste better with the rounder (read more expensive) balls. I suspect you gotta run hard enough to get rotors glowing red and calipers are boiling brake fluid to see any difference.  when you grab an occasional handfull of brakes the way most of us ride, IF, there is any difference, a firmer acting brake is probably a detriment rather than a benefit.....I suspect riding the dragon doesn't tax the stock brake systems on our bikes.....JMHO....got my asbestos underwear on....

WOW!!

how did u measure the internal tubing that actually contains the brake fluid?  a web search will bring up much on the subject. there is a reason the all type of racers use teflon tube with stainless steel braid for a protective covering.
Or maybe u just discovered something new and will be next yrs winningest Nascar chief engineer.
all this has been addressed in detail many times on this board with links to other sites.
its ashame that the same things get re-hashed over and over again on this board because nobody whats to take the time to do little searching for themselves.
I'm done.

[Rio Wil]

how did u measure the internal tubing that actually contains the brake fluid?  a web search will bring up much on the subject. there is a reason the all type of racers use teflon tube with stainless steel braid for a protective covering.

So what kind of new physics have you  discovered that allows the i.d. of a tube to increase without the o.d. increasing under pressure also? In any case if the i.d increases under pressure and the o.d. does not (as I measured), then wrapping the o.d. with  braid or even with solid wrap of titanium won't make a owl's ass of difference....... and whats up with teflon, makes the brake fluid slide faster to improve the reaction time of the braking action?....thats a great new idea that wrapped up with marketing hype will make someone a M bucks..  I would bet some of the marketing folks on this list could come up with a very compelling ad to justify reduced fluid resistance brake lines are winning races all over the world......get yours today and become a winner....!  Or just buy some more bling and drink some more kool-aid and be happy..

[98valk]

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_stainlesssteel_Q&A.shtml

also DOT info for R-D

[The Anvil]

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_stainlesssteel_Q&A.shtml

also DOT info for R-D

I almost hate to even entertain this discussion anymore but I'll also point out that while the amount of bulge in any one single spot may be virtually immeasurable, the amount over the surface area of the entire line is enough to make a marked difference in feel. I've put braided lines on every bike I've owned that didn't already come with them and the result is always positive. Very small amounts in this regard can have a dramatic effect.

"IF, there is any difference, a firmer acting brake is probably a detriment rather than a benefit"

Another incorrect assumption. The benefit of braided lines is not that you can apply more force (you can generate plenty enough force to lock up both ends with stock lines) but rather that the lack of expansion is transferred back to the lever as enhanced feel (or "feedback"). 

[Rio Wil]

amount of bulge in any one single spot may be virtually immeasurable,

so a braided line that provides a virtually immeasurable improvement  over a non braided line that expands immeasurably is an improvement.....keep drinking the kool-aid

Actually, I was just having a bit of fun with this thread, but I do suspect the benefit of steel braided brake lines as related to our bikes is probably more psychological than reality and is better classiified as feel good bling.......so if it makes ya feel good.....braid up!

[MP]

What it amounts to is ss is slightly better.  However, like ALL rubber parts, the lines do need to be replaced as they age.  YOU can decide when.

At that time, why not put on a better line, that also looks better, for just a bit more $ ?

MP

[The Anvil]

amount of bulge in any one single spot may be virtually immeasurable,

so a braided line that provides a virtually immeasurable improvement  over a non braided line that expands immeasurably is an improvement.....keep drinking the kool-aid

Actually, I was just having a bit of fun with this thread, but I do suspect the benefit of steel braided brake lines as related to our bikes is probably more psychological than reality and is better classiified as feel good bling.......so if it makes ya feel good.....braid up!

When I say "virtually immeasurable" what theat means is that the amount it expands in any one spot is very, very minute, and since the material itself is pliable it can be extremely hard to get an accurate measurement and even then you may need a vernier micrometer. Conditions must be tightly controlled etc. But again, it's a small measurement in one spot but extrapolate that over a whole line and it's a lot of surface area

Look, I have no dog in the fight other than what I know from experience. I've put SS lines on my Katana, 954RR and ZX7 (as well as my DRZ400SM and my X1 came with them stock) and these were fully faired bikes so unless you got up close you could barely see the brake lines anyway so if it was bling I wanted I could have found better things to spend my money on. But I put them on because years of using them on motocross bikes proved to me that the cursed things work. If you think front end brake feel is important on pavement then try riding fast in the dirt with a vague front binder. And every bike I put them on showed a significant improvement in braking feel. Believe me or don't believe me. Is there a placebo effect? Perhaps, but it's small and it comes from knowing what to expect. I can tell you that due to my positive experiences I'd be more likely to notice a LACK of improvement in feel. That would be an even worth noting rather than the same ol' same ol'.

[Rio Wil]

may need a vernier micrometer.

this really tells me you drink the kool-aid and are hooked on the placebo effect

like i said.....if it makes you happy....braid it up....and enjoy your virtually immeasurable effects...

[The Anvil]

may need a vernier micrometer.

Yes, I doubt your tool box comes with more than a rubber ruler and blunted pair of scissors but you made the best of what you had I guess.

I'll drink the Kool Aid, you keep chowing on the lead paint chips Corky.