Build "America's Rifle" W/O submitting to 4473 check...

[MarkT]

Check out http://gunpartsplus.com/category/ar-15-parts/

Apart from the lower receiver - there are a lot of sources online for the remaining parts - and the AR-15 is modular, and VERY configurable.  Good places to start are Midwayusa.com and cheaperthandirt.com.



















































Here's the milling instructions.  Don't see a copyright notice.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Mind if I ask what your total cost to have a working firearm was?
Thanks,
Mike

[MarkT]

I've found entry level complete rifle kits less this lower receiver and magazines, for $490.  This receiver was $104.  the jigs were around $90.  Carbide mills (better quality than necessary but I buy good tools when it's worth it) around $20 ea for 2 sizes - don't need the biggest one.  Regular steel cutting bit set for the drills is fine.

BTW I didn't mention - there are CNC shops that will let you "rent" their CNC mill to do this.  Basically they give you a short briefing and tell you to hit the "go" button.  Charge is around $60.  I can dig up the link if you need - a directory of those shops - they list 3 in CA I'm sure this exists in other states as well.

OK found the link - diyweapons.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25

[Jess from VA]

Very interesting Mark, thanks.  I knew this could be done, I did not know you could get the unfinished lower with no Fed paper (and end up with a new rifle with no paper).  Course, I can buy a used AR privately and have no paper either.  Not that that gives the same satisfaction as doing it yourself, but many of us lack the tools or the skills to even try. 

FWIW, I think G collects our posts the instant we hit post.  (not that I haven't done some deleting myself)

[fordmano]

Thanks for the photo's.

I wish I would have taken a lot of pictures when I did the ones I finished out and the one my Brother-in-Law did.

I have a few more coming for some ultra lightweight dedicated .22LR's these will be Polymer, from Polymer80.com.  I should have them in hand sometime the end of the week or beginning of next week.

Down side is you can't sell it or give it away without going through the ATF and getting it registered. I guess you can will these to your spouse or children in the event of your death, but other than that only way to NOT own them after you build them is destroy them or surrender them to the Gubament!

[fordmano]

Last thing I read on the machine shop rentals to finish your 80% lower out was that some states and even the feds are trying to outlaw/ban the rental of equipment for this purpose. Of course this is rumor as of yet.
Also Kaliforniastan is the leader of that push.

[fordmano]

Your's definitely looks better than mine did but from your pictures it looks like you might have better tooling and setup than I did, since a lot of mine was done literally free hand on the drill press.

[The Anvil]

Unless you own your own equipment it ends up costing a LOT more than just buying a stripped lower receiver. A good quality, finished stripped lower can run you less than 120 bucks. That said, it's really not about the money, it's about the experience and accomplishment.

This doesn't circumvent any laws regarding ownership qualifications though. If you're not supposed to have a firearm and you're caught with it you are still going to jail so be forewarned.

[hubcapsc]

FWIW, I think G collects our posts the instant we hit post

He put all his words in jpegs. There's nothing that stops them from analyzing every jpeg on
the Internet with character recognition, but unless they do, his words are only
human readable...

-Mike 

[MarkT]

Unless you own your own equipment it ends up costing a LOT more than just buying a stripped lower receiver. A good quality, finished stripped lower can run you less than 120 bucks. That said, it's really not about the money, it's about the experience and accomplishment.

This doesn't circumvent any laws regarding ownership qualifications though. If you're not supposed to have a firearm and you're caught with it you are still going to jail so be forewarned.

I didn't do it to save money.  Quality stripped anodized 7075 lower receivers are available locally for under $100, and online I've seen the same ones at $80.  Both sources, add 4473 charge (here in CO thx to the new law from the cursed liberal state houses and governor) and other costs like taxes or shipping and/or FFL fee (online, ship to FFL, he is going to have a fee).  I DO have the machinery - all I had to buy is the carbide cutters which I need anyway, and the jigs. For me it's about thumbing my nose at the govt - the fed meddling in our lives just pisses me off.  Especially for the last 5 years.  I don't care that they claim no one has a list of how many of what I bought.  I don't believe anything they say.  I also don't believe they aren't data mining everything I do online and off that they can access, including phone calls.  However I take steps where I can, like use snail mail and phone calls rather than online when I can.  Secondly, for me it's also about the experience, accomplishment, better understanding of the process and the internals and mechanics of guns, and learning processes I can use in other projects.  I was also a weapons mechanic in the AF, worked on M61 gatling guns, and have been a gun hobbyist for 40 years so naturally I have interests on this.  Not to mention showing others how to do it, who have similar interests.

I also clearly stated you can't sell these receivers, or give them away,  an obvious deference to the legal requirements.  No one BUT YOU said anything about dodging laws prohibiting any individual's possession of a gun through this means.  But then I expect such crap from you, assuming nefarious motives, with your perverse attitude and arguing with EVERYBODY on this site.  

[Mapper]

You all might be surprised what is readable by a computer nowadays... in the age of 3-D printing, image and speech recognition, etc. 

Everything that was EVER posted on the internet is in fact, still on the internet.  Search "deep web," this is enough to make most people a little paranoid.  I'm not too worried about it, I'm not scoping out any college clock towers or anything.  Even if I posted something that flagged, I'm sure it would get dropped quickly: Through the lenses of National Security, I'm a really small fish with a somewhat boring life.   

Awesome post, pics, info.  Definitely see a new hobby not too far down the road.  Thanks!

[Jess from VA]

FWIW, I think G collects our posts the instant we hit post

He put all his words in jpegs. There's nothing that stops them from analyzing every jpeg on
the Internet with character recognition, but unless they do, his words are only
human readable...

-Mike 

You learn something new everyday....... if you look for it.   

[The Anvil]

You all might be surprised what is readable by a computer nowadays... in the age of 3-D printing, image and speech recognition, etc. 

Everything that was EVER posted on the internet is in fact, still on the internet.  Search "deep web," this is enough to make most people a little paranoid.  I'm not too worried about it, I'm not scoping out any college clock towers or anything.  Even if I posted something that flagged, I'm sure it would get dropped quickly: Through the lenses of National Security, I'm a really small fish with a somewhat boring life.   

Awesome post, pics, info.  Definitely see a new hobby not too far down the road.  Thanks!

This is why I suck up to the government. When they come looking for people I'll put a good word in for all of you and maybe they'll kill you last. 

[Mapper]

This is why I suck up to the government. When they come looking for people I'll put a good word in for all of you and maybe they'll kill you last. 

  Always nice to have friends putting a good word in 

[MarkT]

Down side is you can't sell it or give it away without going through the ATF and getting it registered. I guess you can will these to your spouse or children in the event of your death, but other than that only way to NOT own them after you build them is destroy them or surrender them to the Gubament!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is ANY provision for changing ownership.  Reason being, there is no serial number, so no way to ID the firearm being transferred after the 4473 check.  Maybe with death & a will, don't know on that.  But selling or giving away - don't think so. At least for the lower receiver.  The rest of the gun is legally not a gun, but accessories.  Even the upper receiver, barrel, and bolt group. So you could sell all but the lower.  Or buy a finished lower via FFL & 4473, assemble it & then it's a legal gun for transfer.  BTW, NO firearms are presently registered federally - and true for most state and local jurisdictions as well.  Might be different in Kalifornistan, and the People's Republic of Massachusetts.  And some cities.  But federally?  Not yet.  After the 4473 approval, the FFL is supposed to file the form "just in case" if requested later.  By a court I suppose, or to track down purchase of a firearm used in crime.  Nothing is supposed to happen as a matter of course other than that, with the paperwork.  In fact that's mandated by law - no gun registry.  I'm sure some of our legal members can expand on that.

[Serk]

BTW, NO firearms are presently registered federally

Except for NFA firearms and accessories (I.E. Machine guns, SBRs, sawed off shotguns, AOWs, suppressors, etc...)

[Mobile Mayor]

It would appear that the KISS principle would apply.  As long as no trail is visible, and no one who is prohibited inherits it, all that is necessary is to know the procedure of the build.  This would mean that a son or daughter...... could demonstrate how the build was done.  However, no body can possess. such a weapon if they have done something that gets them on a prohibited list.

[MarkT]

BTW, NO firearms are presently registered federally

Except for NFA firearms and accessories (I.E. Machine guns, SBRs, sawed off shotguns, AOWs, suppressors, etc...)

Right.  I meant other than NFA stuff.

[vranasaurus]

There is no law preventing you from selling one of these as long as you are not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.  Now that has a squishy meaning.  Would I ever sell one I made? Absolutely not.  Simply because it wouldn't be worth any potential hassle.

if the government wanted to find out who possibly made a particular homemade lower they could figure out who bought the jigs, as there aren't too many companies making them, and go from there.

[MarkT]

There is no law preventing you from selling one of these as long as you are not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.  Now that has a squishy meaning.  Would I ever sell one I made? Absolutely not.  Simply because it wouldn't be worth any potential hassle.

if the government wanted to find out who possibly made a particular homemade lower they could figure out who bought the jigs, as there aren't too many companies making them, and go from there.

Actually you don't have to have jigs.  Makes it easier to cut & drill in the right places - but not required.  You could buy a completed lower and use it to make jigs yourself.  ( I have 2 purchased lowers and the skill and machinery to make pretty good jigs myself - do it all the time. ) That's w/o cutting them with a CNC mill, where the jigs are replaced by the software & computer.  Of course, that results in a really precise mill job, so the method is implied by the precision.

Not a lawyer,  but I'd think they would have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury - at least if I was in defense of such a charge I believe I would want my killer attorney to be an accomplished jury trial attorney, and press for a jury.  They would have to prove the owner of the rifle didn't use MY machinery to make the part.  It's still legal to use another's tools - they would have to prove WHO put their hands on - beyond a doubt.  Don't think that would be a slam dunk for the prosecution.  Depends on circumstances of course.  But it doesn't take a lot of expensive machinery to finish an 80% receiver - they even claim with the jigs, all you need is a drill press.  Saw one site said all you need is a hand held drill (with the jigs and cutters).  One guy on youtube shows how to do it with just a Dremel. This isn't a murder trial, how much money do they want to spend on the case?

GunPartsPro has quantity discounts for 80% receivers.  Like a better deal for 100+.  Is that for all those shooters who build for themselves 120 AR-15's?  Or is that for shops who sell the 80% receivers along with rental time on their CNC machine?  Or manually operated mill.  They also sell individual upper jig parts - separately from the whole kit.  Those would be the ones that get accidentally cut by the top of the mill cutters, or a wandering drill bit.  When you make LOTS of them,  let the inexperienced use your manual mill and your jigs.

I'm sure they would have a tough time tracking a "gun" w/o a serial number, and so they just say "no transfers"  for these owner-made receivers.  But that's just my take and I'm no lawyer.  And looking for common sense or rationality in the law is a futile exercise.  Plus I recall seeing some stipulation in my reading, about whether you're "in the business" of firearms sales, re: precluding one from finishing 80% receivers.  So I don't really know all the nuances on the sales of these homemade receivers but my understanding at this point is it's not allowed.  Any lawyers reading this, know on this point?

[fordmano]

Making guns for yourself is a very fun and personally rewarding hobby. End of my story.

[The Anvil]

There is no law preventing you from selling one of these as long as you are not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.  Now that has a squishy meaning.  Would I ever sell one I made? Absolutely not.  Simply because it wouldn't be worth any potential hassle.

Define "business". Because if you were to sell one, the government's definition would be pretty liberal I assure you.

[Serk]

Per a little googling I found, it seems home built (And I mean home built as in you made the receiver, not buying a stripped lower and attaching the rest) guns CAN be transferred, but you'd need to mark the receiver with a serial number, name and location of manufacture.

Dear xxxxxx:

This refers to your letter of July 27, 2004, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), in which you posed several questions. In general, you requested clarification regarding the classification of Hungarian AMD-63 and AMD-65 selective-fire rifle parts sets, as well as information regarding the manufacture of semiautomatic copies of these firearms.

As you know, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term "machinegun" as follows:

...any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

Further, with respect to your inquiry regarding the classification of the forward grip of the AMD-63 or AMD-65 based on 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 178.39), you should be aware that this is an integral part of the forearm, and, consequently would serve as the "forearm" as listed in 478.39(c)(1 7).

Concerning the manufacture of a semiautomatic copy of the AMD-63 or AMD-65 selective-fire rifle, this is possible only if the receiver is redesigned and incapable of accommodating the original fire control components. Further, the firearm must be designed to operate from the closed-bolt position. The redesigned receiver may be manufactured from new material or from the remnants of properly destroyed receivers. Proper destruction entails the diagonal torch cutting of the receiver in three critical locations. Each cut must displace at least ¼ inch of material.

We should add that prior to utilizing sections of a destroyed receiver, the features that make it capable of firing automatically—the machinegun sear pin hole and the slotted right receiver rail must be removed.

Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92).

Finally, a licensed collector may acquire, hold, or dispose of firearms classified as "curios or relics" as that term is defined in 27 CFR 478.11 (formerly 178.11). The collector's license does not authorize the holder to manufacture a firearm for commercial resale.

For further details on issues related to your inquiry, please refer to the enclosed ATF publication, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (ATF P 5300.4). The text of 27 CFR 478.41(d) (formerly 178.41) appears on page 53; that of 27 CFR 478.93 (formerly 178.93), on page 58.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon

[vranasaurus]

GunPartsPro has quantity discounts for 80% receivers.  Like a better deal for 100+.  Is that for all those shooters who build for themselves 120 AR-15's?  Or is that for shops who sell the 80% receivers along with rental time on their CNC machine?  Or manually operated mill.  They also sell individual upper jig parts - separately from the whole kit.  Those would be the ones that get accidentally cut by the top of the mill cutters, or a wandering drill bit.  When you make LOTS of them,  let the inexperienced use your manual mill and your jigs.

If the shop Is selling the 80% receivers and "rents" the CNC with the appropriate program you are likely in the business of manufacturing and then running afoul of federal law if you don't have the appropriate license.  Pushing go on the machine will not likely constitute sufficient steps by the end user to make them rather than the company the manufacturer. Now on the other hand if you bring your own 80% receiver and have the program and merely rent the machine you may be the manufacturer.

In either instance I would not rent my CNC for such simply because it would not be worth the possible hassle. Remember if you were charged with being engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms without a license your jury would likely have no gun owners on it.  Any AUSA worth his salt will seek to challenge any gun owners on the venire (the group of prospective jurors) for cause.   Any that can't be challenged for cause will certainly be the target for preemptory challenges.   How much money do you have to defend yourself from a federal felony charge?


As noted by anvil, the government's definitions of things like "engaged in the business of" will be used when deciding whether or not to charge you.   

BTW you can slap a serial number on your homemade receiver.  I would recommend doing this even if you don't intend to sell just to avoid any hassles in the future.

[MarkT]

Thx for the comments.

I still wonder who the quantity discounts on 80% receivers is for, at gunpartspro, if the law proscribes finishing the receivers and selling them.  Unless a serial number is added, and the maker has a FFL since he is "in the business" - which then changes the nature of the product, basically making it legally compliant along with any stripped & finished receiver you can buy from any FFL with a 4473 application. Note they have mill finished receivers, but also anodized ones.  It is much harder to engrave anything (like a serial #) on an anodized surface than on the mill finish (which is basically unfinished).  Probably not impossible, but certainly difficult.  Note I'm not in any gun business, just an enthusiast.  And have no interest in going there.  I can't imagine ASKING for more fed meddling in my life by getting in a gun business.

[The Anvil]

Unless you own your own equipment it ends up costing a LOT more than just buying a stripped lower receiver. A good quality, finished stripped lower can run you less than 120 bucks. That said, it's really not about the money, it's about the experience and accomplishment.

This doesn't circumvent any laws regarding ownership qualifications though. If you're not supposed to have a firearm and you're caught with it you are still going to jail so be forewarned.

I didn't do it to save money.  Quality stripped anodized 7075 lower receivers are available locally for under $100, and online I've seen the same ones at $80.  Both sources, add 4473 charge (here in CO thx to the new law from the cursed liberal state houses and governor) and other costs like taxes or shipping and/or FFL fee (online, ship to FFL, he is going to have a fee).  I DO have the machinery - all I had to buy is the carbide cutters which I need anyway, and the jigs. For me it's about thumbing my nose at the govt - the fed meddling in our lives just pisses me off.  Especially for the last 5 years.  I don't care that they claim no one has a list of how many of what I bought.  I don't believe anything they say.  I also don't believe they aren't data mining everything I do online and off that they can access, including phone calls.  However I take steps where I can, like use snail mail and phone calls rather than online when I can.  Secondly, for me it's also about the experience, accomplishment, better understanding of the process and the internals and mechanics of guns, and learning processes I can use in other projects.  I was also a weapons mechanic in the AF, worked on M61 gatling guns, and have been a gun hobbyist for 40 years so naturally I have interests on this.  Not to mention showing others how to do it, who have similar interests.

I also clearly stated you can't sell these receivers, or give them away,  an obvious deference to the legal requirements.  No one BUT YOU said anything about dodging laws prohibiting any individual's possession of a gun through this means.  But then I expect such crap from you, assuming nefarious motives, with your perverse attitude and arguing with EVERYBODY on this site.  

Mark, I wasn't arguing. In fact, regarding the reasoning for making it I was agreeing with you.

And I only mentioned the legality to make sure people are aware. It wasn't to dissuade anyone from trying it themselves.

[MarkT]

Unless you own your own equipment it ends up costing a LOT more than just buying a stripped lower receiver. A good quality, finished stripped lower can run you less than 120 bucks. That said, it's really not about the money, it's about the experience and accomplishment.

This doesn't circumvent any laws regarding ownership qualifications though. If you're not supposed to have a firearm and you're caught with it you are still going to jail so be forewarned.

I didn't do it to save money.  Quality stripped anodized 7075 lower receivers are available locally for under $100, and online I've seen the same ones at $80.  Both sources, add 4473 charge (here in CO thx to the new law from the cursed liberal state houses and governor) and other costs like taxes or shipping and/or FFL fee (online, ship to FFL, he is going to have a fee).  I DO have the machinery - all I had to buy is the carbide cutters which I need anyway, and the jigs. For me it's about thumbing my nose at the govt - the fed meddling in our lives just pisses me off.  Especially for the last 5 years.  I don't care that they claim no one has a list of how many of what I bought.  I don't believe anything they say.  I also don't believe they aren't data mining everything I do online and off that they can access, including phone calls.  However I take steps where I can, like use snail mail and phone calls rather than online when I can.  Secondly, for me it's also about the experience, accomplishment, better understanding of the process and the internals and mechanics of guns, and learning processes I can use in other projects.  I was also a weapons mechanic in the AF, worked on M61 gatling guns, and have been a gun hobbyist for 40 years so naturally I have interests on this.  Not to mention showing others how to do it, who have similar interests.

I also clearly stated you can't sell these receivers, or give them away,  an obvious deference to the legal requirements.  No one BUT YOU said anything about dodging laws prohibiting any individual's possession of a gun through this means.  But then I expect such crap from you, assuming nefarious motives, with your perverse attitude and arguing with EVERYBODY on this site.  

Mark, I wasn't arguing. In fact, regarding the reasoning for making it I was agreeing with you.

And I only mentioned the legality to make sure people are aware. It wasn't to dissuade anyone from trying it themselves.

Thx for clarifying.

[fordmano]

I stand by my last statement!

"Making guns for YOURSELF is a very fun and personally rewarding hobby. End of my story. "