UPDATE: rider dies during msf course

[justintyper]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/10/elbridge_woman_dies_during_motorcycle_training_class_outside_shopingtown_mall_in.html#incart_m-rpt-2  this was just terrible to read about. this is where i took my msf class


http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/10/medical_condition_responsible_for_elbridge_woman.html#incart_m-rpt-2

[MacDragon]

That's tragic... way too bad.

[Momz]

I can't speak for the state of NY, but in MI we have MSF classes for three wheeled cycles only and a "cycle" endorsement is for the type of vehicle that you are riding. You may have a three and a two wheel endorsement on your license.

The MSF offers "spyder' training courses, and a spyder is endorsed as such. A normal two wheel cycle endorsement is not legally sufficient to pilot a Spyder.

[MP]

I can't speak for the state of NY, but in MI we have MSF classes for three wheeled cycles only and a "cycle" endorsement is for the type of vehicle that you are riding. You may have a three and a two wheel endorsement on your license.

The MSF offers "spyder' training courses, and a spyder is endorsed as such. A normal two wheel cycle endorsement is not legally sufficient to pilot a Spyder.

Depends on state.  ND is two wheel only, good for three.  Do not know if can take a 3 wheel test.  But, a two takes care of everything.

[ricoman]

In sunny Florida a motorcycle endorsement allows you to ride trikes or sidecar rigs as well as motorcycles.
A trike/sidecar endorsement only does not allow you to ride motorcycles.
I recently took a sidecar class so I can be more comfortable on my Ural.

[MarkT]

Harley culture: "SEE?  THAT'S why we don't use the front brake!"  Like it's possible for a big heavy low-slung cruiser to do a "stoppie".  Of course they don't need to worry about any incidents happening to them at MSF courses. 

[ricoman]

A sad situation for sure.
Most MSF classes I've seen use 250 Honda Rebels or Suzuki's. Neither is likely capable of doing a stoppie in my opinion.
She could have locked the front wheel, turned it, and high sided. This would look to some as though the "back of the bike came up" as was mentioned.
Hope more info comes out.

Stories like this will never stop me from using the front brake.

[cookiedough]

so sad, totally freak accident am sure.

To have a course bike make the driver going say 10-20 mph apply the front brake so hard it makes the rider fly over the top or sideways if turning the front handlebars at the same time, it has to be a one in a million freak accident for that to happen.  I doubt the course bike was a crotch rocket, but you never know?

I hear even those 250cc kawa ninja's can be pretty fast for such a small displacement bike.  My neighbor who owns a kawi shop the past 30+ years says even those small 250cc ninja's will go 100 mph top speed, now that is pretty scary.

[Jess Tolbirt]

a 250  yamaha will push a mini sprint race car over 120 in the dirt.

[ricoman]

a 250  yamaha will push a mini sprint race car over 120 in the dirt.

hey, Jess, I think you mean micro-sprint for the 250.
Mini-sprint is 600cc. from what I can find.

[Lil D]

Terribly sad..... Hard to believe it could happen in the class. We took it too......full gear and pretty low speed.....

[justintyper]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/10/motorcyclist_in_training_class_riding_slowly_before_fatal_accident.html#incart_river_default here's an update... seems she may have high-sided she was riding a kawasaki 125 basically the same kind of bike i used 3 years ago  they are checking it for mechanical failure. i cant even imagine seeing this happen to someone i love (her husband was in the class as well). this was day two of the class so at the end of the day everybody would do what amounts to a road test one at a time in order to get a waiver for a nys dmv road test so by the time of the accident she would have had close to 8 hours of riding time.

[BradValk48237]

Panicked and put her foot down... and caught under rear wheel or peg?

B

[Daddie O]

In California, you don't need a motorcycle endorsement to pilot a 3 wheeled vehicle.  An auto endorsement is all you need.

[bagelboy]

Some things, no matter how terrible, happen for unexplained reasons. For whatever reason, she was called home!

[Chrisj CMA]

Very sad.  And not an easy problem to fix.  I dont know what her history is, but if someone has zero experience with motorcycles, I dont think its possible to make them a safe rider in two days.  I have taught several young people (male and female) how to ride a motorcycle and It is very common when experience is low and anxiety is high that a new rider loses awareness of what each hand is doing and sometimes will lose the ability to command one hand to do one thing while the other hand is supposed to do something totally different.  The result can and does cause a beginning rider to open the throttle all the way when what they really wanted to do was use the brake.

Sounds like she got scared and got confused on the controls. 

If someone I knew wanted to take a first time rider class I would make sure they have hours and hours of "playing" around of a motorcycle before going to take the class so they dont get so overwhelmed

So unfortunate

[MAD6Gun]

 Very tragic.......... 


My step son Anthony wanted to get a bike this summer. I told him he had to take the course. He got himself a 06 Honda Shadow Aero. He had ridden dirt bikes and such when he was a kid but never a street bike. After he got the bike but before he did the course I took him to a large parking lot and got him started with the basics. Did well. When he took the course I stopped out there on the Valk and watched for awhile. He did well but some of his classmates just could not get down the basic stuff. One woman could not get stopping down at all. But that is the place to find out not on the street.

When Anthony got his endorsement we went for a ride. He did good. He has since gone to the Air Force Museum with my brothers and I (about 120 miles one way). He also went with Twila and I to the Dragon Roundup in Jasper. From what I was told he did real well in a group in the curves.

Years ago my 70 some year old Uncle got a burr in his butt after his wife died that he was going to ride a bike to FL to visit his brother. He called my dad (Solo1) to get him started. He even bought himself a older Goldwing. He dropped that bike several times in the Garage. Dad told him to take the beginners course before he tried to ride. Keep in mind this man could not even drive a stick shift car much less a motorcycle. He took the course but he dropped the bike many times. The instructors told him he should not be riding a bike. They gave him his money back. He was Furious with my dad. Said he sabotaged him. I don't think he talked to my dad anytime after that. He died a few years ago.  Sorry for the hijack. But my point is some people should know their limitations.....

[WilliamRS]

If someone I knew wanted to take a first time rider class I would make sure they have hours and hours of "playing" around of a motorcycle before going to take the class so they dont get so overwhelmed

So unfortunate

The purpose of the course is to teach First Time Riders (and others) how to ride and how to ride safely.  In some ways, it is better to not go to the class with bad habits from 'playing' around that need to be retrained

[BF]

Very tragic.......... 


My step son Anthony wanted to get a bike this summer. I told him he had to take the course. He got himself a 06 Honda Shadow Aero. He had ridden dirt bikes and such when he was a kid but never a street bike. After he got the bike but before he did the course I took him to a large parking lot and got him started with the basics. Did well. When he took the course I stopped out there on the Valk and watched for awhile. He did well but some of his classmates just could not get down the basic stuff. One woman could not get stopping down at all. But that is the place to find out not on the street.

When Anthony got his endorsement we went for a ride. He did good. He has since gone to the Air Force Museum with my brothers and I (about 120 miles one way). He also went with Twila and I to the Dragon Roundup in Jasper. From what I was told he did real well in a group in the curves.

Years ago my 70 some year old Uncle got a burr in his butt after his wife died that he was going to ride a bike to FL to visit his brother. He called my dad (Solo1) to get him started. He even bought himself a older Goldwing. He dropped that bike several times in the Garage. Dad told him to take the beginners course before he tried to ride. Keep in mind this man could not even drive a stick shift car much less a motorcycle. He took the course but he dropped the bike many times. The instructors told him he should not be riding a bike. They gave him his money back. He was Furious with my dad. Said he sabotaged him. I don't think he talked to my dad anytime after that. He died a few years ago.  Sorry for the hijack. But my point is some people should know their limitations.....

When I took my MSF class, there was an older gentleman in the class also.  Looked to be maybe late 60's to early 70's. 

Seemed he wanted to relive his youth or something....it was obvious he'd never rode before, or at the very least, it had been decades since he rode last. 

He was very nervous on the little Honda 250 and not very coordinated with it. 

They failed him.  He wasn't too happy about it either. 

[Chrisj CMA]

If someone I knew wanted to take a first time rider class I would make sure they have hours and hours of "playing" around of a motorcycle before going to take the class so they dont get so overwhelmed

So unfortunate

The purpose of the course is to teach First Time Riders (and others) how to ride and how to ride safely.  In some ways, it is better to not go to the class with bad habits from 'playing' around that need to be retrained

totally disagree......by "playing around" you learn by operating the machine what the clutch is for and how everything works.....you get used to the controls so when you get in the class you can actually concentrate on what they are teaching.  If a first riders course was two weeks and not just two days, and it included hours of familiarization before the technical stuff started then Id agree with you.

Everyone I know that is a safe rider today messed around with mini bikes and small motorcycles for a long time before even thinking about doing it the "right" way and we are safe educated riders today and Im glad I had that prior experience

[Gryphon Rider]

I was an instructor for six years, and was always in the top 4 or 5 instructors for total teaching hours at a school that put through approximately 1000-1200 students a year, so I've seen a lot of new riders.  Students with previous motorcycle experience, as a rule, do better in the course than virgin riders.  Yes, some of them have bad habits that need correcting, but we instructors were quite happy to nag them, and for the most part at the end of the course they could ride without those habits being evident.  I would have been happy if, in the weeks preceding the course, the students brushed the cobwebs off of their bicycles and spent a few hours a week riding them.  The skills transfer readily.

Our school offered the course in weekday evening format, or Saturday and Sunday full days.  The strugglers were always better off if they took the week-long evening course.  It gave them a chance to subconsciously digest what they had just learned before being thrown into the next thing.  Some people simply didn't have the physical stamina to spend a whole day out in the elements, usually with a body full of tension and a fully focused mind.  This was more intense than some had experienced in years.  At the end of Saturday, I was looking at a group of people that were completely exhausted, especially the middle-aged and older women.

We had a few bikes in our fleet that were susceptible to lifting the back tire under extreme braking.  Some of the full-sized (200cc+) dirt bikes and the newer CBR125R "sport" bikes could do it.  When one CBR rider went over the bars, I was very glad the bike landed upside down beside him instead of on top of him.  One instructor tells a story about how when doing the collision avoidance exercise (student rides straight at the instructor until signalled to either swerve left or right), a petite lady managed to high-side the bike, flew through the air towards the instructor, who caught her with one arm under her back and the other under her knees.  Teaching is one of the most fun ways to make a few bucks on the side!

[Willow]

Monday morning quarterbacks (a euphamism) are usually full of crap.

There are thousands and thousands of riders who have benefitted from attending MSF courses.  Let's not get carried away with pour analysis of one freak accident.

[Gryphon Rider]

Monday morning quarterbacks (a euphamism) are usually full of crap.

There are thousands and thousands of riders who have benefitted from attending MSF courses.  Let's not get carried away with pour analysis of one freak accident.

Was that in any way a response to my posting?

[Chrisj CMA]

Monday morning quarterbacks (a euphamism) are usually full of crap.

There are thousands and thousands of riders who have benefitted from attending MSF courses.  Let's not get carried away with pour analysis of one freak accident.

So, who said there is no benefit to taking MSF courses?  And why is it getting "carried away" to talk about safe ways to begin learning how to operate a motorcycle?

[Willow]

Was that in any way a response to my posting?

No.  If I respond to a particular post I try to include it's quote.

So, who said there is no benefit to taking MSF courses?  And why is it getting "carried away" to talk about safe ways to begin learning how to operate a motorcycle? 

I know I didn't.  Did someone else?

It's getting carried away when some of us spend unneeded time discussing why it was the MSF course's fault the accident happened and how they should do it differently.  It was tragic and very rare accident.  I think some folks in the thread seemed to understand that.

People have differing views.  Some do and some don't make sense in retrospect.  I guess we people  have differing views on that too. 

[R J]

On top of what the Gunny says, all instructors get the same way to teach the course.

Now, tell me 2 people, yeah just 2 who can attand the class and then go teach it word for word.

[justintyper]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/10/medical_condition_responsible_for_elbridge_woman.html#incart_m-rpt-2 update. preliminary autopsy results point to the deceased having an undiagnosed heart condition  that most likely lead to her death.

[Spirited-6]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/10/medical_condition_responsible_for_elbridge_woman.html#incart_m-rpt-2 update. preliminary autopsy results point to the deceased having an undiagnosed heart condition  that most likely lead to her death.
[/q


I thought as much , the way she was dressed would given all kinds of protection. Glad they found the cause of death.