Let me see your papers

[WamegoRob]

No.. not an immigration article:

""If you're out walking, we're going to stop you, ask why you're out walking, check for your ID.""

http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/articles/2012/12/15/top_story/doc50cbbb312e241511092932.txt

[BF]

What kind of crime and how much of it are they experiencing that they feel compelled to go to such extremes? 

[pouch]

it worked good in the early 1961 in san deigo. you best be in a shortest line to a point. then i called it a police state but i felt safe. pised me off but i felt safe.

[Psychotic Bovine]

This is still the United States of America, right?

[3fan4life]

it worked good in the early 1961 in san deigo. you best be in a shortest line to a point. then i called it a police state but i felt safe. pised me off but i felt safe.

NOTHING about police in SWAT gear carrying AR 15's makes me feel safe.

[Chrisj CMA]

I think its great!  In a high crime area, I wouldnt be just walking around.  But, if I was and a cop stopped me to ask what I was doing, Id tell him, and Id be on my way.......good for them, if it gets some dirtbags off the street I say a few innocent people being questioned is a small price to pay........

[tank_post142]

yes! what chris said! and if you own firearms your house should be open for search at anytime to check your collection if there is a gun crime in the area. it's not unreasonable or even flirting with unconstitutional. after all it's for the safety of the citizenship on a whole so if a few people are are treated like slave or property so what?

[tank_post142]

hey ! look here: if these a55holes are Baptists we need to start checking out all Christian as possible subversives !

http://now.msn.com/anonymous-hacks-westboro-baptist-church

[3fan4life]

I think its great!  In a high crime area, I wouldnt be just walking around.  But, if I was and a cop stopped me to ask what I was doing, Id tell him, and Id be on my way.......good for them, if it gets some dirtbags off the street I say a few innocent people being questioned is a small price to pay........

I seriously doubt that I'd be walking there either.

However, Simply walking down the street is NOT a crime and no citizen should have to explain why they are there.

It is the whole slippery slope thing and quite frankly it sounds very much like Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

[ricoman]

I think its great!  In a high crime area, I wouldnt be just walking around.  But, if I was and a cop stopped me to ask what I was doing, Id tell him, and Id be on my way.......good for them, if it gets some dirtbags off the street I say a few innocent people being questioned is a small price to pay........

I seriously doubt that I'd be walking there either.

However, Simply walking down the street is NOT a crime and no citizen should have to explain why they are there.

It is the whole slippery slope thing and quite frankly it sounds very much like Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

in the mid-60's I went to school in Boston.
One night (before 10pm) 4 or 5 of us went to a friends house in East Boston to cram for an exam (statistics class maybe). We parked the car and within a half a block we were asked at least 3 times "watcha doin' here?" by the folks sitting on their front stoops. They were residents taking care of their neighborhood.
We don't have that anymore, so we now get "high crime areas" because people quit taking care of theselves and their own.  And, it is now somehow wrong to even try to do that?

[Chrisj CMA]

I think its great!  In a high crime area, I wouldnt be just walking around.  But, if I was and a cop stopped me to ask what I was doing, Id tell him, and Id be on my way.......good for them, if it gets some dirtbags off the street I say a few innocent people being questioned is a small price to pay........

I seriously doubt that I'd be walking there either.

However, Simply walking down the street is NOT a crime and no citizen should have to explain why they are there.

It is the whole slippery slope thing and quite frankly it sounds very much like Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

Its not a slippery slope......its taking care of crime.  I am sick and tired of having to be so politically correct that if someone gets offended or inconvenianced in any way they can sue or protest and there is sympathy for their pathetic cause.

The Government needs to be made smaller and we dont need a federal agency to make it their business what we are doing, but local law inforcement should be able to stop anyone they need to if there is a reasonable question to ask.  If they get good answers you just go on your way....if you are a criminal and are doing something wrong they should be able to stop you without getting sued for illegal search and seizure BS......take the handcuffs off the cops and put them on more crooks!

[fubar606]

it's all fine and dandy till they start walking around the high end neighborhood telling you that its the law and you need to comply. if you give in and they get a foot hold it will ALWAYS bite you in the arss

[Daniel Meyer]

Since they are heavily armed, yes, I would show them ID.

If they ask me what I'm doing, my answer would be along the lines of, "Walking. Are you retarded or what?"

[czuch]

Google the "Retarded Policeman".
He's on youtube and just as funny as it gets.
"Casual Friday".

[Willow]

hey ! look here: if these a55holes are Baptists we need to start checking out all Christian as possible subversives !

http://now.msn.com/anonymous-hacks-westboro-baptist-church

I understand your sarcasm and the point is well made.  To set the record straight, the Westboro Baptist Church has attached "Baptist" to their name but they are not associated with the Southern Baptists nor any other Baptist convention.
 

Its not a slippery slope......its taking care of crime.  I am sick and tired of having to be so politically correct that if someone gets offended or inconvenianced in any way they can sue or protest and there is sympathy for their pathetic cause.

...take the handcuffs off the cops and put them on more crooks!

Why not?  It's only the Constitution.   

And it is a most slippery slope. 

[3fan4life]

I think its great!  In a high crime area, I wouldnt be just walking around.  But, if I was and a cop stopped me to ask what I was doing, Id tell him, and Id be on my way.......good for them, if it gets some dirtbags off the street I say a few innocent people being questioned is a small price to pay........

I seriously doubt that I'd be walking there either.

However, Simply walking down the street is NOT a crime and no citizen should have to explain why they are there.

It is the whole slippery slope thing and quite frankly it sounds very much like Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

Its not a slippery slope......its taking care of crime.  I am sick and tired of having to be so politically correct that if someone gets offended or inconvenianced in any way they can sue or protest and there is sympathy for their pathetic cause.

The Government needs to be made smaller and we dont need a ferderal agency to make it their business what we are doing, but local law inforcement should be able to stop anyone they need to if there is a reasonable question to ask.  If they get good answers you just go on your way....if you are a criminal and are doing something wrong they should be able to stop you without getting sued for illegal search and seizure BS......take the handcuffs off the cops and put them on more crooks!

Chris,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

You see it as reasonable................ I DO NOT.



IMHO

IF a person were to be observed by the police doing something that is of a suspicious nature, then certainly it is OK for them to be questioned about their activities, reason for being there, etc.

However, the simple act of walking down a public street should NOT be considered a suspicious act.



For example,

I live on a rural road and it is rare for someone to be walking past the house at night but it isn't unheard of.

Sometimes the dog brings it to our attention that someone is walking by in the dark.

Often I will tell the dog to stop barking and I might observe their actions.

Not once have I considered calling the police for someone that was simply passing by.

Now if their behavior were to be or become suspicious I might consider doing so.

[Chrisj CMA]

We have a street in our town....during the day its just a kinda run down area of town.  You could probably walk through there no problem.  At night its well known for drugs and prostitution.  If I chose to walk down that street (just for fun) at night and a cop driving by DIDNT stop me to ask what I was doing I would feel like turning him in for deriliction of duty. 

[3fan4life]

We have a street in our town....during the day its just a kinda run down area of town.  You could probably walk through there no problem.  At night its well known for drugs and prostitution.  If I chose to walk down that street (just for fun) at night and a cop driving by DIDNT stop me to ask what I was doing I would feel like turning him in for deriliction of duty. 

Again Chris,

We are NOT going to see EYE to EYE on this.

In my oppinion Simply Walking down a public street should not subject a person to harrassment or detainment and nothing can be stated here that will change that.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Chrisj CMA]

We have a street in our town....during the day its just a kinda run down area of town.  You could probably walk through there no problem.  At night its well known for drugs and prostitution.  If I chose to walk down that street (just for fun) at night and a cop driving by DIDNT stop me to ask what I was doing I would feel like turning him in for deriliction of duty.  

Again Chris,

We are NOT going to see EYE to EYE on this.

In my oppinion Simply Walking down a public street should not subject a person to harrassment or detainment and nothing can be stated here that will change that.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

ok, agreed....no problem 

[BF]

Not sure how I'd feel about it.  

I think I know the street Jeff is talking about.  Don't think I'd even drive down there during daylight, much walk around there.  

I walk for exercise usually at a walking/jogging path in a city park not far from my home.  It's a great place to walk during the daylight, but I won't walk there after dark.  

If I walk after dark, it's through and around the neighborhood.  My area of town is a nice enough area with mostly middle class homes and with upper class homes along the waterfront.  

Don't know how I'd feel about walking police patrols, but my first thought would be that it would make me feel comfortable knowing their out there protecting me and mine.  

However, depending on the quality of the encounter, I might feel totally different if approached while out exercising simply by walking though my neighorhood alone at night.  

When I walk at night, I have my cell phone with me and an aluminum fish bat for protection (mostly for unleashed dogs, but for whatever).  I never carry my wallet or ID with me. 

Wonder what the cops would think about my fish bat?  

[fudgie]

You guys are nuts!  Not me. They can come up and ask all they want. Thats why we have the 4th & 5th Amendment. Ever here of Terry stops?

Sir can you talk to us and show us your ID?

Why, did I do something wrong?

No, we want to check your background.

No thanks.

Sir we need your ID.

Am I being detained?

No. We just want to talk to you.

Ok, you folks have a nice day! (and I walk)

[Chrisj CMA]

Not sure how I'd feel about it. 

I think I know the street Jeff is talking about.  Don't think I'd even drive down there during daylight, much walk around there.   

I walk for exercise usually at a walking/jogging path in a city park not far from my home.  It's a great place to walk during the daylight, but I won't walk there after dark. 

If I walk after dark, it's through and around the neighborhood.  My area of town is a nice enough area with mostly middle class homes and with upper class homes along the waterfront. 

Don't know how I'd feel about walking police patrols, but my first thought would be that it would make me feel comfortable knowing their out there protecting me and mine. 

However, depending on the quality of the encounter, I might feel totally different if approached while out exercising simply by walking though my neighorhood alone at night. 

When I walk at night, I have my cell phone with me and an aluminum fish bat for protection (mostly for unleashed dogs, but for whatever).  I never carry my wallet or ID with me. 

Wonder what the cops would think about my fish bat? 

As long as the bat wasnt concealled without a CC license you should be fine.  There isint a bat ban that I know of yet, but if it was concealled it could be defined as a Billie Club and to carry that concealled you have the have the CC license on you.

[sugerbear]

You guys are nuts!  Not me. They can come up and ask all they want. Thats why we have the 4th & 5th Amendment. Ever here of Terry stops?

Sir can you talk to us and show us your ID?

Why, did I do something wrong?

No, we want to check your background.

No thanks.

Sir we need your ID.

Am I being detained?

No. We just want to talk to you.

Ok, you folks have a nice day! (and I walk)

sir, are you refusing to show us some ID?

you: yes i am.

sir: you are NOW being detained until we find out who you are and why you won't show us some ID.  what are you trying to hid? 

[MP]

Chris:

I like a lot you say, but I disagree on this one.  We fought a WAR, The Revolutanary War, to put a STOP to actions just like this.

It may be messy at times, but the Constitution should be respected.

If they arrest me for not showing ID, they better have a reason other than fishing, or they are OUTSIDE the law.

We have fought a number of wars to remain free, no use giving it up voluntarily!

To paraphrase, One who gives up freedom, for security, has neither!

MP

[PAVALKER]

You guys are nuts!   Not me. They can come up and ask all they want. Thats why we have the 4th & 5th Amendment. Ever here of Terry stops?

Sir can you talk to us and show us your ID?

Why, did I do something wrong?

No, we want to check your background.

No thanks.

Sir we need your ID.

Am I being detained?

No. We just want to talk to you.

Ok, you folks have a nice day! (and I walk)

We need a "like" button.....      I agree.    Government and police/swat have expanded way too much at taxpayer expense and the civil liberties/rights of the law abiding citizen are infringed.   And look at how many innocent kids and teachers lives were spared as a result of their efforts and fire power.

[Chrisj CMA]

Chris:

I like a lot you say, but I disagree on this one.  We fought a WAR, The Revolutanary War, to put a STOP to actions just like this.

It may be messy at times, but the Constitution should be respected.

If they arrest me for not showing ID, they better have a reason other than fishing, or they are OUTSIDE the law.

We have fought a number of wars to remain free, no use giving it up voluntarily!

To paraphrase, One who gives up freedom, for security, has neither!

MP

Maybe you have taken what I said wrongly.  In a known high crime area I think local law inforcement should be able to simply ask me what Im up to if Im somewhere where theres nothing to do but be getting into trouble.  If Im not wanted for a crime and Im doing nothing wrong they should warn me of the danger and if I still want to stroll through there, I should be allowed.  Im just saying there are too many protections for the criminal is all.

Im not saying they should arrest me, detain me or accuse me unjustly.

I have been pulled over on a Texas highway just because the car I was driving was riding low in the back.  The answer for why was that people running drugs had cars riding low in the back.  We had parachutes in the trunk because we were on our way to a skydiving trip.  I didnt mind one bit being inconvenianced for a few minutes....

I think freedom is made stronger when crime is under control

[Willow]

Apparently some of us didn't read the article.

Should an individual not produce identification, Stovall said his officers would not back down. Individuals who do not produce identification when asked could be charged with obstructing a governmental operation, according to Stovall.

That puts Fudgie in jail.

"They may not be doing anything but walking their dog," he said. "But they're going to have to prove it."

I know the presumption of innocence applies primarily to the courts, but I really don't like the sound of that. 

[steve 3054]

It sounds to me like common  sense has been left out of this topic...Chris J is on point...the rest...  not so much...if a neighborhood  is so bad that the police have decided that there needs to be armed foot patrol...I done...I would bet the neighbors in the area welcome the police so they can safely walk the same side walks.  A lot of people on this forum carry and have stated they would pop a cap in many a persons ass...the police are there for the weak.  BF...why not carry I.D.?  What if you fall over with a hearth attack ......MP   WOW.....3fan4life,time of night IS a reason for suspicion... Why call the police? Why don't you go check on people who come by your house late at night???
WOW is all I can say, if any of you lived in this area I guarantee you would welcome the intervention.   And if all of you that carry would police you own neighborhoods maybe this would not be taking place and we could take the streets back from the criminals........flame suit on... fire away

[3fan4life]

3fan4life,time of night IS a reason for suspicion... Why call the police? Why don't you go check on people who come by your house late at night???

It is very simple:

As long as they are simply walking past, utilizing the public right of way, they AREN'T breaking any laws.

[BF]

It sounds to me like common  sense has been left out of this topic...Chris J is on point...the rest...  not so much...if a neighborhood  is so bad that the police have decided that there needs to be armed foot patrol...I done...I would bet the neighbors in the area welcome the police so they can safely walk the same side walks.  A lot of people on this forum carry and have stated they would pop a cap in many a persons ass...the police are there for the weak.  BF...why not carry I.D.?  What if you fall over with a hearth attack ......MP   WOW.....3fan4life,time of night IS a reason for suspicion... Why call the police? Why don't you go check on people who come by your house late at night???
WOW is all I can say, if any of you lived in this area I guarantee you would welcome the intervention.   And if all of you that carry would police you own neighborhoods maybe this would not be taking place and we could take the streets back from the criminals........flame suit on... fire away

Primarily for convience.  I have my cell in case I need it for emergency, but if I was to stroke out on the ground, my cell has my all of my ICE info on it with my wife's numbers, both my son's numbers in there, both my sister's numbers as well as my doctor's number. 

My ID just has my name and address on it.  My cell has everything on it. 

[BamaDrifter64]

Since they are heavily armed, yes, I would show them ID.

If they ask me what I'm doing, my answer would be along the lines of, "Walking. Are you retarded or what?"

Daniel,

Even though those AR-15s have a polymer stock, they still hurt when they smack you between the eyes...just FYI....

Dave

[tank_post142]

cool, were going to let FEAR of a criminal act by a law enforcement officer eliminate the constitution. what are you going to say when they kick in your door because you might be doing something illegal in there?

[Serk]

This sounds like an expansion of NYC's famous "Stop and Frisk" program, taken to the next level...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_stop-and-frisk_program

Where are we going, and how did I get in this handbasket??

[Chrisj CMA]

Im thinking one reason so many might feel this idea of "interviewing" everyone out and about in a known high crime area is a bad thing is because of an underlying distrust of the government and law enforcement.  I agree, we have a problem with the government over stepping its authority and we have problems sometimes with law enforcement not sticking to the parameters of the scope of their job or assigned operations. 

That being said, any push to tackle crime in any sort of "special operation" has the likelyhood to go awry.  However, that shouldnt mean there shouldnt be attempts to snuff out the bad guys.  We the people just need to be ever vigilant and call "them" out when they over step. 

Right now this federal government needs major calling out, but they still have a job to do and one is to make laws that ultimately make our country a safer place.  If the bad guys take badness up a few levels then we need to match their intensity with strategies that may actually get them off the streets. 

I like profiling, I like good old fashioned bown shoe work.  I dont mind being questioned if I fit a profile of someone that may be a bad guy, I dont see that as an infringement of my rights. 

I truley believe we have taken the notion of OUR RIGHTS a bit far, on the other hand the law sometimes takes their license to interrupt our rights too lightly and do too much......

got to find the balance

[3fan4life]

Im thinking one reason so many might feel this idea of "interviewing" everyone out and about in a known high crime area is a bad thing is because of an underlying distrust of the government and law enforcement.  I agree, we have a problem with the government over stepping its authority and we have problems sometimes with law enforcement not sticking to the parameters of the scope of their job or assigned operations.  

That being said, any push to tackle crime in any sort of "special operation" has the likelyhood to go awry.  However, that shouldnt mean there shouldnt be attempts to snuff out the bad guys.  We the people just need to be ever vigilant and call "them" out when they over step.  

Right now this federal government needs major calling out, but they still have a job to do and one is to make laws that ultimately make our country a safer place.  If the bad guys take badness up a few levels then we need to match their intensity with strategies that may actually get them off the streets.  

I like profiling, I like good old fashioned bown shoe work.  I dont mind being questioned if I fit a profile of someone that may be a bad guy, I dont see that as an infringement of my rights.  

I truley believe we have taken the notion of OUR RIGHTS a bit far, on the other hand the law sometimes takes their license to interrupt our rights too lightly and do too much......

got to find the balance

BINGO

And if you think that we don't trust the government, can you imagine the lack of trust among even the "Good" people living in those high crime areas.

Then put the officers in SWAT gear and patrolling with AR 15's and well you get the picture.


I can tell you what does work.

In the late 1980's and early 1990's the city where I worked EMS had several high crime areas. The "Knife and Gun Club" was very active there. Shootings and stabbings were way too common. Even some of the EMS people were wearing bullet proof vests on duty.

Through a government grant the police began a COPE (Community Oriented Police Effort) program. This took the officers out of their cars and put them on foot and later bicycles in those high crime areas. They weren't in SWAT gear and they weren't carrying AR 15's.

It didn't happen overnight but the crime rate in those areas went down. The neighborhoods were cleaned up and became better places to live. This happened because the residents got to know the officers and they began to trust them. Many times the officers would be told by the residents when someone (usually an outsider) was up to no good. The bottom line was that most of the residents didn't want to live in constant fear either.  

Recently, budget cuts ended the COPE program in those communities and guess what ? The crime rates are going back up. The knife and gun club is back in business and business is good.

If you want people to change you can't intimidate them into it.

It's kind of like how you can't lead someone to the cross by beating them over the head with the Bible. It works much better if you lead them there in love.    

[Chrisj CMA]

hey 3fan.  I am enjoying our converation.  We arent that far apart.  However in the old days the gun and knife club had knives and probably .22's or .38's and no fancy ammo, no the cops didnt need gear.

I think its much different.  SWAT gear probably most matches what some bad guys are brining to the party.  I am saying its kinda the same just on a different level.

Im not with you on this one though

It's kind of like how you can't lead someone to the cross by beating them over the head with the Bible. It works much better if you lead them there in love.

While I agree Bible thumping is no way to lead someone to Christ.  I dont agree we should love that drug dealer, pimp, robber, rapist (whatever) into changing.  I think we should love them enough to go where they are, beat them at their game, shackle them up and put them behind bars quick fast and in a hurry and let them stay there long enough that they will love to change their ways when they get out....

[MP]

Chris:

I like a lot you say, but I disagree on this one.  We fought a WAR, The Revolutanary War, to put a STOP to actions just like this.

It may be messy at times, but the Constitution should be respected.

If they arrest me for not showing ID, they better have a reason other than fishing, or they are OUTSIDE the law.

We have fought a number of wars to remain free, no use giving it up voluntarily!

To paraphrase, One who gives up freedom, for security, has neither!

MP

Maybe you have taken what I said wrongly.  In a known high crime area I think local law inforcement should be able to simply ask me what Im up to if Im somewhere where theres nothing to do but be getting into trouble.  If Im not wanted for a crime and Im doing nothing wrong they should warn me of the danger and if I still want to stroll through there, I should be allowed.  Im just saying there are too many protections for the criminal is all.

Im not saying they should arrest me, detain me or accuse me unjustly.

I have been pulled over on a Texas highway just because the car I was driving was riding low in the back.  The answer for why was that people running drugs had cars riding low in the back.  We had parachutes in the trunk because we were on our way to a skydiving trip.  I didnt mind one bit being inconvenianced for a few minutes....

I think freedom is made stronger when crime is under control

Now you are just talking about asking someone what they are doing.  I have no problem with that.  The OP, and I believe your support, was about DEMANDING ID, and arresting you if you did not produce it.  BIG DIFFERENCE.

As long as they are just asking what I am doing, and I have the right to not answer, or to answer, I am cool with that.

MP

[Willow]

I've nothing against foot patrols or even arming police officers with AR-15's, but the Police Chief of Paragould specifically stated they would be stopping everyone and requiring ID.  He stated that anyone who didn't cooperate would be charged with obstructing a government operation.  He stated, ""They may not be doing anything but walking their dog, but they're going to have to prove it."

It's clear to me that takes the Paragould police department completely out of the role of serving the public.

I do believe extreme measures need to be taken to deal with high crime areas.  I've no problem with the police questioning people involved in suspicious activities or even those reasonably suspected of unlawful behavior.  I do firmly believe that setting aside the rights guaranteed the citizens by the Constitution of the United States of America is a dangerous thing to do.

[steve 3054]

I am still having a little problem with this story line...once again I believe it comes down to common sense...if you are walking your dog at 3:00 in the afternoon, 8:30 at night...I think a P.O. should say hi and pass by unless the dog walker engages in a conversation...however if you are taking a walk at 3:30 in the morning and a P.O. asking you what you are doing and your response is , " I am walking! " be prepared and rightly so to endure some questioning and further investigation.  This issue here is not your "rights" as so many have expressed...we have to many  " rights" in this country, its the fact that you don't know what the P.O. knows, robbery just around the corner 10 minutes ago, call from citizen of person walking between houses looking in the windows and trying doors, dogs barking and so on.  If I am fast asleep and I wake the next day to find out someone was around my house or walking on the sidewalk at 3:30 in the am,  and a P.O. stops them and asks them what they are doing...I am very happy that local law enforcement is looking out for me!  In jux to position, I don't care about the person's " rights " at 3:30 am...and if someone has a problem with a P.O. , while being courteous, asks you what you are doing at 3:30 am maybe, just maybe the problem is YOU!

[Willow]

Again, Steve, forgive my repetition, but it appears you didn't read the linked article.

I've no problem with police questioning people of whom there is reasonable suspicion, or even when there is a reported or suspected crime that has occurred in the area.  The police chief clearly stated the everyone would be stopped and questioned and that everyone would be required to produce ID and that everyone who didn't cooperate would be charged with a crime.

You and I agree that under normal circumstances the "P.O. should say hi and pass by unless the dog walker engages in a conversation" however we both clearly disagree with what the police chief said would be done.