Is there really a God??

[bscrive]

Sandman,

You are making no sense.  Read my previous posts first and then comment.  Read them slowly and don't just read what you want to.

[SANDMAN5]

"Evolution is unproven and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is Special Creation, and that is unthinkable."  Sir Arthur Keith

"The [evolutionary] origin of birds is largely a matter of deduction. There is no fossil evidence of the stages through which the remarkable change from reptiles to birds was achieved."
  W.E. Swinton, Britsh Museum of Natural History

"Other examples, including the much-repeated 'gradual' evolution of the horse, have not held up under close examination." Biology, The Unity and Diversity of Life, Wadsworth 1992

"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would have certainly included them. I will lay it on the line-there is not one such fossil."  Dr Colin Paterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, in correspondence to Luther Sunderland. Quoted in 'Darwin's Enigma' 1985

[SANDMAN5]

Help me out a little. Where am I not making sense?

[bscrive]

God is unproven and unprovable. You believe it only because the only alternative is Evolution, and that is unthinkable. - bscrive

[bscrive]

Give it up Sandman.  I think we have beat this topic to death today.  Go out and ride.

[klb]

Bottom line is we will all find out one day.   

[Robert]

...  I don't need anything greater than myself to believe in to be happy or content.  I make my own.  Great for you, that you do believe in god.  I don't need that kind of thing to make my life complete.

I do.

I'm pretty certain I was not complete without Jesus Christ.  Oftimes I'm sure I've still got a ways to go, but I'm complete with Jesus whether or not I finish the journey.

I was a pretty bad person without Him, likely more bad than pretty and I was really pretty.  I'm still not nearly as good as I'd like to be.  

I guess to a great degree whether or not one is complete depends a great deal upon what were the plans for the build and at what point the owner is willing to settle for progress achieved.

As to the original post, we do live in a world in which evil abounds.  That said, through my eyes, I cannot sometimes accurately discern what is good and what is evil.  I trust that God can.  The Scriptures tell me that His ways are not our ways and our ways are not His.  I have come to accept that.  There are many times I've wondered why it appeared that God had intervened in one set of circumstances and not in another.  When I'm overwhelmed at injustice and wonder at God's not balancing the scales I'm reminded that I have certainly received more mercy and blessing than justice.  I will not judge God.
 
To be able to say authoritatively there is no God one would have to know all things and to have searched all places.  For one to accomplish that one would have to be God.  

A man will choose to believe what he will.  For the unbeliever the issue is further clouded by the large number of imposters among those who claim to be believers.  We don't have to look far at all to find them.  

I for one am persuaded of two things.  There is a God and I am not He.

   

Sometimes there's nothing better than a Willowism 

[Kidd]

The idea of god/religion was created when man kind  was smart enough  to create him , we did not have science yet , now we got science .

We all live in a big casino  , every day is a gamble , a throw of the dice .

There are over 1000 religions around the world all starting about the same time.


It does make you feel good thinking you might go to heaven when you die .

I think of it more like unplugging an appliance , when we die

I am not saying we are appliances , don't go there

Kidd

[BIG--T]

God is unproven and unprovable. You believe it only because the only alternative is Evolution, and that is unthinkable. - bscrive

Just because you don't believe doesn't mean it's not true. If you are right and  we just rot in the grave - no spirit= no heaven or hell and no accountability, then the Pope, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Stalin and the rest of us will never know. But what IF these Christians are right and there is a heaven and hell? Are you willing to take that chance? As others have pointed out, God gives us free will so we are not robots. We can either choose to love Him or hate Him, the choice is ours.

[Valkernaut]

Why will we not admit that we just really don't know??!  I used to think I did - but I got older....

Jim

[steve 3054]

Do you/we really know anything???  I believe and find it easier to believe than not...life is full of choices and sometimes we make the wrong one....

[John Schmidt]

Some of you may recall the postings of my daughter, Toni, last July when I had my major heart attack. I was in a coma for ten days, not expected to survive. Yet, with the God given skills of the surgeon, and the power of literally hundreds of prayers, I am here today. And, in talking to my wife and daughters, there was a point of despair on their part that suddenly changed to a feeling of victory in a matter of hours. They had no idea why, and it turned out to be coincidental for them; my wife here in Orlando, my two daughters in Illinois and Wisconsin. They all suddenly knew that I had turned a corner and was going to make it. None were at my bedside at the time to see anything, it was a strong feeling of victory. And when they compared notes later, they realized it had happened to each of them at the same time, though separated by hundreds of miles. It was at that time that I started to stir and come out of the coma, my organs started functioning on their own without any outside stimulation. All the nurses and drs. called me the miracle man....I was one of two that came in that night, but the only one to survive. And the best part, there was no brain damage....although Rita has teased me about that from time to time. Says she isn't so sure about that. 

I was in the hospital for five weeks and weak as a kitten upon discharge. Yet, 2 1/2 months after discharge I was back on the bike. It was then I made a goal for myself that with God's help and guidance, I would be back in the gym soon. And the goal was that by my 75th b'day. last week, I wanted to be at or beyond the weight I was lifting at the gym the afternoon prior to my attack. I asked the Lord daily to first cleanse my heart, then heal it. I feel He has done so beyond my expectations. The result....I surpassed that goal two weeks before my birthday. It was not without a lot of hard work, the old ticker at first was really weak. But I've felt inspired like never before, trusting in His guidance and direction as to what to do on which days. It all fell into place seeminly without effort. The trainers have been blown away by the recovery, as have my doctors. As one surgeon said during one followup appointment; "the Lord was with you that night."

When I think of all the prayers lifted on my behalf during those dark days, many from this board, I keep thinking of the passage in Mathew: "for where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Does prayer change things? Absolutely and without question, there is no medical reason for me to be writing this. Am I thankful for the outcome? Again...absolutely! Do I feel worthy? No....but it's not my decision. It was a blessing for me and my family, one of many I've received during my short stay on this blue marble called Earth and for which I'm eternally grateful. In closing, I'll add something we all understand. Imagine what the total bill would be for a five week hospital stay that included three weeks in the Intensive Cardiac Care Unit with round the clock monitoring and personal attention. Each nurse had only two patients to care for....that's "intensive." My health insurance costs me about $550/month in addition to Medicare for me and my wife, it also includes prescription coverage better than Part D. My total out of pocket expense through all this for bills totaling well over $1 million?  Zero! Zip! Nada!

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

[BIG--T]

Why will we not admit that we just really don't know??!  I used to think I did - but I got older....

Jim

Jim I  know because He totally transformed my life 180 degrees 17 years ago from the wretched man that I was. Yes I know- I just talked to Him this morning! 

[BIG--T]

John Schmidt, Thank you for that testimony!! Yes God answers prayers and is still in the healing business. I was in the hospital with a quintuple bypass in 07 and the surgeon couldn't believe  how fast I recovered (as he said he was a man of faith also) which I found unusual as he was the top surgeon. Between a great doctor and my church and only God knows all that prayed. But the great thing was I had no fear of dying and  didn't know if I was gonna make it- poor fellow beside me didn't(she told me later) and called code blue my wife said that scared her to death, but it was great to know where I was going if I didn't make it. I had that peace that passes all understanding- I just didn't want to leave my wife and children. A Christian only dies once and is a winner either way! 

[Xtracho]

Mr. Schmidt's account brings other questions to my mind. At what point do you admit that events occur, or have occurred, that cannot be explained away by coincidence? That the chain of events are simply too perfectly strung together that randomness is impossible? It is at that time you must admit that there is a higher authority?

My father died in 1997. He had been diagnosed with prostate cancer many years prior to that and the disease spread to his bones. Instead of a lengthy, lingering, painful death he suffered a massive stroke and died about 8 days later. He was spared the pain of the cancer invading his body. While in the hospice that final week our family was able to prepare for the inevitable to come. We all visited him each day...except for my sister Mary. She lived in Tallahassee and was unable to be there as much as she wanted because of work, raising three rambunctious boys, and other commitments. We had lengthy phone conversations over her frustration at not being able to be there. My mom, my baby sister, and I were there every day.

The morning my father died I was at home, my mother was at home, my baby sister was teaching school. Yet the one person, the only person that was there when my father drew his last breath? My sister Mary. She could not be there the days prior, but she was there in his room, holding his hand at the most important time. All that time worrying about not being able to be at my father's side and there she was, the only member of our family present, at the most critical moment.

I also mentioned earlier that my dad was a Presbyterian minister for over 40 years. At the exact moment of his death his colleagues in the ministry, the Synod of Mobile, AL, were all gathered together for their quarterly meeting. At the news of his death, these brothers were all together to honor and pray for one of their own. This was a quarterly meeting. So that means they would have not gathered again for another 3 months. Yet at the exact moment of my father's death....there they were...gathered in spirit and fellowship to remember and pay homage to my dad.

I"m sorry, but no one will ever convince me these events were simply coincidence.

[Robert]

There is no proof of evolution either, Why not spend the money that was spent on cern to find God or fund programs for the homeless? I could tell you dozens of stories about God and what He has done for people and how lives have changed. Not to mention the near death experiences they are trying to explain away but cannot. Hold on to your faith because we are going to see more and more attacks on our faith. We see it in media now and big corporations have signed on to the faithless agenda. The changes to society cannot come unless people forget their faith and where they came from.

[Fritz The Cat]

The more one is blessed, the greater the belief in God. I've known people who were crap on so hard by life that belief in God became a total impossibility. I've also known people who were blessed in abundance and they became true believers and faithful church goers.

Seems like God chooses his believers.

[SANDMAN5]

Seems like God chooses his believers

Absolutely not. We have free will to choose our beliefs.
If God chose His believers, we would ALL be believers.

[SANDMAN5]

There is no proof of evolution either

I tried to make that point with bscrive but he said I
wasn't making sense. He still hasn't told what didn't
make sense to him.

[Chrisj CMA]

Seems like God chooses his believers

Absolutely not. We have free will to choose our beliefs.
If God chose His believers, we would ALL be believers.

actually SANDMAN the Bible says in Ephesians 1:4 we are chosen and John 6:44 says we are drawn by the father and come to him only through Jesus (John 14:6)

But, you are right in that we have the final say.  We say yes or we say no.  No one ends up in Heaven or Hell by accident.  One must decide

[Patrick]

It seems to me that some societies/cultures need to change their faith in order to make much needed changes for the better.

[Jess from VA]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/04/08/angry-atheists-history-and-america-future/

[Willow]

The more one is blessed, the greater the belief in God. I've known people who were crap on so hard by life that belief in God became a total impossibility. I've also known people who were blessed in abundance and they became true believers and faithful church goers.

Seems like God chooses his believers.

Actually, Fritz, my experience and observations have not borne that out.  In individual cases I've seen faith blossom or strengthen during times of tragedy, loss, and persecution.  I've also seen faith fade in good times.  I've seen some abandon their faith in the face of disappointment and loss.

My observation would be that hard times can either intensify or destroy one's faith.  My guess is that it usually increases whatever tendency was already there.

Two interesting observations are that the Christian church in China grew more rapidly during the years of its persecution than it did during all the time before.  The church in the United States has faded in its strength and influence most rapidly as the country itself exploded in affluence.

I'm sure among our own numbers you can easily find people moving both directions as a result of loss and tragedy.  I's expect you'd have some difficulty gathering a sampling of true believers who have become so as a result of blessing and abundance.      

[Xtracho]

The smartest man ever to live has it all figured out...   

[SANDMAN5]

But, you are right in that we have the final say.  We say yes or we say no.  No one ends up in Heaven or Hell by accident

That was my point, just worded a little differently. God wants us ALL to be His
followers. John 3:16,17

[SANDMAN5]

Einstein's theory of relativity was off by about 2%. 

[.]

Fritz, I am truly sorry to hear of your loss, and while no one can possibly know with any certainty on this side of the veil what lies beyond I hope you are able to find some answers that make sense to you.

I suspect that those who believe in God, a Supreme Being, a Creator, or however they choose to address their deity, don't require proof of God's existence. They have faith and that is quite enough. And I suspect also, that those who don't believe in a Creator in any form or fashion will not find proof of the existence of God and thus will remain skeptical unless they make a decision to take that leap of faith.

What is interesting is that neither side of the debate has managed to corner the market on antagonistic rhetoric and both sides are populated as well by reasonable people of good intent. As a non-believer I have had Christians tell me in all sincerity that they will pray for my soul and I have had Christians tell me in all sincerity that I'll roast for eternity and say it in such a way that it makes me think they relish the thought. To those who offer prayers I don't discriminate whether they are to God, Jehovah, Elohim, Yahweh, Allah, or the Great Spirit. I have always appreciated the kind thoughts of others regardless of what form they take. To those who delight in the thought that I'll spend eternity in thoughtful reflection of my finite transgressions in life while being stabbed the ass with a pitchfork for all eternity (they exist, regardless of whether or not you may believe a person who identifies themselves as a believer could be so petty and vindictive-if you are a believer and you can't picture it then it probably means I didn't just describe you). I figure if their Jesus or Muhammed is coming back to kick some ass, I'm not going to argue the point with them.

Many non-believers believe with all their hearts that matters of eternity are unknowable and are either unable or unwilling (or both) to make that leap of faith simply because it doesn't make sense to them, but they are fully cognizant of the fact that it makes perfect sense to a great many people. Other non-believers will say straight up that people who adhere to any religion are a bunch of superstitious idiots.

I am quite up front with the fact that I am not a believer in any religion but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm an atheist. I simply don't know and have made peace with the idea that I will find out when the time comes. I don't believe that our conciousness blinks out like a fried computer motherboard when we die but beyond that I have no idea what can possibly happen. I think, however, the possibilities are virtually endless and that interests me enough that I don't particularly fear death. I don't care to rush it by being stupid or careless but it doesn't fill me with any particular dread.

I do think politics and religion (regardless of the flavor or the reasons they were created)were created to establish order and answer some of the great questions of the universe but, being the human beings that we are, we have been fruitful and multiplied to the point we are about to exhaust the ability of this planet to sustain human life, and we don't have a Plan B. It's both interesting and disturbing (at least to me) that the major world religions have two things in common-monotheism and apocalyptic prophecy (and now that we have the ability to either choke the planet to death or wipe it out in the blink of an eye-that apocalyptic prophecy could very well be self fulfilling-there seems to be something of a "bring it on" mentality among fundamentalists regardless of how often or what direction they face when having a chat with the almighty-it was a little more stable back when the end of the world was at the sole discretion of the almighty).

I have read the Bible and studied it carefully in my younger days, and it doesn't convince me that Christianity is the One True Way anymore than the Quran has convinced me there is no god but Allah. On the flip side, there is nothing there that convinces me it's all or any measure of a hoax, either.

Earlier I identified myself as a non-believer. I respect the beliefs of others whether I share them or not and I try very hard to be respectful because the written word has always been subject to interpretation in tone as well as meaning. Being human, I miss that mark on occasion, and I've often been guilty of impatience that leads me to use some ill-considered words. I've fallen victim more than once to the fact that something may make perfect sense to me but that doesn't mean it actually makes sense.  

Not everyone can be right but there is a distinct possibility that everyone CAN be wrong. I don't know how likely that is but I do know the possibility is there. Until we find out I guess the best we can do is try to find the answers that make sense to us and to try our best not to step all over everyone else in the process.

I can probably sum up my viewpoint with this (and if you've read all of this and come to the opinion that I should have-go ahead and keep that one to yourself, would you?  ): I don't suppose I have any reliable answers because so far I'm not even sure I understand the questions.

Happy riding folks. Since I don't know the destination I do my best to enjoy the trip.  

[Willow]

Thank you, ShadowDragon.  You and I are almost in complete agreement excepting six or possibly seven significant points.  

It was very well said and what we do certainly agree upon is that we should be able to express ourselves without being disrespectful.

One small item and that is the use of the term, leap of faith.  That is often used by those who claim to not have faith to condescendingly denigrate the intelligence of those who have faith.  My personal viewpoint is that a faith that is not based on a foundation of knowledge and reason is not worth having.  Certainly faith includes extensions that reach into the realm of that which cannot be necessarily proven beyond doubt (those who have faith in the theory of evolution would have to confess that), but faith should not be blind or a leap into the darkness.

Thank you for the reminder.  Respect and humility can be very useful and are all too often in short supply.    

(Oh, and I read the whole post.)

[Misfit]

You are free to believe or not to believe. You can like it or not. The fact remains. We all live under the reign of one King. The fact that you may not believe has no bearing on his existence. This does not mean that he controls our every move like game pieces, but there is no question who is in control. There is only one true God and I am glad I know him. 

[Kidd]

What about all the other  religions  and their gods   ?????
What do you say about them ??

You are free to believe or not to believe. You can like it or not. The fact remains. We all live under the reign of one King. The fact that you may not believe has no bearing on his existence. This does not mean that he controls our every move like game pieces, but there is no question who is in control. There is only one true God and I am glad I know him. 

[Kidd]

And yet you ride a motorcycle ?

. I don't care to rush it by being stupid or careless but it doesn't fill me with any particular dread.

[Fritz The Cat]

All religions would have you believe that they own the path to Heaven, especially the Christian Church. Just ask any Baptist preacher and he'll tell you that the church is the only way to Heaven and he'll also mention the importance to proper tiding. The christian church doesn't give a damn about you, all they care about is your money and how to relieve you of it. Ask any "believer" and he/she will tell you that without church (and proper tiding) you will never know God. This is why Islam will eventually conquer America. Christians have dumped god and now worship the almighty dollar in his place. Sorry, that's the way I see it.

Is there really and truly a God? I don't expect to find out this side of life but I pray that I will on the other side, if there is an other side.

[steve 3054]

I believe God has many faces....and the post where a person did well in life and the other did poorly...I believe people who live a just life are rewarded and blessed as I also believe that if you live an unjust life, life will not be all that fun....and having said that it does seem that some of those who worship Satan do very well in life as well.  And the bottom line is.....it is all about faith.

[Moonshot_1]

Satan do very well in life as well.  And the bottom line is.....it is all about faith.

And the Hokey Pokey

[.]

And yet you ride a motorcycle ?

. I don't care to rush it by being stupid or careless but it doesn't fill me with any particular dread.

I also fly on commercial airlines and drive my car on the freeway. There is no reason at all for me not to ride a motorcycle. I enjoy it a great deal and besides, ain't none of us getting out of here alive.

[SANDMAN5]

All religions would have you believe that they own the path to Heaven, especially the Christian Church. Just ask any Baptist preacher and he'll tell you that the church is the only way to Heaven and he'll also mention the importance to proper tiding. The christian church doesn't give a damn about you, all they care about is your money and how to relieve you of it. Ask any "believer" and he/she will tell you that without church (and proper tiding) you will never know God. This is why Islam will eventually conquer America. Christians have dumped god and now worship the almighty dollar in his place. Sorry, that's the way I see it.

Is there really and truly a God? I don't expect to find out this side of life but I pray that I will on the other side, if there is an other side.

If we didn't believe we had the only way our faith wouldn't count for much.......would it? Not sure why you brought denominations (Baptist) into it. The Bible is not a Baptist book. It's not a religious
book, either. Jesus spoke against religion...Jesus wasn't/isn't religious...God doesn't want us to have
religion. Religion is man's version of what God said. It's true that some churches (not just Christian ones, as you allude) are only, or overly, interested in money..or notoriety...or something else that goes against the Bible. But your statement, as it is written, is a lie..unless you've personally studied EVERY Christian church in the world. Tithing, not 'tiding', won't help you to know God. It is an act of faith for the faithful. God doesn't want/need our money. He wants our faithfulness. You can know God without church, but a good, Bible-based church (I prefer non-denominational) is a GREAT place to get started and to learn more about Him!! The Bible even tells us (Hebrews?) to not forsake the gathering together for worship and prayer. For those that mentioned they'll wait till they get to "the other side" to find out...according to our Bible that's too late. I'm not telling someone they'll burn in Hell for eternity for not accepting Jesus...the Bible tells us that. Bottom line...everyone chooses for themselves where they will spend eternity. I just don't like seeing people make a decision that important based on bad information, or lack of information. Islam conquering America? Read Revelations and some good commentaries on it written by believers. One world govt, one world religion...it's coming fast!!!! 

[f6john]

All religions would have you believe that they own the path to Heaven, especially the Christian Church. Just ask any Baptist preacher and he'll tell you that the church is the only way to Heaven and he'll also mention the importance to proper tiding. The christian church doesn't give a damn about you, all they care about is your money and how to relieve you of it. Ask any "believer" and he/she will tell you that without church (and proper tiding) you will never know God. This is why Islam will eventually conquer America. Christians have dumped god and now worship the almighty dollar in his place. Sorry, that's the way I see it.

Is there really and truly a God? I don't expect to find out this side of life but I pray that I will on the other side, if there is an other side.

         I can only assume you truly believe your statement. I am not attacking you or your position if that's how you feel. But I can tell you emphatically that you are incorrect in your statement, specifically in regard to believers and Baptist faith in general as I am both. Having been the son of a Baptist minister, professing my belief at age nine and having served as a Deacon in my church, I feel I can speak to your comments.

         If you attended any of the local Baptist churches in my area you would hear the message from the pulpit that membership is not tied to salvation at all and no one should put their faith in their membership, their giving, their volunteer service or good works of any kind. Money is one of the most often used excuses used to demonize the participation in church. Money is crucial to the operation of any church just as it is crucial to the operation of a home. The Baptist/Christians/Believers I know feel that everything belongs to God. Our life, our belongings, our health, our future is in his hands and tithing is just giving back a portion of our gifts from him. To be a follower of Jesus one must humble themselves and realize we are only here for a very short time and our charge from Christ was to spread the word of salvation to the world. Humbleness is probably the biggest stumbling block to people being able to accept the truth of the Bible's teachings. Most of us feel so independent and full of ourselves that it is hard to admit there is very little we control in this life.

        Christians have dumped God and now worship the dollar?????? If you have experienced this personally, I can understand your misconception of Christians and Baptists in general. Please don't lump us all in the same pile, I can assure you it is not as you say everywhere. My mother and farther suggested years ago that we stop exchanging gifts at Christmas so that we could use that money to be used for church/charitable giving for those less fortunate. That has been our practice for at least the last ten years. If you can't give cheerfully, keep your money, you haven't reach the point where you understand what Jesus taught about giving. In closing  it is my belief and the belief of my fellow Christian friends, that even if you are the largest financial contributor to the church, if you haven't accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are as lost as one who has never heard Gods plan for us. The reason we feel this way is because the Bible tells us in Jesus own words, No one comes to the Farther except through him. That is why He came and offered his person as a Living sacrifice to cover our sins if we only accept Him.

[.]

I'm not telling someone they'll burn in Hell for eternity for not accepting Jesus...the Bible tells us that. Bottom line...everyone chooses for themselves where they will spend eternity.

Assuming that your belief does turn out to be correct in the end, I still find the doctrine of infinite punishment for finite transgression to be so morally repugnant that it (in my mind) becomes impossible to reconcile the notion of a loving, all powerful, all knowing entity with the monster that would create fallible human beings and then punish them for all eternity for the "crime" of being fallible. To me, it just simply doesn't make sense. If the god you describe created mankind, we were created pretty much as we are, with the ability to discern right from wrong as well as the ability to lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate. If Jesus Christ was truly the son of this god then he may very well have been perfect but the second he drew his last breath on this earth he left his legacy in the tender care of human beings. As far as I can tell the results have been a mixed bag ever since.

[SANDMAN5]

In response to Shadowdragon's above post (my copy/paste isn't working)...
No. It's not about transgression, as some churches still teach. The Bible says
the only unforgivable sin is 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, i.e. not accepting
Jesus. You can do good deeds all your life and end up in Hell because you never
accepted Jesus as your Savior. It's not about doing enough good things to get to
Heaven, that's NOT going to happen. It's about standing before God and telling Him
you ARE good enough to "get in" not because of anything YOU did, but because of
what JESUS did!! God will never look at anything I do without it being filtered through
the Blood of Jesus. Without that filter we are ALL going to Hell. We all (Christians) still
have the ability, even the temptation, to lie, cheat, and steal. Too many give in to it. I
don't know anyone today that doesn't sin in one way or another.
When we do, God doesn't see it....but the police do..and I GUARANTEE you the media sees it!!!
Atheists/evolutionists, by definition, cannot have a sense of right/wrong, only legal/illegal.
After all, if we're just here by accident what does it matter if one bag of accidental chemical
mixture puts a bullet through the skull of another accidental chemical mixture? If you believe
there is a right and wrong, then there is somewhere in you a belief in God, because He put that in us. I believe you said you studied the Bible. If so, you missed something very important. Jesus didn't just leave us in charge of everything, He gave us the Holy Spirit. The "mixed bag" will always be with us...until that glorious day when the Trumpet sounds!!!   

[.]

Sandman, I don't share your belief but I respect your faith. I do strongly disagree that so-called atheist/evolutionists are held in check purely because of legal consequence. The flip side of that is the lumping of Christians into the same category of whatever negative pejorative you care to name simply because some people who profess to be Christians behave in morally reprehensible ways. It is simply an easy and careless way of categorization. Those who don't profess a belief in God or Heaven or an afterlife or whatever may (and often do) say adherents of religion have more of a fear of eternal damnation rather than a true moral compass and it may be true for some individuals but it is just as incorrect to assign such motives to all believers.

The fact is, many people try to do the right thing simply because doing right is the right thing to do, not because of any legal consequences here or in the hereafter. Doing right because it feels right is in no way the sole property of any one group regardless of belief. I don't shoot people because I don't want to kill anyone. I don't steal because stealing is wrong on a moral and ethical level and it matters little to me if you use a gun and it comes with a jail term or if you use a bank and gut someone's retirement for a six figure performance bonus. Wrong is wrong and there are a lot of wrongs that are legal and quite a few wrongs perpetrated on behalf of someone's belief in a creator.

I'd like to think that we can agree to disagree without trying categorize each other's adherence to law and morality in terms that diminish one another's personal moral code or sense of responsibility. Heaven and Hell may exist or they may be an invention of religion but regardless of belief we all are stuck on this planet together first.

I hope I don't sound harsh but I do have strong opinions on this subject. Just because I don't profess to be a Christian in no way means I lack the moral compass to act responsibly and ethically without the threat of prosecution to keep me in line. From my standpoint, your belief in eternal suffering and damnation makes prison look like a day at the beach.