dark side question

[al v]

Ok, to the guys that are riding car tires, it was brought up that someone might see your car tire on your bike and be inclined to tell you why it is dangerous.

I've only had my car tire for a short while... it hasn't happened to me yet.

So, other than the "that won't work" and "you can't corner" arguments, what other arguments have you heard?

[Daniel Meyer]

Any version of "flaming death"! 

Also love the, "My mother's second-cousin's father-in-law's sister's BFF knew a guy whose uncle heard about a man that knew a guy that said he heard of a rider whose best friend's brother talked to a guy that heard a bike went down on some road, somewhere because the tire blew off the rim."

[G-Man]

Any version of "flaming death"! 

Also love the, "My mother's second-cousin's father-in-law's sister's BFF knew a guy whose uncle heard about a man that knew a guy that said he heard of a rider whose best friend's brother talked to a guy that heard a bike went down on some road, somewhere because the tire blew off the rim."

I know that guy!   

[Serk]

Your wife/girlfriend (Maybe both!) is gonna leave you!

Your dog will die.

Your laundry will have static cling.

Your name will legally be changed to Reggie.

The pH balance in your pool will get messed up.

Etc. etc. etc... (Thanks to Weird Al Yankovic for the ideas)

[trout dude]

HayHauler Got this answer for you the motorcycle dealers don't sell car tires
I saw his answer on another post and thought he nailed the answer  Thanks jimmy
   Trout Dude

[Fudd]

I have yet to find any credible evidence where a darkside tire caused an accident.  I've never heard of one 'popping' off the rim in a curve, like what I was warned about by 'knowledgeable' bikers prior to the installation of my first car tire. 

I have seen 'motorcycle' tires (both front and back) delaminate, causing wrecks in some cases, though.

[Toledo Mark]

Your wife/girlfriend (Maybe both!) is gonna leave you!

Your dog will die.

Your laundry will have static cling.

Your name will legally be changed to Reggie.

The pH balance in your pool will get messed up.

Etc. etc. etc... (Thanks to Weird Al Yankovic for the ideas)

So that's where the static kling comes from?

[old2soon]

I am WAY overdue on the flaming death thingy.   I'll have to look at my records to see HOW far overdue I is.   It is especially irksome when I have non riders telling me what will and won't wurk.   Mebbee da non riders are gubmint.   RIDE SAFE.

[Former BMW Guy]

Here is a nice long technical explanation:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

One of these days I'm gonna put a motorcycle tire on my car and see what happens; after all, they're interchangeable...right?

JP

[Liberty Bell]

I mentioned that when I need a front tire the next time I was thinking about a car tire to my buddy who does a lot of mechanic work...

At first he was like, I don't think that's such a good idea....

Then he was, "well, you got a trike so you're really not going to be leaning it....."
" Actually that might be a real good idea for you"......

[Moonshot_1]

Here is a nice long technical explanation:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

One of these days I'm gonna put a motorcycle tire on my car and see what happens; after all, they're interchangeable...right?

JP

That is a nice long technical explanation.

Got a few rub with it though.

When you compare a MT and CT right off the shelf, brand new, the MT has an edge performance wise.
But with my experience, after about 4k miles the performance of the MT will begin to quickly degrade. You wear a strip right down the center of the rear tire.

For those who regularly put on lots of miles, this is an issue. The last CT I had I changed out at 33k miles. Could have easily gone another 4k but was going on an extended trip and wanted a new tire to start. But even at 33k, I didn't notice any difference in it's performance.

I don't believe that the case is being made to run a CT on any kind of bike.
This is a limited application. Touring and heavy cruiser class of bikes.

For all the long technical explanation, the reality doesn't seem to support it. I would fully expect, through anecdotal and first hand reports, regular catastrophic failures reported. Particularly with this group.

Someone did a count at Inzane and came up with roughly 25% of the bikes were darksided.
Given our bikes are nearly 800# ridden by rather large riders, me included, riders who are in regular communication through this board, I would expect to see constant tales of woe and flaming death from CT use.

But we don't. Much less any with a common theme like the bead popping off.

We do see rather regular anecdotal and first hand reports of MC tires delaminating and self-destructing.

I do understand the part about friction being independent of surface area.
It is about pressure per square inch. The weight is constant. The smaller contact patch on a MT will have more weight per square inch at the contact patch than the larger contact patch of a CT. So the friction/traction doesn't not increase with surface area.

But, when the tire locks up and there is effectively no traction, the CT, in my experience, has less lateral movement and seems to stay upright as opposed to a MT that seems to harder to control in similar situations.

I'm on my 2nd CT. Performance wise, I'm pretty happy with it. This year we rode up Pike's Peak, Rocky Mountain Nat. Park, Iron Mountain road and Needles Hwy to name a few with out a second thought. I can out turn and out maneuver a lot of folks running MC tires.

Running a CT isn't for everyone. Not suggesting everyone should run a CT.

Just saying that the reality doesn't seem to really jive with what some of the experts profess to be fact.

[jurioste2]

I had the same question so I found this web site: http://www.ridermagazine.com/browse-by-type/tires/tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-motorcycles.htm/

I would never do it I just don't think its safe but that is my option. every one is entitled to do what ever they want to with there bikes.

its a good article

[Hooter]

Here is a nice long technical explanation:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

One of these days I'm gonna put a motorcycle tire on my car and see what happens; after all, they're interchangeable...right?

JP

You can't do that....You will have: gout, the poops, go cross eyed, hair loss and your teeth will fall out like a tweaking meth head.

[al v]

One of the articles presented, which I found ineresting, says that friction is equal regardless of surface area and that the only way to increase traction is to use a stickier rubber. The article also points out that high performance tires on sports cars are wider so as to spread out the load on the stickier rubber so that the tire will last longer. Those arguments do make sense.

Then when I compare my experience of an E3 to a yokohoma avid envigor, I know the envigor has way more traction. (Not in question)  Hence, I must conclude the envigor is a stickier rubber than the E3 spread out over a much wider area, which is why it last longer. It seem to make sense that in order for the E3 with its much smaller contact patch to last, it would have to use a much harder rubber.  So, max traction is about the rubber and not the contact patch.

The article suggest that the main reason for not running a car tire is the bead differences. Has anyone heard of a bead coming off?

The article also has a picture of car tire on a motorcycle rim and there is a line on the tire that indicates where the car tire rim should be when fully seated. On my bike, when I look at that line, it is not nearly as different as the picture in the article. Is the valkyrie rim the same as all other motorcycle rims?

[Former BMW Guy]

Here is a nice long technical explanation:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

One of these days I'm gonna put a motorcycle tire on my car and see what happens; after all, they're interchangeable...right?

JP

You can't do that....You will have: gout, the poops, go cross eyed, hair loss and your teeth will fall out like a tweaking meth head.

    

[Daniel Meyer]

The article suggest that the main reason for not running a car tire is the bead differences. Has anyone heard of a bead coming off?

Within the limits of my ability to measure (a few thousandths) the bead on the Valkyrie rim is identical in depth and profile to the bead on the mag wheels on my wife's Altima (the only ones I've ever had handy to measure).

[Moonshot_1]

Reading this thread and had a thought.

Being told by experts, scientist, engineers and the like that putting a car tire on a motorcycle is a bad idea and won't work. We see their equations and other proofs and are told our belief in them should be absolute.

So why do we have test pilots? Shouldn't need them. Should just build it like the experts, scientist, engineers say and go.

But bad things happen in spite of all the experts, scientist, engineers.

So it should be possible that good things could happen too.

[Molasses]

First CT I ran, bought and got it installed at the local Discount Tire.  They had a young crew of workers there and the whole bunch from the manager on duty down to the guys in the service bays were interested in what I was doing.  One of 'em mentioned that his dad had a Harley and he'd be getting his opinion and additionally, the whole crew wanted me to come back once I had it balanced (wouldn't fit on their balancer) and on the bike to see it in action.  I came back and did a bunch of figure 8's, circles and chicanes in their parking lot while some of 'em darned near laid down on the ground to get a good look at what the tire was doing.  The one with the Harley-riding dad said all his father had to say was to sputter "It's inappropriate useage, putting a car tire on a bike."

As an aside, the economy took a downturn between when I got that first CT and when it wore out...went back and the joint was completely staffed with uptight middle-aged men that gave every appearance of being underemployed laid-off middle managment types.  Wouldn't even talk about selling me a tire once I made the mistake of mentioning what it was for.  In the two years since then, it's gone back the other direction and the young fellow at the counter was only too happy to talk about what they had in stock that might be suited for motorcycle use and suggested the Michelin that's on there now. 

[CajunRider]

Thus far... the only negative comments I've had was on various forums. 

When someone in person notices, it's usually something along the lines of "cool..." or "damn, that huge!!" or "does that actually work??".

[Willow]

I find it almost laughable that riders are willing to take tire type advice from either someone who is one who has an axe to grind (such as a tire company employee) or a rider who has never experienced the difference.

Each type has both advantages and disadvantages.

[Gavin_Sons]

I work with a bunch of bikers, mostly harley and one goldwinger. The goldwinger told one young harley rider about my car tire. At the next break he asked if I was retarded for putting a car tire on my bike and he had never heard of that before this was just a day after he show me the video of him falling on his face doing 60 because he tried to stand on jis seat. I just said apparently not as retarded as you trying to stand on your seat and falling on your face. He said good point then talked about the car tire. Now he wants one.

[R J]

Someone up the line here said that they couldn't see a traction improvement in mt vs ct.

Before MGM became a Trike, I could actually bawl the motorcycle tire on a launch, and a good chirp hitting 2nd gear and a little chirp hitting 3rd.   It made no difference what I was running on the rear.   I have ran Metzler, Avon, Done Flop, & 1 other brand, can't think of it's name.

With a car tire, it just took off like a scalded dog on takeoff and no further squeal, chirp or etc.     If it was on blacktop, you could see a dark streak till I hit 5th laying on the pavement.    It was letting loose a little traction, but not enough to spin the tire and make it smoke.

Put a car tire on.  That was the last of spinning the rear wheel in any gear.

PS:   I weight in at 252#.

[al v]

I find it almost laughable that riders are willing to take tire type advice from either someone who is one who has an axe to grind (such as a tire company employee) or a rider who has never experienced the difference.

Each type has both advantages and disadvantages.

I talked to several guys riding car tires before deciding. One guy even switched back to a motorcycle tire, so I was lucky to hear the good and bad from guys that have actually done it. I then researched the narrowest (most motorcycle like) tire I could find on tirerack. That was the avid envigor. (The taxi tire was taller, otherwise that would have been my choice) Then checked this board and confirmed that all the comments on the tire were positive. Everything I was told ahead of time was pretty much spot on.

Everyone I took advice from warned me that it was different and there is a chance you might not like it. Now that I have a car tire, i would be sure to give the same advice. I would not fault anyone for saying they don't like the difference or not want to go through the expense to find out they don't like it. It is a $100 gamble. Those would be solid arguements against a car tire.

[Fritz The Cat]

I have noticed absolutely no difference in handling since I put the CT on. I think people who comment on hard cornering are full of BS. Probably never rode on a CT before.

[Jabba]

I like them.  CT's that is.  I have 2.  I'll soon have a 2nd round of them. 

I don't profess that they are BETTER.  What drove me to a CT was two things.  Cost, and the fact that between my wife and I and our gear... we loaded about 700 lbs onto our IS when we travel.  I just felt better with a tire back there BUILT for that.

The $100 and 20K miles is a bonus.

My first CT was on my STD, and frankly, I didn't have the $300 for a new ME880.  And I tried the Falken out of desperation, and expected to hate it.  I was one of the guys that kept saying... "It CAN'T be as good!". 

I rode that tire 1000 miles before I felt the first twinge of anything that let me know it WASN'T a MT. 

Like everyone says... everyone should do what they want.  I trust MILLIONS of car tire miles in this club.

Squealy always answers the same way when anyone says... "You can't TURN a motorcycle with a CT on the back." 

He simply answers... "Smokin' Joe, look him up." 

Jabba

[Liberty Bell]

IF we listen to the ExPerts, a Bumble-Bee can't fly either....   

So it should be come intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that one MUST NEVER put a car tire on a Yellow & Black Valkyrie.......   The reasoning being that she'd take to the air and the FAA doesn't recognize motorcycle endorcements... 

[DarkSideR]

Another argument you might hear is that the manufacturer doesn't recommend anything but original OEM parts on the bike. This argument as laughable because of the range of modifactions available out there. If we all held this belief true we would not have trikes, raked front ends, upgraded suspension, trailers, Super Valks... The list of possible modifications is very long, and all according to the manufacturer shouldn't be done.

Rider Magazine actually called for Insurance Companies to reject coverage on bikes with CT's. I cancelled my subscription.

If you get the nah sayer all you need to tell them is the proof is I'm the pudding. I have 17k miles on my CT most done in the treacherous rocky mountains of Colorado, and have no issues what-so-ever.

[KSDragonRider]

I like them.  CT's that is.  I have 2.  I'll soon have a 2nd round of them. 

I don't profess that they are BETTER.  What drove me to a CT was two things.  Cost, and the fact that between my wife and I and our gear... we loaded about 700 lbs onto our IS when we travel.  I just felt better with a tire back there BUILT for that.

The $100 and 20K miles is a bonus.

My first CT was on my STD, and frankly, I didn't have the $300 for a new ME880.  And I tried the Falken out of desperation, and expected to hate it.  I was one of the guys that kept saying... "It CAN'T be as good!". 

I rode that tire 1000 miles before I felt the first twinge of anything that let me know it WASN'T a MT. 

Like everyone says... everyone should do what they want.  I trust MILLIONS of car tire miles in this club.

Squealy always answers the same way when anyone says... "You can't TURN a motorcycle with a CT on the back." 

He simply answers... "Smokin' Joe, look him up." 

Jabba

This was me.  I wore the old E3 out, did not have the money for a new tire and still have enough for my next trip.. so i went with the falkin as well, now i have the yoko.  the yoko turns better, but took me a bit longer messing with air pressure. 

my wife and i loaded on the bike with our gear is about 600#, and then our trailer loaded was about 500# for the last week.  We put 2200 miles on the bike in the mountains and plains.  1500 of that or more was with the trailer loaded heavy.  I never even in the rain felt that tire slip and never felt it be square.  I say this one is a keeper!  Still less than 100 to the door.

[Gryphon Rider]

I do understand the part about friction being independent of surface area.
It is about pressure per square inch. The weight is constant. The smaller contact patch on a MT will have more weight per square inch at the contact patch than the larger contact patch of a CT. So the friction/traction doesn't not increase with surface area.

But, when the tire locks up and there is effectively no traction, the CT, in my experience, has less lateral movement and seems to stay upright as opposed to a MT that seems to harder to control in similar situations.

The theory that wider tires don't have more traction is another one that just doesn't hold water in the real world.  As long as the vehicle provides enough down-force (usually provided by weight, but also by aerodynamics in the case of race cars) to make the rubber deform and interlock with the road surface, a wider tire will have more traction than an otherwise equal narrower one.  The reason for this is that traction is not only provided by friction, but also by resistance to shearing of the rubber.  Shear-resistance is directly proportional to the area of the shear plane, thus more square inches of contact patch means more traction, up to the point where the vertical load on that tire is spread out to the point that there isn't enough load per square inch to force the rubber into the irregularities of the pavement.

The idea that a sliding tire has no traction is also false, with the exception of a condition like hydroplaning, where the rubber is separated from the road surface.  horizontal forces increase to the point where the tire starts slipping, then decreases somewhat, but at there is still significant friction.  If this were not true, then if you locked up the brakes on your car, the car would stop no faster than if you slipped the transmission in neutral and let it coast to a stop without using the brakes.  What IS true, is that if you are properly using the brakes on your motorcycle, by the time your rear wheel locks up the vast majority of the weight of the bike has transferred to the front tire, and the braking assistance provided by the locked rear tire is minimal.

[MP]

If width did not matter at all, why do high horsepower drag racers use wide tires?  They are very expensive.  If a tire 1/2 as wide would have as much traction, they would be running that!

[al v]

More debate on the width verses traction can be found here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=330790

[musclehead]

Here is a nice long technical explanation:
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/400426-design-differences-between-car-motorcycle-rim-tire.html

One of these days I'm gonna put a motorcycle tire on my car and see what happens; after all, they're interchangeable...right?

JP

You can't do that....You will have: gout, the poops, go cross eyed, hair loss and your teeth will fall out like a tweaking meth head.

so I'll look like I normally do 

[Former BMW Guy]

People can justify and rationalize just about anything and have a tendency to believe what is fact only if it agrees with their opinion.
People pick and choose where and how to spend their money....chrome vs tires.....hmmmm...looks like chrome wins in some cases.

JP

[al v]

People can justify and rationalize just about anything and have a tendency to believe what is fact only if it agrees with their opinion.
People pick and choose where and how to spend their money....chrome vs tires.....hmmmm...looks like chrome wins in some cases.

JP

I agree that people find information to justify/rationalize their desires. That's human nature. Some of that is part of this conversation I'm sure.

I do think there are several reasons for choosing a car tire... some might be looking for better traction, some like the cost savings, some like the looks, some prefer the ride...

In almost all cases, the car tire is going to be cheaper, especially if you figure over the life of the vehicle. So technically, that's more money available for chrome if you so wish...

My wife is definitely in favor of the cheaper part. Though, to be honest, I don't think I'm saving anything overall, I just find other improvements to make or trips to take.

[Hoser]

We been hashing this out for ten years, I know new folk show up that need to learn, but we shouldn't squabble about it.  I am burned out on this issue.  No argument here, my opinion is and always has been,  "Ride What You Want"  That is the only thing we all need to know. To quote an old comic, Guess I will exit, stage left.      Hoser   

[Former BMW Guy]

Here is an article from a legal perspective:
http://www.personalinjury-attorney.com/accident-attorney-blog/skimping-on-motorcycle-tires-may-cost-you/

JP

[Moonshot_1]

Here is an article from a legal perspective:
http://www.personalinjury-attorney.com/accident-attorney-blog/skimping-on-motorcycle-tires-may-cost-you/

JP

from your legal eagle

"Car tires, on the other hand, are less crowned and can slide or fail entirely under the stress of running on their sidewalls."

The Car tire never runs on it's sidewall. Significant amount of metal parts must be ground off the bike (large touring or cruiser) before you can exceed the inherent (not designed) performance limits of the tire.

Motorcycle tires have been known to entirely fail under the conditions they are specifically designed to normally run in. Shouldn't run them either.

[Willow]

Here is an article from a legal perspective:
http://www.personalinjury-attorney.com/accident-attorney-blog/skimping-on-motorcycle-tires-may-cost-you/

JP

I read the article.  More BS by someone with no experience.

As to the legal perspective, it would be more meaningful to hear of actual litigation cases (Percentages perhaps) rather than empty words by someone with no experience.

[Former BMW Guy]

Well....I don't have any experience either but I do have enough motorcycling experience to know that its a false economy to install a car tire on a motorcycle rim. The inherent downsides, as pointed out in the articles posted here, far outweigh the couple of hundred bucks savings.
Two things are obvious....they are less expensive and last longer; everything else is pure subjectivity.
Just my humble opinion.

JP

[Serk]

Valkyrie Dedicated Motorcycle Tire:

Valkyrie MC Tire

Valkyrie Dark Side Tire:

VALKYRIE DARKSIDE VIDEO

Those two videos are what "converted" me to the Church of Dark Side (Since it's evidently become a religious issue with some people.)

Ride what you want... *Shrug*