Take a look at my splines please

[Dr Bobs Patient]

This is the second thread of my spring maintenance on my 99 I/S.  I now have the drive train apart and cleaned up.  Water had gotten into the drive shaft area but wasn't dried up, just turned the grease into a muddy colored mess.  The Drive Shaft Boot isn't torn, but that is the area that the water was entering - The U-Joint also had the muddy looking grease.

Since I'm new to this type of repair, I am hoping for some feed back on the condition of the following splines:

The front of the Drive Shaft


Here's the Pinion Gear


The Final Drive Gear


And the Drive Shaft



To me they all look in great shape and do not need replacing, except for the Drive Shaft.  But what do I know!  The picture of the Rear Wheel Flange was blurry, but those splines have a nice sharp 90 degree edge on both sides of each spline.

[pancho]

you need to take a better look/pictures of the u joint and output shaft

[Skinhead]

From the pics, the OPS And U joint need cleaned up, but are ok.  The drive shaft splines show significant wear but might go 1 more season, but I would replace it.  The rest  look great.

[Chrisj CMA]

New driveshaft and pinion cup right away

if its a 97 it will cost $150 ish any other year just under $100.  not a bad fix at all

[HayHauler]

The large splines on the drive shaft are definitely bad.  I can't tell by the picture of the pinon cup if they look the same.  I would bet that they are bad too.
I would replace the pinon cup and drive shaft before putting it back together.

The splines of the u-joint and engine output shaft look "OK", but I would clean them up and look at them real good.
edit
Replace the u-joint boot too, it's cheap insurance and new ones are easier to put back on.
/edit
Hay  
Jimmyt

[Skinhead]

It looks to me like a bad heat treat on th DS splines, like the steel was soft, looks more like deformation than wear to me, but still needs replaced.  Can't tell on the PC but, I'd replace it too, keep the old one for emergency use.

[Dr Bobs Patient]

I should have added that I have a replacement U-Joint and Boot already.  That was the reason I took her apart, other than I have only put 3,000 miles since I got her with a total of 60,000 miles on her now.  I'm glad I did this when I did as 2 of the three O-Rings were broke and the DS Oil Seal was shot.  Would not have been a fun time come June when I have my first long distance overnight ride scheduled had she broke down then!  Thanks for your insight!

DBP

[hubcapsc]

New driveshaft and pinion cup right away

if its a 97 it will cost $150 ish any other year just under $100.  not a bad fix at all

Yep... you can see the wear marks in the pinion cup that match up to the
wear on the pinion end of the drive shaft... they look like white stripes in your
picture...

When I went to Gettysburg, the pinion end of my drive shaft looked like this:



So it is possible to keep going down the road a while without having to push, but
that stuff is worn... my eyesight is such that I can't comfortably read a newspaper
without glasses, so the only way I can see this stuff is to take a non-blurry
shot with the camera and then look at it in all of its 10 megapixel glory...
if you get a good shot at the right angle of those white stripes on your pinion cup splines,
you'll probably see a good amount of wear...

-Mike

[Ricky-D]

You're correct!

They are both shot.

***

[Dr Bobs Patient]

Thank guys,

Here's another look at the Pinion Cup............and there is a rounded edge on one side of the splines.


Now my decision is this, since I won't have any more cash available for another week, do I put her back together and ride for the season, or keep her up on the lift for another week or two waiting for a new shaft Drive Shaft, Pinion Cup and associated parts? (When I order the main parts I'll also order the spring, ring, keeper, etc too.)  And I need to keep cleaning things off before I place an order with HDL (they are cheaper on the Drive Shaft than CCP is) just to make sure I check everything.  Anybody got a silver dollar to flip, I'll call tails!

DBP

[Valkpilot]

(When I order the main parts I'll also order the spring, ring, keeper, etc too.) 

Get the pinion cup oil seal as well. It's number 16 on the swingarm parts fische.  (Less than $8.)

[Ricky-D]

Dr Bobs Patient writes:

do I put her back together and ride for the season

Maybe I was a bit harsh to say they are shot!

Depending on use I would agree that you could grease them up and get another season out of them.

They are not ready to go yet, and new grease will sure lend a lot.

***

[Skinhead]

I would feel comfortable using them for 1 season, unless I had a MAJOR ride (like the MI to Galviston I just completed).  Even though I doubt they would fail on you, the peace of mind is worth it when your on a long trip.

[Dr Bobs Patient]

(When I order the main parts I'll also order the spring, ring, keeper, etc too.) 

Get the pinion cup oil seal as well. It's number 16 on the swingarm parts fische.  (Less than $8.)

Already have that on order as I found the old one was shot.

DBP

[pancho]

Keep her on the lift......  once you are riding it will be hard to take it back apart......  to me, that driveline is going fast, looking to get you stranded somewhere. Like skinhead said, it may be sub standard,,, it is going much quicker than the PC.

[Bigwolf]

FWIW  I would never put a drive shaft or pinion cup like those back in my bike.  ..... Unless, I just had to have the bike driveable for a major reason.     A little wear is ok but the deeper wear increases loading on smaller areas and will wear faster.  Also, once the wear has started, the case hardened material often begins to chip off which leads to increased loading on the remaining material.  Increased loading = faster wear.  Also, I would be concerned that the wear shown would be enough to have the shaft bouncing around enough to destroy the seal which would then lead to infiltration of the joint by water leading to the red rust disease that has been the topic of so many discussions lately.

When installing the u-joint boot, be sure that the lip of the boot is seated in the groove of the collar it fits on. 

Bigwolf

[Rio Wil]

Thats a really odd wear pattern on the drive shaft compared to the pinion cup.  Almost seems the parts are not wear mated to each other.......wonder if the p/c was replaced some time back and not the drive shaft, or vice versa. It looks like a half moon wear pattern on the drive shaft and a full length pattern on the cup????

[pancho]

I agree,,,,, it almost looks as though those parts could not have been running together, unless there was an outrageous amount of wobble.

[Dr Bobs Patient]

She's going to stay up on the lift.

Keep her on the lift......  once you are riding it will be hard to take it back apart......

Pancho's got me pegged!  If I put her back together now, I won't want to do it until next year!  I'll wait to get all the right parts.  I feel if I can't do it 100% right, I need to wait until I can!  She'll just have to sit tight until next paycheck!

I have three overnight rides planned this year.  Two long weekends to the Blue Ridge Parkway and one long distance - 2,000 mile trip!  She can wait.

Thanks for you help.

DBP

[Dr Bobs Patient]

Here's a cleaned up picture of the engine shaft splines.  A little wear.

[hubcapsc]

This thread had me second guessing the "good" pinion cups I'd salvaged...



10 megapixels convinced me to order a couple of new cups, I'm not going
to put the new drive shaft I just got into this one...

-Mike

[Dr Bobs Patient]

This thread had me second guessing the "good" pinion cups I'd salvaged...



10 megapixels convinced me to order a couple of new cups, I'm not going
to put the new drive shaft I just got into this one...

-Mike

I just have to get me a new camera!  Been taking pictures with my iPhone 4s!

[pancho]

This pinion cup/ driveline interface certainly is creating some odd wear patterns,, seems to be wobble. I did not check inside my swingarm while I was in that area, and am now wondering if the u joint is swinging freely off the output shaft, or does it slip into a bushing on the back side?

[Ricky-D]

The u-joint swings freely.

Most all of these pictures of the pinion cup splines and the drive shaft splines show normal wear pattern.

The shaft slides way down below the splines in the pinion cup so there is very little wear on the end of the shaft splines and likewise for the pinion cup.

The pinion cup/drive shaft connection acts similarly like a universal c-v joint, and the movement is very limited.

The pictures of the shaft splines and the pinion cup splines show maybe 50% wear in my estimation and still have a lot of life left in them with a good greasing.

50% is a lot more life in the drive line when compared to the life left to a lot of the posters in this forum.  Sad but true!

***

[pancho]

Yeah, all I had to do was think about it for a minute, you could not push the u joint back off the output shaft if there was a bushing!!!! Well, if there is any looseness in a u joint, there will certainly be trouble at the pinion joint.

Waiting on you Ricky-D to get yours apart to see how you fared and what you had done for lubrication last year.   

               that last statement....... you just cant help yourself, can you

[Mildew]

If there's not much slop, I'd ride that horse till she falls over. Just be smooth on your shifting and use your brakes instead of hard downshifting.

[Jabba]

Not me brother...

I try to keep parts on hand... More so now.

I just ordered $250 worth from HDL Parts.  Some I need now... others are for the stock.

I'd replace the driveshaft and pinion cup and grease seal before I put it back together.  that's just me.

Good luck man.  Let us know how it goes.

Jabba

[Dr Bobs Patient]

For the sake of this thread, I'll revisit the symptom that got me to taker it apart  in the first place and see if it helps.

About a month ago or so, I was traveling north bound on I95 out of Brunswick GA to Savannah when a Mercedes passed me like I was standing still.  So, I decided (stupid maybe - wimphobia! LOL) to run behind him for a while.  That means I hit speeds up to and including 100mph.  I found that when I rolled off the throttle, the bike felt like I was running across the rumble strips that the highway department cuts into the sides of the lane pavement.  Roll on throttle, vibration goes away.  Roll off throttle, vibration comes back. At 70mph, the vibration is there, but a lot less noticeable.

I posted this on this forum, and the prognosis was u-joint was wearing and may need replaced.

Now, during this discussion, I have inadvertently failed to mention that the amount of play in the u-joint that I took out was very, very little.  My wife can't feel any looseness, but I can.  It's such a small amount of play, I had to take a second AND a third look at it.  It is impossible for me to convey how little it moves, but compared to the replacement part, it is loose.

That being said, would the u-joint/drive shaft/pinion cup spline wear cause the vibration that occurs at high speed decal?  That my friends is why I have decided to replace the drive shaft and pinion cup.  Is this logical thinking, or should I throw caution to the wind, put the new u-joint in with the old DS and PC and start saving for $ for next years maintenance?

DBP

[Ricky-D]

Although both items are on different ends of the drive shaft, the vibration is coming from the u-loint.

The pinion cup and spline will have a minimal affect, if any regarding the vibration.

***

[Willow]

...  I found that when I rolled off the throttle, the bike felt like I was running across the rumble strips that the highway department cuts into the sides of the lane pavement.  Roll on throttle, vibration goes away.  Roll off throttle, vibration comes back. At 70mph, the vibration is there, but a lot less noticeable.

Although both items are on different ends of the drive shaft, the vibration is coming from the u-loint.

The pinion cup and spline will have a minimal affect, if any regarding the vibration.

Actually, the description is exactly what a fading pinion cup/drive shaft feels like, although a U-joint can give you similar symptoms.

I tell you this resulting from personal experience.

[Rio Wil]

I still think the wear pattern on the driveshaft/pinion cup is very odd.  How can a half moon pattern be worn in each in the center portion of the splines.  I wonder if the drive shaft is bent or a piece of debris got caught up in the joint when it was last lubed. In another thread, there are pictures of mt splines that look a lot worse than these and there was no noticeable audible or vibration indication of a problem. Also a ujoint with as little looseness as being described here is not a issue either.....maybe when the cup was last reinstalled it had debris under the cup and it is actually wobbling....only problem with this is the splines should be worn on the ends and not so much in the middle....
Also if you think you have a ujoint with no looseness at all......try holding one end in a vice and use a large pair of channel locks on the free end to rotate the joint back and forth.  Even a new joint with a thousand miles will have a hair of play....JMHO

[Dr Bobs Patient]

Now I have gathered up the parts that I think I need.  Help with this list would be appreciated.  I got this info from hdlparts.com.  Are any of these out of stock at Honda?
   
42616-MAJ-G20   Thrust Washer #4 on Rear Wheel Drawing
91302-MA6-003   O-Ring (61X2) #19 on Rear Wheel Drawing
91358-MG9-003   O-Ring (50.5X3.5) #20 on Rear Wheel Drawing

40200-MZ0-A00   U-Joint #1 on Swingarm Drawing
40201-MZ0-A00   Drive Shaft #2 on Swingarm Drawing
40215-MN5-000   Spring #3 on Swingarm Drawing
40219-MG9-000   Circlip #4 on Swingarm Drawing
40221-MB0-000   Stopper Ring #5 on Swingarm Drawing
40222-MN5-000   Stopper #6 on Swingarm Drawing
52104-MZ0-A40   Joint Boot #8 on Swingarm Drawing
91261-ME9-005   Oil Seal (27X43X7) #16 on Swingarm Drawing

DBP

[pancho]

I still think the wear pattern on the driveshaft/pinion cup is very odd.  How can a half moon pattern be worn in each in the center portion of the splines.  I wonder if the drive shaft is bent or a piece of debris got caught up in the joint when it was last lubed. In another thread, there are pictures of mt splines that look a lot worse than these and there was no noticeable audible or vibration indication of a problem. Also a ujoint with as little looseness as being described here is not a issue either.....maybe when the cup was last reinstalled it had debris under the cup and it is actually wobbling....only problem with this is the splines should be worn on the ends and not so much in the middle....
Also if you think you have a ujoint with no looseness at all......try holding one end in a vice and use a large pair of channel locks on the free end to rotate the joint back and forth.  Even a new joint with a thousand miles will have a hair of play....JMHO

I'm thinking that a bad u joint would cause excessive wobble at the PC joint.........  OR, a wobbly output shaft.......  you may want to check the output shaft and make sure there is not play.

[Denny47]

One more o-ring for a total of three. #91356-MG9-003

[Dr Bobs Patient]

One more o-ring for a total of three. #91356-MG9-003

Thanks Denny

[Rio Wil]

Dr. B P ...........you say you can feel a minute amount of movement in the old ujoint.  If you hold one end in a vice or whatever, then use a pair of channel locks to grasp the free end and rotate it back and forth, does it magnify the movement.  I have a ujoint that has just a detectable amount of movement when holding it by hand, but when in a vice I can actually tell that one of the cups has enough wear that I can see and feel the movement within the cup.......and at that I can't decide if it is a good useable spare or to toss it.....

[Ricky-D]

I would say that it is not a "good useable spare".

***

[Rio Wil]

I think you are right Ricky-D......and perhaps I need to back off my comment that even a new ujoint will have detectable movement using the vice channel lock method until I can validate that. I am remembering all the ujoints over the years and the bad one I removed in the Valk several months.  It was bad enough the cups were loose in the yoke ears and there was considerable radial movement of the joint.

[Dr Bobs Patient]

Orderd all the parts today from HDL with some Belray grease and a n air filter.  Took the MOM2013 10% discount sale price at a total of $120.  Just can't wait to get my hands on em as I was riding daily and sure miss it!

Will post once I get to putting her back together.

DBP

[old2soon]

For your future reference Carolina Bike and Trike has 5 packs(total of 15 O-rings)that are the 3(5 each)that we need for the rear end service without buying metal parts. Hope this helps you. RIDE SAFE.