engine damage from starter

[lappdoggy]

First let me start out by saying I'm no mechanic so excuse my descriptions

Rode my 99 Interstate from Greensboro NC to Richmond VA. for a conference. The bike sat for two days until I was ready to head back home. I hit the starter and there was a loud metallic bang. I looked all over trying figure the noise out. I hit the starter again and could hear the starter spinning so I think great the starter is shot. No previous issues in the 3 months I've owned it. After calling dealers and shops I was told I could push start it in second. I did and rode it back to Greensboro about 180 miles. Pushed it again when I needed gas.
Ordered a starter and pushed it again today to take it to my bike mechanic. He calls me 10 min after dropping it off and tell me my starter is fine but the housing and many of the gears that turn in the housing are broken. I dont know the names of all but what he showed me was this:
If you remove the starter and look inside the small gear directly in front is missing half the teeth and the inside of the housing to the right has broken and is missing about a 1/2 inch piece.
He says he has never seen anything like this. He is now pulling the motor to remove these gears and find  another housing. has any seen this before?

[ptgb]

Well, you unfortuately have met the bane of Valkyrie owner existence... the dreaded hydrolock.

Long story short... fuel gets past a malfunctioning petcock, leaks past a faulty carb float and fills the cylinder. Press the start button and the fuel compresses in the cylinder and the weakest link breaks... usually (pretty much always) the starter gears.

Do a search on "hydrolock" here and you will find much information... none of it good, sorry.

Good luck and to make the situation worse, if you have a dealer fix it... bring your checkbook.

I cringe when these posts come up on the board  

[gordonv]

Just one other note.

Push the starter the first time, clunk, it siezes.

DON'T PUSH a second time, or CLUNK! Parts break.

Other than that, the above is correct.

Now for the secondary fix. What caused it to happen? A stuck float level in teh carb AND a leaking petcock. Like already mentioned, search for the Hydrolock topic and and you'll find lots of info on it.

[John Schmidt]

Many times on this forum. It's caused by hydrolock....raw fuel leaked into the combustion chamber while it was sitting. You hit the starter and the engine will turn over to the point where the flooded cylinder tries to compress the liquid....which it can't. The engine locks up and bang goes the starter gears. The mech. is correct, it involves removing the engine and pulling the rear cover. Then removing the broken gears and associated loose pieces.  Install new, install the engine.

Next, you need to determine the cause, which is often a bad petcock. The OEM petcock appears to be the weak link in the fuel delivery chain. You can either rebuild it or replace it, many of us use a Pingle petcock in place of the OEM, it's simply a better made unit. The other possibility/cause may be a leaking needle valve in one of the carbs.

If you hadn't tried to continue starting the bike and pulled the plugs, you would have seen raw fuel shoot out 10-12' from one of the cylinders. But, too late now. Good luck on the repairs, you're probably looking at over $1500 if done by a shop.

[ptgb]

Let me add.... the mechanic that fixes this should also deal with the faulty (read: stuck) float as well.

[Pete]

Let me add.... the mechanic that fixes this should also deal with the faulty (read: stuck) float as well.

+1 and  check and clean the (rusty? or dirty)  gas tank that helped  contaminate the float valve.

[The Anvil]

Also, someone posted a neat and easy way to test for hydro lock without pulling plugs. Put it in 4th gear and then push it a ways I think?

[Patrick]

Yep, the damage was from hitting the starter button at least once too often due to a  fuel-locked cylinder.. Tap the starter button, if you hear that dreaded ' clank ' then don't touch it again until the cylinders are cleared.. Don't go into shock when you see the repair bill.. There is a lot of info in the archives, or, there should be..

[CajunRider]

While you're in there fixing things (or even if everything is working well and nothing needs fixing)...

Install a fuel filter!!!!! 

9 times out of 10, a stuck carb float is just trash in the fuel. 

[stude31]

Does it look like this...:  This is looking in where the starter goes...






I sent you a pm.

Joe.

[stude31]

Lapp...

Saw this on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/00-Honda-Valkyrie-GL1500-1500-TRANSMISSION-COVER-/200664823121?hash=item2eb88e3551&item=200664823121&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

[Candeeman]

Same thing happened to me. I just got the bike back from the dealer after getting the carbs redone. Three weeks later....Hydrolock ! Number 5 was full of fuel. The bike starts and runs smooth but when starting it makes a rough growling sound. I guess something is messed up inside. Pulled the starter today and it spins smoothly when hooked to a battery. Guess I'll have to drop the engine myself !!! Dealer wants 8hrs @ $76/hr plus parts, plus new Petcock.

[Tim H]

You all have got me worried this is going to happen to me someday.  Should I go ahead and replace the petcock?  I've seen an electric solenoid that you put in line with the fuel system that switches off when the bike is off.  Anyone use that or suggest it.  Anything preventative I can do I'd rather do than than the alternative.

[Chiefy]

You all have got me worried this is going to happen to me someday.  Should I go ahead and replace the petcock? I've seen an electric solenoid that you put in line with the fuel system that switches off when the bike is off.  Anyone use that or suggest it.  Anything preventative I can do I'd rather do than than the alternative.

Your call.  We see hydrolock posts here too frequently.  If you're worried, you should weigh the cost of doing the change out over peace of mind.

Used to think the Pingel/Danmark mod was over-kill.  After reading enough of these posts, I'm not so sure of that any longer.  

[ptgb]

You all have got me worried this is going to happen to me someday.  Should I go ahead and replace the petcock?  I've seen an electric solenoid that you put in line with the fuel system that switches off when the bike is off.  Anyone use that or suggest it.  Anything preventative I can do I'd rather do than than the alternative.

Got a Pingel petcock and a Dan Marc electric shutoff. Can't say it has prevented a hydrolock from happening. Can't say it helps me sleep better at night. Can say that I feel a little more confident when I hit the starter button though.

Same setup going on the wife's trike over the winter...

[toetruck21]

If he installs the Dan Marc shutoff, does he need to also replace the petcock with a Pingel one?  Or will the OEM work fine with the Dan Marc electric shutoff?

[Patrick]

I still feel there is no guarantee against the dreaded fuel-lock.. But, I think the best prevention is a Pingle [ and learn to use it] , in-line filter and tapping the starter button.. If you ever hear the 'clank', don't touch the starter button until the sparklers are removed and the cylinders cleared.. This problem may not happen very often, but, it only takes once to get your full attention.. Its not  a matter of if it'll happen, but when..

[Hoser]

Same thing happened to me. I just got the bike back from the dealer after getting the carbs redone. Three weeks later....Hydrolock ! Number 5 was full of fuel. The bike starts and runs smooth but when starting it makes a rough growling sound. I guess something is messed up inside. Pulled the starter today and it spins smoothly when hooked to a battery. Guess I'll have to drop the engine myself !!! Dealer wants 8hrs @ $76/hr plus parts, plus new Petcock.

If the dealer rebuilt your carbs properly, it woukd not have hydrolocked, a carb float must malfunction before gas can get in a cylinder.  Most likely he did not rebuild the carbs properly, if at all. I assume he removed the gas tank to access the carbs, he should have caught the petcock then. If he did not remove the tank, he did not rebuild the carbs.  Offer him a chance to make it right, if not, it's small claims court time.  Hoser

[stude31]

Same thing happened to me. I just got the bike back from the dealer after getting the carbs redone. Three weeks later....Hydrolock ! Number 5 was full of fuel. The bike starts and runs smooth but when starting it makes a rough growling sound. I guess something is messed up inside. Pulled the starter today and it spins smoothly when hooked to a battery. Guess I'll have to drop the engine myself !!! Dealer wants 8hrs @ $76/hr plus parts, plus new Petcock.

If the dealer rebuilt your carbs properly, it woukd not have hydrolocked, a carb float must malfunction before gas can get in a cylinder.  Most likely he did not rebuild the carbs properly, if at all. I assume he removed the gas tank to access the carbs, he should have caught the petcock then. If he did not remove the tank, he did not rebuild the carbs.  Offer him a chance to make it right, if not, it's small claims court time.  Hoser

Careful Hoser,
Your stepping in on grounds of assumption.  On that note they could have done the carbs correctly but maybe the tank had some residue and floated down and through the petcock and caused a float to stick.  It doesn't take much for that to happen and it wouldn't be the carbs fault.  Or a piece of the fuel line came loose from sliding it back on the petcock and got lodged in the carb.  Who knows it's just that there are so many variables that play into this that one can't assume fault on a shop.  Trust me I work on many bikes and you can't always prevent a failure.  I had a u-joint go out after me inspecting it in march all looked good then four months later I am stranded.  Things fail you can only do your best to try and limit the failures. 

@Candeeman, if you have questions about fixing your bike send me a Pm and I can try and help you since it is fresh in my mind    You might update your profile so we know where you live someone might be willing to help if you are close to them.

Re: inline filter, someone else may no more about this or have experience with it but I believe you have to be careful about putting an inline filter due to reducing flow of fuel to the carbs causing the bowls to drain out on full throttle.   If you take care of your petcock it will take care of you   A pingle isn't necessarily a good fix if you forget to leave the petcock to the on position then you are still in jeopardy of a float stuck and could cause a HL. 

Stude31

[Hoser]

True enough, Stude, guess I did a mini-rant, should have used possibly, instead of did not.  Still think some "professionals" are not as good as our amateurs when it comes to our unique motorcycles.  Hoser   

[Chiefy]

If he installs the Dan Marc shutoff, does he need to also replace the petcock with a Pingel one?  Or will the OEM work fine with the Dan Marc electric shutoff?

It will work fine, but if you leave the OEM petcock, there is still a path to hydrolock via gas leaking down the vacuum line into carb 6.

[valkyriemc]

In addition to the above since your gonna be into it one way or the other, take that tank and douche it out. There's crud in there. It's small but it's there.

[Farther]

But, I think the best prevention is a Pingle [ and learn to use it] , in-line filter and tapping the starter button..

Or routine preventative maintenance of the OEM petcock.  Don't rule out a belly tank too but then you might be introducing another weak link in the form of the fuel pump.

[FLAVALK]

WOW, hate to hear this again. For the advantage of newbies, the "Hydrolock" issue should be thoroughtly addressed in Shop Talk. This as been re-hashed soooooooooooooooooo many times.

Sorry to hear this happened to you. The cost of parts is realively inexpesive, it's the labor that eats your lunch 

[John U.]

quote Stude31
"Re: inline filter, someone else may no more about this or have experience with it but I believe you have to be careful about putting an inline filter due to reducing flow of fuel to the carbs causing the bowls to drain out on full throttle."

You need a hi-flow fuel filter to avoid starvation. I hear some have used a Goldwing filter. Golan makes a cleanable filter that claims to filter to 6 microns IIRC. I've been using two of their filters for a few years (on two bikes) and have had no starvation problems at high speed or full throttle. They are not 7 dollar filters but you won't need to buy another; unless you buy another bike.   

[stude31]

quote Stude31
"Re: inline filter, someone else may no more about this or have experience with it but I believe you have to be careful about putting an inline filter due to reducing flow of fuel to the carbs causing the bowls to drain out on full throttle."

You need a hi-flow fuel filter to avoid starvation. I hear some have used a Goldwing filter. Golan makes a cleanable filter that claims to filter to 6 microns IIRC. I've been using two of their filters for a few years (on two bikes) and have had no starvation problems at high speed or full throttle. They are not 7 dollar filters but you won't need to buy another; unless you buy another bike.    

I had hoped that someone would chime n and thank you.  I might even give that a try. 

Have a good day John.U.

Stude31

[lappdoggy]

I just wanted to thank everybody for the response and advice. It has been informative and has saved me a few $. I agree that this forum seems to have more knowledge and experience than many dealers and mechanics.

As a newbie on the Valkyrie rest assured that I'm doing quite a lot of reading of old post to educate myself on this wonderful machine. I'm still kicking myself for not doing it sooner and possibly saving myself and the bike a lot of grief.

Thanks again to All!!

[BIG--T]

Has anyone ever heard of a GW even though with just 2 carbs hydrolock?

[Red Diamond]

I thought there was some dicussion earlier that involved not pulling the engine to repair the starter gears. Can''t remember how far back.

[GOOSE]

IT SEEMS LIKE THE GUY YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WAS FROM HAWAII.

[lucky_1_chris]

Has anyone ever heard of a GW even though with just 2 carbs hydrolock?

If I remember what I've read correctly, it was an issue, and a service bulletin was issued on how to correct the problem with the GW.

[BIG--T]

Has anyone ever heard of a GW even though with just 2 carbs hydrolock?

If I remember what I've read correctly, it was an issue, and a service bulletin was issued on how to correct the problem with the GW.

Ummm interesting, I wonder if the correction could be applied to the Valk too?

[BIG--T]

I thought there was some dicussion earlier that involved not pulling the engine to repair the starter gears. Can''t remember how far back.

There sure was but i can't remember who it was  or exactly how he said to do. Sure would make life easier!

[stude31]

I thought there was some dicussion earlier that involved not pulling the engine to repair the starter gears. Can''t remember how far back.

There sure was but i can't remember who it was  or exactly how he said to do. Sure would make life easier!

I thought the same thing Big-T but after repairing one for a buddy pulling the engine is only eight bolts when you have the carbs off, crash bars, off and exhaust out.  It really isn't that difficult and while you have it out you will be able to do a few more maintenance things that aren't hard while motor is out.  You will have to drain the coolant before removing the engine (one of the most common neglected services on our bikes).  You can inspect the alternator (don't need to pull it out when dropping the motor but once motor is out is a piece of cake to remove and check the brushes, thermostat, clutch plates and springs, timing belts.  It does have it's advantages if you look at it that way.  I set the motor up at bench level and was easy on the back to fix the motor. 

I was one to freak out about pulling the motor but I think that I had somewhere around 3hr from everything on the tourer to engine on the workbench.  So don't think dropping the motor is complicated.  I can tell you that if you have a scissor jack (I use the one out of my honda civic), and put it under the middle of the engine and use that to lower the motor down and then use it to raise the motor up into the bike when you are done works like a charm but you will need to have another person assist you in this so you can stabilize the motor as it is being lowered or raised.  I think we had the motor back in in 20 mins.  (Once we figured out how to get the jack back under the motor, we walked it up on two by fours until it was high enough to slide the jack under it).

Also, drain the engine oil out prior to dropping the motor...don't ask me how I know this

When you are ordering parts be sure and spend the money on two new nuts one for the mainshaft and the other that holds the birdcage of the clutch on the bike.  Both of these have to be torque 137ft lbs (one other has to be torqued in the 90's) but there are two nuts that you have to put a notch in to hold them in place well when you take the old ones out you bugger up the threads and you don't want to use that one again if it is really bad.  Unlike some nuts they are not threaded all the way to where you notch the nut but these are. 

Alright back to tearing carbs down rebuilding them 

will keep watching this thread!!   

[Chiefy]

I thought there was some dicussion earlier that involved not pulling the engine to repair the starter gears. Can''t remember how far back.

There sure was but i can't remember who it was  or exactly how he said to do. Sure would make life easier!

Our local dealer showed Ricoman that it could be done.  Don't recall how much detail he went into here about it though.  May want to search his posts.

[Valkpilot]

Has anyone ever heard of a GW even though with just 2 carbs hydrolock?

The 1500 Goldwing uses a fuel pump.  The Valk is gravity fed. 

[BIG--T]

I thought there was some dicussion earlier that involved not pulling the engine to repair the starter gears. Can''t remember how far back.

There sure was but i can't remember who it was  or exactly how he said to do. Sure would make life easier!

I thought the same thing Big-T but after repairing one for a buddy pulling the engine is only eight bolts when you have the carbs off, crash bars, off and exhaust out.  It really isn't that difficult and while you have it out you will be able to do a few more maintenance things that aren't hard while motor is out.  You will have to drain the coolant before removing the engine (one of the most common neglected services on our bikes).  You can inspect the alternator (don't need to pull it out when dropping the motor but once motor is out is a piece of cake to remove and check the brushes, thermostat, clutch plates and springs, timing belts.  It does have it's advantages if you look at it that way.  I set the motor up at bench level and was easy on the back to fix the motor. 

I was one to freak out about pulling the motor but I think that I had somewhere around 3hr from everything on the tourer to engine on the workbench.  So don't think dropping the motor is complicated.  I can tell you that if you have a scissor jack (I use the one out of my honda civic), and put it under the middle of the engine and use that to lower the motor down and then use it to raise the motor up into the bike when you are done works like a charm but you will need to have another person assist you in this so you can stabilize the motor as it is being lowered or raised.  I think we had the motor back in in 20 mins.  (Once we figured out how to get the jack back under the motor, we walked it up on two by fours until it was high enough to slide the jack under it).

Also, drain the engine oil out prior to dropping the motor...don't ask me how I know this

When you are ordering parts be sure and spend the money on two new nuts one for the mainshaft and the other that holds the birdcage of the clutch on the bike.  Both of these have to be torque 137ft lbs (one other has to be torqued in the 90's) but there are two nuts that you have to put a notch in to hold them in place well when you take the old ones out you bugger up the threads and you don't want to use that one again if it is really bad.  Unlike some nuts they are not threaded all the way to where you notch the nut but these are. 

Alright back to tearing carbs down rebuilding them 

will keep watching this thread!!   

Wow that doesn't sound bad at all...I just hope I don't have to find out! Thanks for sharing I'm going to bookmark this.

[BIG--T]

Has anyone ever heard of a GW even though with just 2 carbs hydrolock?

The 1500 Goldwing uses a fuel pump.  The Valk is gravity fed. 

Now that's an idea. I wonder if anyones tried it?

[Farther]

R&M belly tank for the Valkyrie also uses a fuel pump.

[BIG--T]

R&M belly tank for the Valkyrie also uses a fuel pump.

Farther wouldn't that eliminate hydrolock ?