Would it be self defense?

[SANDMAN5]

Riding home from the Snake the other day, alone, wearing
my colors, running 75-80 (limit 55) I caught and passed
a group of 6 sport bikes. Waved as I passed and went on my
merry way. After we turned left on 394, I noticed they were
gaining on me (me still at 75-80). I really kind of expected it
sooner! Then they must have really hammered it because they
came up FAST!! I wasn't worried and I sure wasn't gonna try
to race. But, the first guy came by so close I could have reached
out and smacked him! He was well over 100 mph. 2nd guy,same way.
3rd guy pulled up beside me in the left lane and stayed there, other
3 fell in behind me in my lane. Not cool! I unsnapped my vest just in
case I had to reach in to get my little buddy. They 'zoomed' at and
around me for a few miles and then turned right. My question is...IF
they had actually tried to wreck me, or came too close for comfort,
could that be proven as self-defense IF I had to brandish, or even fire,
a weapon? I know it would be my word against 7 of them (one was riding
2-up). Given the generally uninformed public's opinion about guns AND
motorcycles, how do you think it might go? A get-off at 75 mph can be
fatal. Would it stand as self-defense? Opinions?     

[PharmBoy]

I'd worry about the "self defense" plea when and if it was needed.  Ya just live one time and I'm sure not going to fail to defend myself or my family when needed...Jim

[DIGGER]

I would say no being as you could have stopped and pulled over.   Then call 911 and report it for your own backup story.   Then if they continued the assault then you would be justified.   

[solo1]

Stop the bike. Riding one handed at that speed with a gun in the other, not cool.

If they turn around and come back when you're stopped, then you are ready, that is providing that you are right and in a right state of mind.

[The emperor has no clothes]

What do you mean by "wearing my colors"? And what do you think they were doing,trying to intimidate you? I guess I don't really understand what was going on there.

[Bert AKA,Valkaholic]

As Long As You Have More Than Seven Bullets In Your Gun And You Do Not Miss , Who Would Be Left To Tell The Story Besides You, Just Saying !

[DarkSideR]

Depending on which state you live in...

Your vehicle could be deemed an extension of your home. Therefore it is okay to carry a gun, and defend your property. However it is illegal to fire a weapon on public roads.

To play the devils advocate. Why not just slow down? Why continue the excessive speed? Questions a cop/judge would certainly ask. If you slowed down to 20mph the sporty's would get bored and move on.

I know I wasn't there, and don't the situation, just throwing out hypotheticals.

I had a similar situation happen to me. I unknowingly rode through a biker gangs turf (silly I know). They didn't take to kindly to it, and buzzed all around me, jawing all along the way. I slowed down so traffic backed up behind us. The biker gang got bored and speed off. I was the better man in that situation. They were obviously idiots and there was no need to escalate the situation out of lunacy.

[SANDMAN5]

Colors as in 3-piece patch. Like I said, I wasn't really worried in this instance, just
wondering if it could be proven self-defense if it had escalated. The three behind me
could have been on me before I got off my Valk.
I did slow down when they were all around me, probably to 65 or so. They slowed
too. I couldn't outbrake or outrun them on a Valk.
12 + 1, hollow points!

[bigguy]

IANAL so this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.
I'd think self-defense would depend on a lot of things that never happened. First off, I don't think plugging one of them as they whizzed by would fly as self-defense. Most likely, any shot you got off would be after closest encounter and after the period where you could legitimately claim fear of your life.
My real advice is to find a regional gun board with some lawyers and LEOs as members and get their opinions. For example in Texas I have the Texas Concealed Handgun License forum. Short of actually engaging an attorney, this is the best advice I can find.

[BF]

Why so fast?  Are you trying to be the first one at the accident scene?

Running 80 mph in a 55 just reinforces the sterotype and gives all of us a bad name. 

You can smell alot more roses doing the posted......AND.....you'd have never caught up to the crotch rockets for ya'lls little show of testosterone in the first place. 

Carring concealed for your protection is one thing....thinking about pulling it or using it in a pissing contest is something else entirely. 

I think all ya'll are pretty stupid. 

[ChromeDome]

I would handle this pretty much the way I would handle someone tailgating me. I would slow down.

[SANDMAN5]

Why so fast?  Are you trying to be the first one at the accident scene?

Running 80 mph in a 55 just reinforces the sterotype and gives all of us a bad name. 

You can smell alot more roses doing the posted......AND.....you'd have never caught up to the crotch rockets for ya'lls little show of testosterone in the first place. 

Carring concealed for your protection is one thing....thinking about pulling it or using it in a pissing contest is something else entirely. 

I think all ya'll are pretty stupid

You know what they say about opinions! I had already smelled the roses and was on
my way home. "For my protection" is exactly why I brought this up. I was running 75 long
before I saw them. I didn't speed up to show off. THEY sped up to prove something or to
play games. By calling us "all" stupid, do you mean all those that have replied here or all of us that carry guns or all of us that occasionally ride above the posted limit? You've never met me and I doubt you've met any of those sport bike riders...to assume we're stupid is just plain stupid.  Go piss in your own contest.

[BF]

You know what they say about opinions! I had already smelled the roses and was on
my way home. "For my protection" is exactly why I brought this up. I was running 75 long
before I saw them. I didn't speed up to show off. THEY sped up to prove something or to
play games. By calling us "all" stupid, do you mean all those that have replied here or all of us that carry guns or all of us that occasionally ride above the posted limit? You've never met me and I doubt you've met any of those sport bike riders...to assume we're stupid is just plain stupid.  Go piss in your own contest.

Advice from an old man.  Take it or not. 

And yes, I know what they say about opinions.  YOU posted a thread asking for them.  Don't get yourself all butt hurt when you read one you don't like. 

And no, I'm not calling everyone here stupid.  Just you and the crotch rockets.  Reading is fundemental....don't try to read something that isn't there. 

Carrying concealed these days is not only smart, but prudent as well.  Thinking about pulling a weapon because a couple of crotch rockets decided to f with you and play a little chicken is seriously stupid. 

Don't puff your chest out at every slight son....you'll live alot longer. 

[MarkT]

I would say, in adversarial situations like these road rage / testosterone / pissing contest situations, everything you do before during and after will be picked over with a fine-tooth comb in court if TSHTF.  You need to keep that in mind - "could I defend this action before a judge?" And if you don't have legal insurance, even if you have a good argument and win, it will cost you thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands in legal fees.  Making the right decisions in these cases is important and life-changing.  If you pull that gun, and especially if you fire it, MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT.  

Far better to let it go and cool your jets.  I would have slowed down, turned off; done something to peacably dispose of the punks.  If that didn't work, stop at a place where there are witnesses - e.g. busy convenience store.  If the assault isn't defused by now, try non-challenging language.  If you are actually attacked or it's clear you are about to be, then putting the hand on the gun followed by drawing it might suffice to cool their jets before an actual tragedy occurs.  I'm not in favor of brandishing or showing my cards before I play them so this is a fine line.

[Willow]

The burden of proof will be on you.  The question will be whether you reasonably thought your life was threatened.

I think it would be tough to defend.  The difference between a game of chicken and an attempt to kill is subtle.

That said, what Pharmboy replied is accurate.  If you honestly think your life or your family is in danger you do what you need to do to remove the threat.  Whether what you do is legally defendable is secondary and to be consideered afterward.

[Jess from VA]

Slow way down (to a roll).  If they do too, stop and get off, behind bike and assume a defensive position (fort up).  If they stop, hand on pistol, ready to draw.  If they menace, draw and show, don't point, announce in loudest voice to STOP, STAY BACK, I feel threatened and if you keep coming I will fire in self defense.  If they attack, fire at the highest risks to you first (closest), and stop firing the second they stop being a risk (frontal wounds only).

If I KNEW I could hit a public spot with neutral witnesses a short way up the road, I might go for that spot before stopping and forting up.  

If you really need a firearm, it is far preferable to be off the bike so you can use it effectively.  The fact you stopped, and they did too, puts you in a reasonable defensive mode, and them in an aggressor attack mode (based on pure numbers alone).  A group of men can beat you to death and present a reasonable risk of deadly force, even if all are unarmed.

In a duty to retreat State, you might be expected to run away into the woods, if you can do so safely (and you can, unless one of them draws a firearm/weapon too).  You generally cannot use deadly force to stop vandalism to your bike only.

This may not be consistent with your general level of testosterone, may seem overly cowardly or defensive to your ordinary mindset, but when armed you must take every reasonble measure to avoid deadly force before you use it.  If unarmed, you can be as offensive as you think you can get away with. 

Reasonable escalation of force, step by step.  Give them every chance to leave or stop threatening behavior.  Only fire to stop an immediate reasonable threat to life or limb.  

Whether you are or not, imagine you are on video, and act in such a way that your actions look logical and reasonable to every member of a jury watching the video.  

When it is one against many, you must assume that all the witnesses are on the other side.... against your story.  A gang can rarely keep their story straight, but there will be no one but you to tell your side.  They will do their best to tell a consistent story making you out to be the aggressor and bad guy.  Count on it.

[G-Man]

If you were in an SUV, you could have driven right over them.  As I was reading the original post, I remembered that it was exactly the same situation that occurred here in NYC less than a year ago.  Several bikes flew past, some swarmed, one guy gets real close.....  But in that one, they actually stopped the guy instead of the guy stooping them and them getting bored.  And this "gang" was huge and actually attacked the guy.  He floored it, drove over two of them, then they chased him for a few miles on the highway until made the mistake of getting off the highway and then beat him up pretty good and was smashing his windows next to his 2 year old and tried to grab the wife before help finally arrived.  AND A FEW OF THEM WERE COPS!!!

I wonder if the liberal courts would allow you that self defense?  But Judge, I had that picture in my mind of that man and family being chased and beaten because help hadn't arrived.  Law utilizes precedence.  OSS could represent you and say "Your Honor, in Landrover Vs. Sportbike Gang in 2003, Landrover was beaten to a pulp.  My client, viewing that Youtube vibe several times, felt he was under the same threat that Landrover faced and stood his ground.  Based on precedence, we feel the case against my client should be dismissed.  Thanks you."

[SANDMAN5]

Advice from an old man.  Take it or not.
And yes, I know what they say about opinions.  YOU posted a thread asking for them.  Don't get yourself all butt hurt when you read one you don't like.  
And no, I'm not calling everyone here stupid.  Just you and the crotch rockets.  Reading is fundemental....don't try to read something that isn't there.  
Carrying concealed these days is not only smart, but prudent as well.  Thinking about pulling a weapon because a couple of crotch rockets decided to f with you and play a little chicken is seriously stupid.  
Don't puff your chest out at every slight son....you'll live alot longer.  

The opinion I asked for was whether or not self-defense could be proven IF the situation escalated.
Reading is fundamental, try to read what IS there. I wasn't talking about a game of chicken. Notice the word "escalated".

As far as a public place to pull over, we didn't pass one on our side of the road which meant stopping to turn left. Stopping meant some of them would be behind me...bad tactical situation. Again, not a factor in this case, but if it had ESCALATED. I have never brandished just for fun, but I would to send a "this has gone far enough" message.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Short Answer, No not self defense.

Slow down at a reasonable rate. If they persist, pull off the road.

If they persist, shoot their ass.

Easy. Then it is self defense, you are out numbered. But you will be sued for everything you

own or will ever own.

Your choice.

[Tx Bohemian]

If you were in an SUV, you could have driven right over them.  As I was reading the original post, I remembered that it was exactly the same situation that occurred here in NYC less than a year ago.  Several bikes flew past, some swarmed, one guy gets real close.....  But in that one, they actually stopped the guy instead of the guy stooping them and them getting bored.  And this "gang" was huge and actually attacked the guy.  He floored it, drove over two of them, then they chased him for a few miles on the highway until made the mistake of getting off the highway and then beat him up pretty good and was smashing his windows next to his 2 year old and tried to grab the wife before help finally arrived.  AND A FEW OF THEM WERE COPS!!!

I wonder if the liberal courts would allow you that self defense?  But Judge, I had that picture in my mind of that man and family being chased and beaten because help hadn't arrived.  Law utilizes precedence.  OSS could represent you and say "Your Honor, in Landrover Vs. Sportbike Gang in 2003, Landrover was beaten to a pulp.  My client, viewing that Youtube vibe several times, felt he was under the same threat that Landrover faced and stood his ground.  Based on precedence, we feel the case against my client should be dismissed.  Thanks you."

That incident also came to my mind as I was reading this.


I'm by no means taking sides here but we're only hearing one side of the story.
And I take it SANDMAN5 is telling it as he perceived it.

Maybe the crotchriders interpreted the wave as a "ride it or park it!" gesture as you went by instead of a friendly wave.
And being a group they're probably a bit more brave than if there was just one or two.
Cause what they did was really stupid, IMO.

Whether self defense or not, I'd believe like most here that it would depend. If you pull your weapon and start blasting away driving down the road, probably not.
If you pulled over, or attempted to, and they still harassed you into fear then it'd be like the "Landrover" guy and probably so.

[YoungPUP]

Maybe things are different down that way with M/C clubs, but Its my experience that our bikes tend to draw the attention of crotch rocket riders because of the sound at 70-80mph.  I've passed a fair share and they usually catch up to see. (shiny object/simple minds) IF they weren't wearing colors as well, just leave as what it was and go on to your next ride.  I ride under colors as well (one piece) (denotes "family" type club) but we do have occasional differences with local 1% clubs due to the design of our patch...  I was told a long time ago that if you look for a gun fight you'll eventually find one.  Good luck brother. Ride safe.

[cookiedough]

I would've slowed down to 50-55 mph and moved over to the right side of the road to let them on by.  No sense of keeping at 60+ mph and provoking them to be even bigger idiots than they already were. 

Not self defense but if they would've clipped your bike at that speed,  I might have shot as well?

It might throw you off your own bike or injure you, but sticking out your leg if had a good set of boots on as they went by you a little faster might wipe them out and I wouldn't have lost any sleep over it.  If they wanted to pass, they should've gone way over to the left in the passing lane not mere inches or feet away from your bike.

[Pappy!]

If in doubt, remember..............

It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I would've slowed down to 50-55 mph and moved over to the right side of the road to let them on by.  No sense of keeping at 60+ mph and provoking them to be even bigger idiots than they already were. 

Not self defense but if they would've clipped your bike at that speed,  I might have shot as well?

It might throw you off your own bike or injure you, but sticking out your leg if had a good set of boots on as they went by you a little faster might wipe them out and I wouldn't have lost any sleep over it.  If they wanted to pass, they should've gone way over to the left in the passing lane not mere inches or feet away from your bike.

I would think sticking your leg out at someone going 100+ would not work out in your favor! but I don't know I've never done it.