we asked what a 'living wage' is, the academics have answered..

[musclehead]

there are some glaring discrepancies, if you look 

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

[MP]

What a crock!

I live in Slope County, ND.  727 people, per 2010 census.  We have two towns.  County seat of Amidon has 20 residents.  The ONLY business in town, is the Courthouse, which houses all of the county offices.  About 12 people work there.

The only other town is Marmarth.  It has 136 people, per census, in the corner of the county.  We call it our "welfare" city.  Mostly retired and low income.  There is one small bar, with a small restaurant, in town.  And, a small, old convenience store/gas station. THAT IS IT.  There are farmers and ranchers, and some construction, etc.

When I click on the jobs, it shows a whole list of jobs IN THE COUNTY and what they pay, IN SLOPE COUNTY.

The problem is, over half of the jobs listed, with what they pay in Slope county, DO NOT EXIST!

Where did they get this from?  How do you come up with the  wage paid in Slope County, when the job DOES NOT EXIST?

Load of cr*p.

MP

[bentwrench]

"From each according to his ability,to each according to his need....."
My dad had a better mantra than that one..."the only good commie is a dead one"

[G-Man]

According to the link, in my area, a single parent with 3 kids requires over $90,000 to live.

[musclehead]

in deschuctes county OR, or orange county NY, or citrus county FL two adults need $444 worth of food a month to survive?

florida has a 6.25% sales tax, I have no idea what orange county NY has for a sales tax, and ORYGUN has NO sales tax, yet the price of food is the same in all three counties?     right....

[G-Man]

in deschuctes county OR, or orange county NY, or citrus county FL two adults need $444 worth of food a month to survive?

florida has a 6.25% sales tax, I have no idea what orange county NY has for a sales tax, and ORYGUN has NO sales tax, yet the price of food is the same in all three counties?     right....

Generally, there is no sales tax on unprepared food at the supermarket.  So, if the price of food is the same, and you do not include dining out, the cost of food could be similar.  Orange County. NY is the 3rd county north-west of NYC.  Not an expensive area....... yet. 

[0leman]

in deschuctes county OR, or orange county NY, or citrus county FL two adults need $444 worth of food a month to survive?

florida has a 6.25% sales tax, I have no idea what orange county NY has for a sales tax, and ORYGUN has NO sales tax, yet the price of food is the same in all three counties?     right....

Generally, there is no sales tax on unprepared food at the supermarket.  So, if the price of food is the same, and you do not include dining out, the cost of food could be similar.  Orange County. NY is the 3rd county north-west of NYC.  Not an expensive area....... yet. 

We live in Oregon  Klamath Falls area. It's just the DW and I.  I am sort of a big eater and wife not so much.  $444 a month for food is a lot more than we eat.  Maybe in my 20's I ate enough to spend that but not now.  Not sure on their number either.  Seem a bit off.

[Raverez]

in deschuctes county OR, or orange county NY, or citrus county FL two adults need $444 worth of food a month to survive?

florida has a 6.25% sales tax, I have no idea what orange county NY has for a sales tax, and ORYGUN has NO sales tax, yet the price of food is the same in all three counties?     right....

Generally, there is no sales tax on unprepared food at the supermarket.  So, if the price of food is the same, and you do not include dining out, the cost of food could be similar.  Orange County. NY is the 3rd county north-west of NYC.  Not an expensive area....... yet. 

We live in Oregon  Klamath Falls area. It's just the DW and I.  I am sort of a big eater and wife not so much.  $444 a month for food is a lot more than we eat.  Maybe in my 20's I ate enough to spend that but not now.  Not sure on their number either.  Seem a bit off.

Probably like all statistical surveys, it's based on averages.

[Jess from VA]

A living wage depends on your definition.

Living comfortably in the style you like -vs- not starving to death and out of the worst weather.  

I wish my pension was as high as they say the living wage is in my County.  With social security next year, I might make it. (unless they push the age eligibility back to 115yo)

[Raverez]

A living wage depends on your definition.

Living comfortably in the style you like -vs- not starving to death and out of the worst weather.  

I wish my pension was as high as they say the living wage is in my County.  With social security next year, I might make it. (unless they push the age eligibility back to 115yo)

Even though I am technically "retired" , my pension doesnt quite cover my expenses, so I still work.

[musclehead]

in deschuctes county OR, or orange county NY, or citrus county FL two adults need $444 worth of food a month to survive?

florida has a 6.25% sales tax, I have no idea what orange county NY has for a sales tax, and ORYGUN has NO sales tax, yet the price of food is the same in all three counties?     right....

Generally, there is no sales tax on unprepared food at the supermarket.  So, if the price of food is the same, and you do not include dining out, the cost of food could be similar.  Orange County. NY is the 3rd county north-west of NYC.  Not an expensive area....... yet. 

I've been by there, I selected that county because of OCC I've seen it's mostly rural from the ride vids they had on their show. I lived in Deschutes county OR and am a current res in citrus county FLA....

[GiG]

MP:

I've been to Marmarth (2012) & the Pastime Steakhouse rocks!
You are right, nothing else there, pretty much a ghost town. I didn't see how the steakhouse could stay open...
Waitress told me they have actual gunfights in the street some nights. Made me feel at home 
They said I could spend the night on the deck, but I went on to MT instead....
Caint wait to go back! 
Will you meet me there next time, maybe 2015?

CHEERS,
~GiG~

[MP]

You bet!  Steakhouse draws diners from over 100 miles away at times.  They do have a nice MC Rally there the third week of August.  They hold it over the dike.  Basically inside the "pond" where they held water for the steam locomotives.

At one time, Marmarth had over 1000 residents.  Railroad turntable, work house.  Dorms for the RR workers!

You would NOT believe it now.

Let me know, and I'll buy you a steak there!

MP

[cookiedough]

I'm glad to know I am between poverty and living wage.  Quite a difference from near 18 bucks per hour (yah right like that will ever happen) living wage and 10.50 for poverty.  Most new hires start out around 10-11 bucks per hour and work their way up VERY slowly vs. 7 years ago when I started the starting pay was 8.50 per hour and had to work my way up to above what poverty is today.  

What really gets my goat is they hire at times new hires making MORE than what we are being there  7-10 years and they do 1/2 the quality of work with us being there 7-10 years have to train them to do their job which we do already.   We've had 2 asst. supervisors last a combined total of less than 10 months and couldn't do the job yet making 1-2 bucks more than us and then leaving.  One was a young bitchy lady think she knew all and was very arrogant, the other a middle aged guy like me very smart but unable to key or actually do any work more like a hands off manager getting the pay but not doing any work for it.   I'd like that gig!

Anyways, some of those numbers don't add up on that listing but everyone spends their money differently I guess?  I choose to pay my bills upfront and not take out huge loans and try to live by the theory most of our parents grew up by which is, 'if you can't afford it,  you don't need it'.  Unfortunately, our kids of today do not understand that concept and hate to say it, but we as parents are partially to blame for it.    Just because Joe Blow or Jane Doe at high school gets a new car (or even new cell phone, etc.) doesn't mean MY kids are going to get one.   We were lucky as kids in the 70's/80's to get 100 bucks for school supplies and clothes combined per year.  NOw, that is 1-2 pair of designer jeans the kids MUST have.  Trust me, the wife and I have gone around and around on that and I am usually on the short end of that argument although I put up a good fight.  

[..]

F'IT pay every one on poverty wages a million bucks an hour that should shut them all up?

But wait.

You say there's a corellation between increasing wages and higher cost of living $$$?

Really?

So people who earnt $3 an hour back in the day had roughly the same relative cost of living as today?

Really?

Idiots.

Annoys me when Hannity blathers on about the rise in prosperity in the "new" oil fields but NEVER mentions the cost of living there.

$2,000 rental a month for a small camper.

$$$ for a Big Mac etc etc .

[MP]

F'IT pay every one on poverty wages a million bucks an hour that should shut them all up?

But wait.

You say there's a corellation between increasing wages and higher cost of living $$$?

Really?

So people who earnt $3 an hour back in the day had roughly the same relative cost of living as today?

Really?

Idiots.

Annoys me when Hannity blathers on about the rise in prosperity in the "new" oil fields but NEVER mentions the cost of living there.

$2,000 rental a month for a small camper.

$$$ for a Big Mac etc etc .

I live here.  Where do you get those figures?  For $2000 a month, you can rent a decent house.  I see no difference in fast food prices here vs elsewhere.  I can go to a decent buffet here, good selection of food and quality, for $7.50.  How much cheaper is it where you are?

I think you are listening to hype.  $200, 000 will buy you a VERY nice house.

Do you really believe we would be better off earning $8 an hour, than $25?  I know lots of guys, with only a HS degree, but willing to work hard, earning near or over $100,000 a year.  WITH a good health and retirement program.

Is everything perfect?  Heck no.  More traffic, more congestion. Stores that are full of customers, instead of stores going bankrupt. Schools adding facilities, rather than closing.  Small towns growing, expanding, rather than shutting down the school and main street.

I tell you, there are growing pain problems.  No doubt.  But, before the boom, we were on our death bed. Literally.  Towns dying, drying up.  Schools shutting down.  Businesses boarded up because of lack of business.

So, believe what you will, but I would rather have this, than die.

MP

[..]

Who said anythng about dying? Not I.

Anywho heres an article where a rental house is $8,000 a month
http://www.startribune.com/local/229264211.html

More info is just a Google search away.

[MP]

"A" rental house.  One.  Most are NOT that high.

Keep reading.  It is soooooo  terrible.  He bought a farm home in MN, is remodeling it, and plans to have it paid off in a couple years.  Terrible. He makes well over $100,000 a year.

His landlord bought his house 6 years ago for $160,000, and it is now worth $250,000.  He earns that much A YEAR at HIS job.   Sucks, doesn't it?

If it is soooo bad, WHY does anybody come?  Because the money is GOOD.  Even with somewhat higher living costs, and travel costs, etc., they are STILL paying off home mortgages in 5-6 years back home!  Almost slavery, isn't it?

I guess if it makes you happy, just keep earning minimum wage, and everything will be well.

Good luck.

MP

[weeder]

"A" rental house.  One.  Most are NOT that high.

Keep reading.  It is soooooo  terrible.  He bought a farm home in MN, is remodeling it, and plans to have it paid off in a couple years.  Terrible. He makes well over $100,000 a year.

His landlord bought his house 6 years ago for $160,000, and it is now worth $250,000.  He earns that much A YEAR at HIS job.   Sucks, doesn't it?

If it is soooo bad, WHY does anybody come?  Because the money is GOOD.  Even with somewhat higher living costs, and travel costs, etc., they are STILL paying off home mortgages in 5-6 years back home!  Almost slavery, isn't it?


I guess if it makes you happy, just keep earning minimum wage, and everything will be well.

Good luck.

MP
Hey MP ,  being from NE Wyoming  and working in Williston  2 years ago  what you say rings true   to me.     

[cookiedough]

Who said anythng about dying? Not I.

Anywho heres an article where a rental house is $8,000 a month
http://www.startribune.com/local/229264211.html

More info is just a Google search away.

Everyone has their opinions on how to live and why.  No one should judge one another for everyone's lifestyle and how they choose to live it is different.  

For me, taking a train for 3 weeks from WI to MN then to ND would be o.k. ONLY if I was single and younger again.  Heck, I won't even take a better job 55 miles away vs. the normal 35 miles at most in Madison if it means dealing with an extra 25 minutes of heavy traffic just to get to and from work each day, not worth it to me.   See, everyone is different.  I know people who travel that 50+ miles one way to work for peanuts on the dollar as well and although they do it, they don't like it.

[Patrick]

Who said anythng about dying? Not I.

Anywho heres an article where a rental house is $8,000 a month
http://www.startribune.com/local/229264211.html

More info is just a Google search away.

' Klefstad and his ilk '. What the hell kind of statement is that !  I want to punch that writer right in the face !
The man is trying to do what he feels he needs to do, which, reminds me of my friends heading to Alaska in the early 70s. They too paid for homes and the kids college.


Plus, back to the original article, just goes to show what an 'academic' knows.

[MP]

Who said anythng about dying? Not I.

Anywho heres an article where a rental house is $8,000 a month
http://www.startribune.com/local/229264211.html

More info is just a Google search away.

' Klefstad and his ilk '. What the hell kind of statement is that !  I want to punch that writer right in the face !
The man is trying to do what he feels he needs to do, which, reminds me of my friends heading to Alaska in the early 70s. They too paid for homes and the kids college.


Plus, back to the original article, just goes to show what an 'academic' knows.

Yeah, I agree.  I read some of the other articles in the series.  They paint a pretty bad picture.  Me thinks the writer/newspaper has point of view to push?  MN is noted for being "anti" oil field and energy.  The ST Paul papers articles just pretty well show that.

If ANYONE does not want to come, fine.  I have no problem with that.  But, I do then have a hard time with the bitching about lack of good paying jobs, but they will not go to one.

I know people in areas drawing unemployment, and/or welfare, yet are unwilling to come and work.  In my opinion, we should cut off their benefits.

MP

[BF]

[Patrick]

LOL !  Actually though its kinda scary isn't it.

[alph]

i'd like to know who does the grocery shopping for some of these families?  it shows that a family of three kids, and two adults in eau claire county is $904 per month!!  WHAT THE HECK ARE THEY EATING! STEAK EVERY NIGHT!!  i'd say my wife and i spend around $300-$400 a month, TOPS.

maybe they're going off of welfare foodstamp payments. 

[old2soon]

If I was capable of the labor required I would be in the oil patch. But I'm not so I don't. I'd like to know who does the grocery shopping for this article. I use the sale flyers that come out every week and try not to over pay for the stuff I need and consume. Got my S S check on the 3d and the first thing I did was write out about $900.00 worth of checks. Keeps the roof over my head gas in the Phatt Ghurl and cage keeps the lights on keeps the heat on AND I might even be able to feed myself this month. Get back in June I'm going to look very hard at the senior living place. HAVE to find a garage though for tools and Phatt Ghurl. Could be worse-could be living under a bridge with nuttin. RIDE SAFE.

[WamegoRob]

I wonder why the "Typical Hourly Wages" chart focuses on "one adult supporting one child".
Is that scenario what's considered normal now?

[alph]

I wonder why the "Typical Hourly Wages" chart focuses on "one adult supporting one child".
Is that scenario what's considered normal now?

for the most part, yes.  do you have any idea how much money a single child and adolecent parent can make off of welfare?  man, it's like hitting the lottery!!  it all goes away once  you get married though. 

several years back, my wife and i took our tax papers to an accountant, i sat there quietly, while this woman told my wife that had she filed as a single woman with three kids, she'd get $14,000 back as an income tax refund!!!  i told my wife right then and there, i'd divorce her for that kinda money!!    saddly, we're still married.....

[.]

I wonder why the "Typical Hourly Wages" chart focuses on "one adult supporting one child".
Is that scenario what's considered normal now?

I suspect that scenario, for the purposes of establishing a categorical baseline, is considered statistically significant. Inclusion of the category in a study does not indicate approval or disapproval.

[Serk]

I find it interesting that the discussion (Not here, but in general) has pivoted away from "What is a person's labor WORTH" and to "What is fair and reasonable for a person to live on."

Moving closer and closer to the dream of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs..."

[Jess from VA]

Moving closer and closer to the dream of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs..."

Of course, even the communist creedo fails when the FSA has no intention of doing anything (work) according to their ability.    They are only concerned with all things according to their needs.  And their G enablers do not even want to talk about anyone's actual ability to work or attempts to find work.  That might make their job down at the G welfare center .... unpleasant. 

When asked what an FSA member's skills or occupation is, the reply invariably is.... I am (professionally) disabled.... that is what I do for a living.

[G-Man]

But, it's not their fault they have absolutely no skills, including spelling.  It's society's fault because it doesn't spend enough money on them.  It's our fault that they are working at a minimum wage job, quit school, yet had 3 kids out of wedlock so they need gov't supplementation for food and housing while working full time.  And now we're even going to provide free day care, I mean, Pre-K Education for everyone having kids they can't support, provided by a tax on the financially successful. 

My kid is attending a high school school next year that has a very good theater dept.  They do several productions each year.  In college, I followed a girlfriend into the theater dept. and wound up taking lighting, sound, set building, and stage management classes.  It was there that I got experience using hand and shop tools, reading plans, measuring, etc.  It also got me laid a lot in those 3 years!!!  One class was just 90 hours of shop work.  Most of us put in double that because it was just so much fun.  I told my son he should look into it.  It's a great way to learn those skills that he'll have under his belt if needed. 

[.]

I can't say for sure if the sign is legitimate or staged but it doesn't tell me those workers think they are worth $15 an hour. It tells me they think their grill is broken.

[MP]

I can't say for sure if the sign is legitimate or staged but it doesn't tell me those workers think they are worth $15 an hour. It tells me they think their grill is broken.

No, but it tells me my 1st grade grandson spells better than they can.  What happened to the $20k we spent "educating" them?

Pretty sad.  I believe the point was, how can they EVER expect to get a good paying job, without basic skills?  And, if they cannot get a good job, WE, as taxpayers, should somehow be responsible for their upkeep and care.  Why?

MP

[..]

"A" rental house.  One.  Most are NOT that high.

Keep reading.  It is soooooo  terrible.  He bought a farm home in MN, is remodeling it, and plans to have it paid off in a couple years.  Terrible. He makes well over $100,000 a year.

His landlord bought his house 6 years ago for $160,000, and it is now worth $250,000.  He earns that much A YEAR at HIS job.   Sucks, doesn't it?

If it is soooo bad, WHY does anybody come?  Because the money is GOOD.  Even with somewhat higher living costs, and travel costs, etc., they are STILL paying off home mortgages in 5-6 years back home!  Almost slavery, isn't it?

I guess if it makes you happy, just keep earning minimum wage, and everything will be well.

Good luck.

MP

I was going to leave this alone but sometimes factsz are facts.

Here's something you can disagree with from 2013 showing average 1 bed apt costs at 1,600 a month

http://bakkenresidencesuites.com/s/2013/03/median-wages-vs-housing-costs-in-the-united-states/

Here's another piece talking about the high cost of accomodation.

http://www.startribune.com/local/188503971.html?refer=y

Of course you are on the ground there and must have better information than this. I'd like to be educated

http://www.ndakotahousing.com/rates.php

http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/North-Dakota-Has-Highest-Rents-in-the-Country-from-Bakken-Boom.html.

[..]

http://nd.craigslist.org/apa/

[.]

I can't say for sure if the sign is legitimate or staged but it doesn't tell me those workers think they are worth $15 an hour. It tells me they think their grill is broken.

No, but it tells me my 1st grade grandson spells better than they can.  What happened to the $20k we spent "educating" them?

Pretty sad.  I believe the point was, how can they EVER expect to get a good paying job, without basic skills?  And, if they cannot get a good job, WE, as taxpayers, should somehow be responsible for their upkeep and care.  Why?

MP

Educating who? Who, exactly are you talking about? Everyone who works in the fast food industry or the person who made that particular sign, which may or may not have been staged to play upon the prejudice of others, with deliberately placed misspellings designed to elicit a specific response?

I am questioning the validity of the photo itself as it comes with nothing to support its origins but seems to be very handily playing into the narrative. Perhaps too handily. And, if that is the case, it is working well.

[MP]

Cost of living is up. Mostly in housing.  But, it is coming down.  Food?  I see no difference.

I guess my point is this.  The higher wages MORE than make up the difference.  These guys are making $100k and more, with a HS degree.  They are paying off mortgages back home in several years. 

WHY are they traveling, and maintaining two homes?  Because the pay is so good, they are willing to do it!

Figure $8k per month pay.  With a $2k apartment.  Leaves $6k a month.

Back home, these guys are talking $30k jobs, if they have one.  About $2.5 k per month.  Take $700 apartment off.  Leaves $1.8k balance.

$1.8k vs $6k  AFTER paying rent.  Which do you want?

My point is that even with higher cost, almost wholly in rent, they are WAY ahead.

At least to me, it sounded like you were saying that they are no better off with the higher pay, because the cost of living ate it all up.

MP

[MP]

And, I believe those rents will be dropping soon.  Housing was the item in shortest supply when the boom started, and the slowest to get caught up.

But, there are LOTS, and LOTS, of apartments and houses going up.  As that catches up in the next year or so, prices for rent will drop quite a bit, I believe.  But, the higher wages will remain.

MP

[MP]

"Educating who? Who, exactly are you talking about?"

The person who wrote the sign.

I have NO idea who wrote it.  Either do you.

I do know there are people out there in the work force who cannot even spell that good. I know, from personal experience, that there are cashiers, who cannot count.

One two days ago.  My bill came to $15.05.  I gave her a $20, then dug a nickel out of my pocket.  Told her I hated all that change.  She had NO IDEA what to do.  She had already rung up my 20 into the register, and it told her to give me $4.95 back.  She was helpless.  I gave up, took my nickel back, and let her give me the $4.95.