Words from the Master: Crashing

[Freep]

Words from the Master.
Dan Nochta is the Lead Instructor for the Phoenix PD Motor School:

"If you're going to collide with something, keep your bike upright and reduce your speed as much as possible before hitting whatever it is.  This will help decrease the amount of damage to your motorcycle and will help reduce the degree of injury to the rider.  This is not to say you can't be injured at slow speeds, but the goal is to reduce any injury if possible.  Remember the old saying, "Speed Kills." 

The best way to reduce your speed is to use both brakes.  If you fail to use both brakes, you are not achieving your maximum braking capability.  The most efficient way to stop a motorcycle is to use your brakes to the point of impending skid or just prior to locking up.  It is said that as much as 80% of your braking efficiency is attributed to your front brake.  This obviously depends on the bike as well as the proficiency of the rider.  When you lockup the tires on your bike, your braking efficiency is decreased and if the front tire is locked up, it won't be long before you are down.  There is much more which goes into proper braking techniques, but suffice it to say you want to burn off energy.  The best way to accomplish this is by using the brakes as they are designed.  Properly used brakes dissipate heat (energy) much better than a tire sliding on asphalt or a bike sliding on it's side.   Therefore, properly used brakes will slow a motorcycle down much faster then the alternatives.  I recommend all riders take a class in proper braking techniques.  In my opinion proper braking procedures are the single most important aspect of riding a motorcycle and done properly will save your life.

There are still riders out there who think the best course of action to avoid a collision is to lay the bike down.  This is certainly not my recommendation.  A motorcycle sliding on it's side will travel a lot further than a motorcycle upright and braking properly.  As a result you are going to hit whatever it is you are trying to avoid at a much greater speed than you would if you kept the motorcycle upright and braked properly.  Once the motorcycle has been laid down, you have also lost any control you might have had with the motorcycle upright.  I have seen inexperienced riders lay their bikes down, in an attempt to avoid a collision, when all they needed to do is stay upright and properly brake. Had they properly braked, they would have avoided the collision all together. Otherwise, what they were trying to avoid no longer became a hazard and they would have ridden right past the threat.  However, because they laid their bike down, they created damage to their motorcycle and injury to themselves.  Unless you are a stunt rider, I would never recommend laying your motorcycle down to avoid a collision.

There are some who say you should stay with the bike if it does go down and others who say you should get away from it. First let me say you may not have a choice, that choice may be made for you.  There are valid arguments to both sides. What I will say is; if you choose to stay with the bike you don't want to be caught between the bike and the object you are trying to avoid.  The bike has momentum and could possibly crush you if you are caught in the middle.  Each situation is unique, so I can't and won't give you a definitive answer on what you should or shouldn't do.  What I would recommend is that you attempt to stay upright if at all possible.  If you're going to hit something, scrub off as much speed as you can, hang on and hit it at the slowest speed you can achieve."             

[..]

Your front brake is your friend  

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/braking-tips.htm

Also look where you want the bike to go.

Looking at the hazard will generally inexorably draw you to it.

[HayHauler]

Your front brake is your friend  

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/braking-tips.htm

Also look where you want the bike to go.

Looking at the hazard will generally inexorably draw you to it.

This is as important as using both brakes.  Look where you want to go, not at the obstacle. 
Thanks Britman. 

Hay
Jimmyt

[old2soon]

Saturday at the Funeral I was talking to a LOT of other riders. More than one had told me in the course of our conversation that in their riding career a few of them had to "lay er down". And I asked most of them-what-yer brakes failed?? Blank looks before and after I splained that by using the front brakes you may not have had to "lay er down". Found out all of them did not believe me.  Looks of disbelief and derision ran rampant. RIDE SAFE.

[Moonshot_1]

You don't "Lay'er down" you lose control.

[BF]

You don't "Lay'er down" you lose control.

If you feel ya gotta lay-er-down, then you've already lost any control that you might would have had otherwise. 

[rocketray]

and i keep hearing  the car tire guys say that car tire on the back sure helps them stop.......I try to explain they are supposed to get .....at least on a modern sportbike.... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

[Skinhead]

and i keep hearing  the car tire guys say that car tire on the back sure helps them stop.......I try to explain they are supposed to get .....at least on a modern sportbike.... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

If You Get 100% From Front Brake, Why Add A Rear?  Could Save Manuturers some  $.

[solo1]

The front brake does most of the stopping but don't forget that the rear brake will do its part especially if you're carrying a touring load behind your seat. On the sidecar rig, I found that the rear wheel with a CT had a lot of traction because of more weight due to the sidecar load. It was almost impossible to slide the rear tire, don't ask me how I knew.

Practice, practice, and practice makes you know how fast you can stop with BOTH brakes.

[..]

and i keep hearing  the car tire guys say that car tire on the back sure helps them stop.......I try to explain they are supposed to get .....at least on a modern sportbike.... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

If You Get 100% From Front Brake, Why Add A Rear?  Could Save Manuturers some  $.

Cause you ned the rear when doing very slow speed manouvers 

Using the front generally dumps you on the ground. 

[Skinhead]

and i keep hearing  the car tire guys say that car tire on the back sure helps them stop.......I try to explain they are supposed to get .....at least on a modern sportbike.... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

If You Get 100% From Front Brake, Why Add A Rear?  Could Save Manuturers some  $.

I posted the above from my phone, it doesn't work well on this forum.  

The only way you get 100% from the front brake is if you are doing a stoppie, something I wouldn't recommend in an emergency situation or with a passenger, or on a valk.  But hey, if you have the skills, go for it.

[Skinhead]

and i keep hearing  the car tire guys say that car tire on the back sure helps them stop.......I try to explain they are supposed to get .....at least on a modern sportbike.... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

If You Get 100% From Front Brake, Why Add A Rear?  Could Save Manuturers some  $.

Cause you ned the rear when doing very slow speed manouvers 

Using the front generally dumps you on the ground. 

I stand by my first post, for slow speed manouvers you could employ the Fred Flintstone technique.   

[..]

and i keep hearing  the car tire guys say that car tire on the back sure helps them stop.......I try to explain they are supposed to get .....at least on a modern sportbike.... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

If You Get 100% From Front Brake, Why Add A Rear?  Could Save Manuturers some  $.

Cause you ned the rear when doing very slow speed manouvers 

Using the front generally dumps you on the ground. 

I stand by my first post, for slow speed manouvers you could employ the Fred Flintstone technique.   

It is a shame when you see this technique being used by so many riders.

About 2 miles per hour and down come the feet into the training wheels position ready to do the duck walk.

[Willow]

... 100% of their braking from the FRONT BRAKE....and get boy are you stupid looks...I would assume 90% of a valks stopping power is the front brake

The looks are understandable.

This is a demonstration of how misconceptions can indeed be on either end.

[Master Blaster]

kinda like what most pilots know, you dont quit flying the aircraft if you are about to crash.

[.]

I suppose it's just as well that "layin er down" isn't a reliable method for crash avoidance (which stands to reason as "layin er down" probably is a crash in itself-technically speaking) as I'm not even sure I could make a motorcycle lay down on purpose.

I have heard different things regarding what percentage of your braking is in the front and what is in the rear but as long as both add up to 100 percent I'm covered. I don't plan on hitting anything (who does?) but if I ever do I'd like to be moving as slowly as possible upright on both wheels. 

[Mapper]

I have limited riding experience compared to most here. 

I enjoy the stopping power of the front brakes but noticed that if I have not properly judged the necessary speed for entering a curve on a twisty road, the back brake allows me to correct my speed with no effect to handling.  Using the front brakes in a sharp curve tended to straighten out my bike.  This was noticed on CA 36, a 2 lane road between I-5 and the coast over mountains and 140 miles of twists and turns, and a few decreasing radius turns.

I agree 100% about the use of the front brakes in general, but is what I said about the use of the back brakes consistent with what you more experienced riders know? (I have about 8,000 miles riding experience, most done on the Valk in less than one year).

Thanks for the posts!  Always looking to improve and gain knowledge and wisdom

[..]

I have limited riding experience compared to most here.  

I enjoy the stopping power of the front brakes but noticed that if I have not properly judged the necessary speed for entering a curve on a twisty road, the back brake allows me to correct my speed with no effect to handling.  Using the front brakes in a sharp curve tended to straighten out my bike.  This was noticed on CA 36, a 2 lane road between I-5 and the coast over mountains and 140 miles of twists and turns, and a few decreasing radius turns.

I agree 100% about the use of the front brakes in general, but is what I said about the use of the back brakes consistent with what you more experienced riders know? (I have about 8,000 miles riding experience, most done on the Valk in less than one year).

Thanks for the posts!  Always looking to improve and gain knowledge and wisdom

That big gyroscopic front wheel on the Valkyrie does want to stand up straigh if you front brake.

You can just use some muscle and keep the bike leaning over.

HOWEVER if you grab the front brake in a bend without thinking about the muscle and leaning the stand up will catch you unawares. So practice, practice, practice. It needs to become an automatic act not a response.

Trail braking ie rear brake is a different kettle of fish. Gently, you don't want to lock up the rear wheel cause that leads you into another BIG problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Ideally of course you should be at the correct speed to enter the corner but when TSHTF you need to know what to do. Practice, practice, practice.

[DIGGER]

I've laid bikes down several times in my riding career.   Topped a hill once to find everyone stopped.  I don't think you conciously lay down a bike in a crash stop it's just that when you lock a bike up the ass end tends to come around on ya.  Usually you don't have time to think......it's not like "ok, I'll grab the front brake and use it till just about locked up and just keep the bike up till I hit the stopped car."     It's more like "OH CRAP..GRAB THE FRONT BRAKE AND GIVE IT ALL YOU CAN AND THE REAR BRAKE AS HARD AS YOU CAN".....you are in a panic with just seconds to react and the normal reaction is to do everything possible to STOP THAT BIKE before impact.  Next thing you know the rear of the bike is in front of ya and you are going down.    In 1999 I had the worst wreck of my riding career and lost my BMW K1000 in a curve out in the country all by myself.  Early morning and dew on the road and my front tire slipped and I was on the ground sliding.  Got pretty messed up and totaled my bike.  All my riding friends came to see me in the hospital and each one said "Man....why didn't you do this....or why didn't you do that."    Man I'm telling you.....I was riding.....then I was sliding down the pavement at 55 mph.  My point is, in a panic stop I don't think your reaction time is quick enough to do everything right.  You just react and rely on all your training and experience to get you out of this mess. 

[..]

An additioon for Mapper.

Try going out and finding a long curve. Get into it at a reasonable speed not crazy.

Apply a little, I said LITTLE front brake to scrub off 1 or 3 miles an hour and feel how the bike reacts. Thne ease off the front brake.

Do this a few hundred times over the next 6 months riding and then try applying a little, I said LITTLE, more pressure and feel how the bike reacts.

Please don't do this on ice, gravel, diese, oil etc etc 

What you are doing is building muscle memory which will stand you in good stead for years to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

[Gryphon Rider]

My point is, in a panic stop I don't think your reaction time is quick enough to do everything right.  You just react and rely on all your training and experience to get you out of this mess. 

I can only remember one time when I've had to do full-on emergency braking, but that one time, I DID do everything right.  The guy whose truck I was on a path to collide with said, "Your life passed before my eyes!"  I got the bike from 40-0 MPH with 10-15 feet to spare.  I actually practice my emergency braking (I don't call it "panic" braking) fairly regularly, and once I've done a few runs, I get my front and rear tires sliding for the last foot or so.

I can say for a fact that a Valkyrie Tourer with partly-loaded saddlebags and a skilled rider will NOT lift up the back end under hard braking, and that rear-wheel braking DOES make a difference in stopping power.  I would guess that there are few, if any, cruiser-style motorcycles that are capable of lifting the back tire under hard braking if the rider keeps his butt in contact with the seat.

[Hooter]

   Threshold Braking.   

[Mapper]

Thanks for the links and advice, Britman!  I see that the "trail braking" is sort of what I was learning on the fly during my road trip... except the article states that the use of the front brake causes the bike to yaw and the rear brake to straighten the bike, I felt the opposite.

http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/101/California/Twisty-Road---Next-140-miles!!!-(California-Route-36).html

I haven't tried the muscle memory exercise for the front brake after the first experience with those twists and turns, but will give it a go.  The combination those of techniques and slowing before a curve is sure to be a winner.

Don't get much rain here, no snow or ice.  A few days ago marked the first time riding in anything heavier than a gentle mist.  It was a slick ride but did okay!  Probably headed to Virginia after this, I hope to be ready for wet roads by then!  It will suck if I ever have to put my Valk away for the winter.

[Freep]

I have limited riding experience compared to most here. 

I enjoy the stopping power of the front brakes but noticed that if I have not properly judged the necessary speed for entering a curve on a twisty road, the back brake allows me to correct my speed with no effect to handling.  Using the front brakes in a sharp curve tended to straighten out my bike.  This was noticed on CA 36, a 2 lane road between I-5 and the coast over mountains and 140 miles of twists and turns, and a few decreasing radius turns.

I agree 100% about the use of the front brakes in general, but is what I said about the use of the back brakes consistent with what you more experienced riders know? (I have about 8,000 miles riding experience, most done on the Valk in less than one year).

Thanks for the posts!  Always looking to improve and gain knowledge and wisdom

A good trick I picked up from a racer somewhere a long time ago:

Look through the corner as you approach, front brake accordingly.
When you enter the turn, be in the gear you want to be in when you leave the turn, get off the brakes.
That's usually a lower gear than you might have chosen and it allows you to just back off on the throttle if you find out you're too hot, thus preventing a lot of scary mid-turn braking.

So, entering the corner, look through it, front brake, downshift.
In the corner, off the brakes, control speed with the throttle.
Exit the corner, dial it on, baby!!

Make sense? Give it a try.

[Freep]

Remember the first words of the original post:

"If you're going to collide with something. . . "

Sometimes you don't see it coming and things just happen too fast to do anything.

Sometimes you can see it coming and do something.
Practicing the things mentioned by Dan could save your life.

If you've practiced the things mentioned in the original post you stand a good chance in those situations where "things just happen too fast" that instinct or muscle memory or whatever you want to call it might just step in and do it for you, automatically.

Two things will stand you in good stead concerning motorcycling:
Learn as much about riding one as you possibly can.
Practice the sh** out of everything you learn.

[Momz]

Threshold braking in a hairpin curve may work until you hit gravel.
Then it becomes an OH crap moment!

My wife will testify to that!

[f6gal]

Dan is a great rider and I agree with everything he said... however, I believe he retired from Phoenix P.D. earlier this year. 

[Freep]

Dan is a great rider and I agree with everything he said... however, I believe he retired from Phoenix P.D. earlier this year. 

Nope. 

[f6gal]

Dan is a great rider and I agree with everything he said... however, I believe he retired from Phoenix P.D. earlier this year. 

Nope. 

Do'oh!

[Freep]

Dan is a great rider and I agree with everything he said... however, I believe he retired from Phoenix P.D. earlier this year. 

Nope. 

Do'oh!

[gregk]

We'llllll I supppppose If your riding along and you know your going to crash as in like someone tells you ok now lets see you do some controlled braking, yo'll be able to stop faster than a total lockup but however if you only have a split second to react and in that time you are not going to have time to play with the brakes but you will grab those brakes for all they have. Not a fan of laying a bike down. been side swiped once nowhere to run and only the antena was hit by the minivans mirror. Rear ended the car in front of me on fresh asphalt when it stoped for no reason this last summer, not so pretty but we're alive with all our pinkes & toes & no broken bones.  And yes that car tire on the rear end will slow you down a lot faster than a MC tire.

[Hooter]

Threshold braking in a hairpin curve may work until you hit gravel.
Then it becomes an OH crap moment!

My wife will testify to that!

IF you have TIME, thresh hold braking is one of the best options..If you hit the gravel it will probably be an "Oh crap" moment anyway to the point where its gonna be a bad day?? Braking in a corner is a tough thing to do if you over do it. If you get hit in the ass like I did on the xway at high speed, non of this matters.