Need some advice on painting the Valkyrie

[1500Rider]

A question for those who understand the process of painting.

I'm in the process of having my '97 Valkyrie repainted using two-tone candy red candy colors similar to my '98 Goldwing. I purchased the paint ahead of time as another painter was going to do the job but ultimately couldn't due to health reasons. The paint is from Color Rite.

During the process, my current painter has been explaining the difficulties of using the Color Rite paint but I'm not so sure it is the product's fault or his own inexperience. Firstly, contrary to what I wanted, he talked me out of using Color Rite's own primer and clear coat, despite the warnings clearly stated in Color Rite's instructions that other companies primers ect. may not work. This resulted in the first base coat he laid down not properly adhering to the primer. What I found frustrating is that he claimed he tried the process of stripping the tank down to bare metal, priming and putting on the base coat three times before deciding it wouldn't work.

After what he claimed was a whole day with Color Rite's technical support staff, he's making claims that the paint is unworkable due to what he called the strict guidelines imposed by Color Rite in using there process. He claimed they were rude and completely unhelpful.

Here's what he finds objectionable with the product:

• Only Color Rite products should be used, no other manufacturer's products, including primer or clear.
• He wanted to sand between each layer of paint but Color Rite said this should not be done with candy colors.
• He doesn't believe a two-tone process is possible because there is a very strict window to apply the clear after the final color coat (can be applied in as little as 30-60 minutes but can wait up to a maximum of 24 hours).
• Color Rite suggests only doing color sanding following the last coat of clear is fully cured (they suggested waiting a week to be sure).
• Color Rite recommends using only 2 coats for each layer (primer, base, top color and clear) but said three can be used if needed.
• He claims that not sanding the primer layer is unacceptable but sanding the primer is clearly allowed as per Color Rite's instructions.

Now, not being a painter myself, I really don't know what the considerations are when it comes to the different steps in applying a good paint job, however, my research into several other companies has found that many reputable paint companies have similar guidelines with their products. One product my painter keeps extolling the virtues of is House of Kolor. After reading some of their literature is seems they have many, if not all, of the same guidelines as Color Rite and in some cases their time constraints are even more strict.

Does this guy really know what he's talking about or is he just making excuses for his lack of experience painting or maybe just with the use of this product? He talked a really good game the first several times I met with him but I'm beginning to wonder if he's just a clever salesman. I'm getting really frustrated as I've given him a significant amount of money already and have nothing to show for it. He claims I should have never bought the paint and only dealt with him. I can see that point but circumstances unfolded in such a way that I already had all the paint, minus primer and clear, which I have since purchased.

Anyway, I'm stuck with everything I need to paint the bike but am a little leery of allowing this painter to continue. Color Rite Technical Support was very helpful when I called them and gave me several methods of doing this job, all of which he's rejected. Don't want to through more good money after bad. I'm seriously considering asking for my deposit and parts back and seeking another painter.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[1500Rider]

Forgot to mention that in between the two candy reds there is supposed to be a non-metallic, bright red pin stripe. He said that adding this to the project was totally unfeasible. I know some pin striping can be done over the clear while others do it under. With a simple two-tone layout, is a pin stripe under the clear possible? Would it look back over the clear?

[Wayneo13]

Get a new painter...........

[scoot]

I would say cut your losses. He may be a very good painter with a lot of experience. Not all paints spray the same, though. I have sprayed Color Rite's paints, and it was odd. I was able to get a good paint with consistent color ( GoldWing light gold met. ), but it took some work.
A lot of painters have their favorite paints that they like to spray. Color Rite's instructions for spraying don't sound any different than most other's. However, there is more to spraying then just sanding, mixing, and cure times. More importantly is technique. Air pressure, speed, distance of gun to surface. And candy colors are the worst to spray.
Like I said cut your losses. You are just going to be putting more into it, and most likely won't be happy in the end. Find a reputable painter. Find one that does custom work. Ask for some references.  Face it, it won't be cheap. If it is, it won't be good.

[9Ball]

run, don't walk....too many competent painters out there to be stuck with this guy.

[PatrickDoss]

What Scoot said about different paints spraying differently is a very valid point. I've heard of some very good painters who turned down better paying jobs with other shops because the other shop used a different brand of paint than the guy was used to spraying. It can definitely affect the outcome of the final product.
 I'm no painter myself, but I had a '94 Wing that was the same R176c color code they used through '00. As I recall from getting some work done, the base coat is a bright silver, with a sort of translucent candy red "clear" applied. I can't remember if there's a "clear" clear on top of that. I do remember how they get the two-tone, though. It's a decal on top of the silver, and under the red. For that bike, the decal is actually a charcoal color in the field, with a yellow pinstripe. Sounds crazy, I know, but when you spray the red over the top of it, it turns out the way you see it on your Wing. Other colors, like my current blue Wing, the decal was the final color and simply had a true clear coat on top of it. You can see this by ordering the "stripe" from Honda. The one on the top of the trunk is probably the cheapest due to size. Because of this decal effect, Honda doesn't actually have a paint in the dark red color, so any color code you find for it is something made up by the paint company. PPG has the closest match, and you can also order paint from Bushtec trailer company (or at least you used to could). Bushtec spent a lot of time matching those colors because that used to be a big deal to them. Their matches were always spot on.
 One other thing: Know what your instructions said about two or three coats? What they really mean is two coats is a different appearance than three. If you're really matching your Goldwing's color, you'll need to make some test panels with different numbers of coats to see which one looks right out in the sun. It all depends on how many passes the Honda painter made on the assembly line with the red layer. One guy might have made two, second shift might have made three passes over the part with the spray gun. Any good painter can tell you candy colors are the hardest to match for this reason. Often times, if you order a replacement part for a 1500 Wing in some other color, you can see around the back side of it where they attempted to paint it red and it didn't turn out right. Rather than try again with the red, they simply sand it and run it through the line with the next color batch (they paint 20 sets at a time in the same color).

[dreamaker]

May be this guy can help. What do you think!!


http://biertijd.com/mediaplayer/?itemid=39532#.URXSkmaCT2k.email

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Get a new painter...........

Agree 

Good paint jobs ain't cheap....Cheap paint jobs ain't good.

[john]

           " explaining the difficulties "                       

      you got the wrong guy .....     

[1500Rider]

Thanks Patrick. I was aware of the decals used on the Goldwing but didn't realize the pinstripe was part of that too. While I chose the same paint colors from Color Rite that my 'Wing is, I'm not too concerned about a perfect match as the entire bike is being done. As long as it's close, I'll be happy.

What really worries me is that the painter is trying to convince me that Color Rite paint is crap and that I should have gone with something he has supplied. From everything I've read, Color Rite's guidelines are not all that different than many other paint manufacturers and, in some cases, more forgiving. I can't really see the product line as being crap when so many people use it. The only complaints I've ever heard about Color Rite is that it is expensive and that sometimes the colors don't match OEM. Like I said, as the whole bike is being done for scratch, matching isn't an issue.

I guess what I'm really concerned about is whether my painter is feeding me a line to cover his own inexperience or did I make a mistake in buying Color Rite's product. Bottom line is if my painter has no confidence in the product, rightfully or wrongfully, how can I possibly have any confidence is his ability to provide a good paint job?

[BF]

Thanks Patrick. I was aware of the decals used on the Goldwing but didn't realize the pinstripe was part of that too. While I chose the same paint colors from Color Rite that my 'Wing is, I'm not too concerned about a perfect match as the entire bike is being done. As long as it's close, I'll be happy.

What really worries me is that the painter is trying to convince me that Color Rite paint is crap and that I should have gone with something he has supplied. From everything I've read, Color Rite's guidelines are not all that different than many other paint manufacturers and, in some cases, more forgiving. I can't really see the product line as being crap when so many people use it. The only complaints I've ever heard about Color Rite is that it is expensive and that sometimes the colors don't match OEM. Like I said, as the whole bike is being done for scratch, matching isn't an issue.

I guess what I'm really concerned about is whether my painter is feeding me a line to cover his own inexperience or did I make a mistake in buying Color Rite's product. Bottom line is if my painter has no confidence in the product, rightfully or wrongfully, how can I possibly have any confidence is his ability to provide a good paint job?

It's possible you rubbed the guy the wrong way bringing him paint and saying this is how you want it done.  

You might have offened the guy.  Not saying that's what happened, but it's possible.

At this point, it really doesn't matter if he's competent or not.  Either way, like others have said, cut your losses and find another painter.  

Did you see any examples of his work before turning him lose on your bike?  

We have a custom bike shop with one of the, if not the best custom painters around here.  They have books full of pics of his work.  The guy really does some seriously nice stuff.  I'd never dream of taking him cans of paint and telling him what to do with it.  

When I had the pieces painted that I needed painted, I gave him the black paint code from Honda (it's just black...nothing special) and simply told him that I needed the pieces black and shiny (one color with clear....cheaper that way).  I left it up to him to paint it with his paint and his technique.  

Find a new painter, check out examples of his work, talk to him explaining what you want......and if you want the Valk to look like your wing, perhaps taking him the paint codes from your wing (or maybe even taking the wing by and letting him check it out) and contract him to paint your tins.  

Offer your cans of Color Rite to your new painter to see if he wants to use it, but if not, let him do what he does best and paint your bike.  But don't be offended if he doesn't want to use it.  

[1500Rider]

No, none of the problems developed until later. Not being a painter myself, I would never dictate to a painter how he or she should use any product. Before he even accepted the job I had told him I already had the paint. I had the paint because another guy, a friend of a friend, was going to paint the bike and told me to supply me own paint. He ended up not being able to to the job which left me looking for another painter.

I never brought any of information Color Rite had given me to the painter, outside of their instructions that they supplied with the paint, until he started complaining about the supposed limitations of the product. He was quite happy to use the paint I supplied when the job first began and it wasn't until several botched attempts at applying the base coat over the primer he started to complain about Color Rite. I have been nothing but accommodating supportive of the problems but have finally had enough. It's got to point where my wife is getting upset with me over just how many chances I've given this gut to get it right. Time to recover what I can financially, pick up my parts and consider it a lesson learned.

[1500Rider]

After days of waiting and waiting, finally got my painter to meet with me. Told him the project wasn't working for me and he was quite happy with me taking the parts back. No hard feelings. I then asked for the second deposit I had given him to "start over" to be returned. That's when things turned ugly. Fortunately there was no physical altercations but he was quite unprofessional in his conduct and language, something I told him I didn't appreciate as my 12 year old daughter had come along to help me load parts. This only made him angrier and more volatile. Managed to get all my parts back but no refund. Looks like I'll have to take legal action which was something I wanted to avoid. I was willing to forego the money I had already spent ($1,650, not including paint) for the work he had done (all he did was sand the tank, fenders and side covers, prime them and put one layer of base coat for a candy color on. He figured that on top of the $2,650 I had paid him with the second deposit, I should own him another $500. You've got to be kidding! The paint he's already put down is so poor I have to take it to a professional to start from scratch.

So, $2,650 and five months wasted on this guy! Moral of the story, always go to the professionals first! Ironically, I'm taking the parts to the first painter I ever talked to. His work is impeccable, attitude totally professional and ready, willing and able to take on the job right away. The only reason I didn't go with him the first time was is estimate of $2,500 seemed a little high at the time. If only I knew then what I know now – it was a deal! Feeling like quite the idiot right now!

[Jess from VA]

If small claims court is in your future, I'd get a written opinion from your current painter as to the fair market value of the work that's already been performed by your fired painter, and pictures, before he does any work.  Assuming he supports your position, he needs to be your expert witness in court as well.  Some guys hate to get involved, but that is the type of evidence you will need to prevail in getting some of your money back. 

Document all expenses, time, trips, yada as well.

[Momz]

As far as paint goes, I know several painters that will not use "Color Rite", as they are more familiar with "House of Kolor" or automotive "Base coat/Clear coat" (PPG, 3M, etc).

I had my Thunderbird repainted and it was a major pain. The OEM "Cinammon Glow Metallic" was a short production run. We had to have the paint custom blended in laquer and had to use an alchohol based primer over the original acrylic paint. Two coats of primer, sanded then four coats of base coat, then four coats of clear. Wet sanded after second. thrrd, and final clear. Then polished and sealed to perfection. Waxed after a month.

[scoot]

Every painter has his favorite. As I said in a previous post I wasn't impressed with Color Rite. The materials were expensive, and I thought it was hard to spray. House of color paints are great paints, good color selection and the hues are wonderful. Although expensive, the results are nice if done by the right painter.
If you want just a normal paint (original) a good body shop should be able to match it. If you want a custom job look for someone who does custom work.
Remember, good paint work isn't cheap.

[fudgie]

Dont ask me when I did my b'wing it looked good but never dried. So I bought a bra! 

[scoot]

Dont ask me when I did my b'wing it looked good but never dried. So I bought a bra! 

So......I gotta ask. You got a little up lift, but what you do with the fairing?

[1500Rider]

Well, I hope the third time is the charm. Finally delivered my Valkyrie parts to a real painter today. Couple of hours drive from home but this guy does fantastic work. Got a tour of his shop (impeccable) and he introduced me to his staff (very professional and courteous). Think I can finally relax as I believe the bike to be in the rights hands – finally. Quote was a little higher than I had planned but as they say, you get what you pay for. Can't wait to see the results!

[fudgie]

Dont ask me when I did my b'wing it looked good but never dried. So I bought a bra! 

So......I gotta ask. You got a little up lift, but what you do with the fairing?

Lift and separate!

[Valhalla]

I recently bought a set of hard bags off a 97 tourer as an upgrade to my 97 standard...  but they were green and cream and i ride red and white. I went for several estimates and most identified there was a change in environmental law (Canada, maybe US as well) that required water based rather than old school lacquer based paint.  They could not guarantee color, tint or texture match even with the tank beside the bags.  Fortunately, one was certified for restoration and could get limited quantities (aka enough for two bags on that application) for restoration.  OMG worth it.  $500.  [/img]
A Valkyrie paint job is entering the age and rareness for a vintage restoration job.  Don't just ask for a paint job if you want a vintage restore.  If you just want flat black all over, then pop the tank and fenders and hand them to the guy down the street. but for vintage restoration, don't even bring them to a shop before you walk through and see his work.  No other references count.