Question ..... VRCC Military

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Past and present.... If given the order would you fire upon American citizens ?

[Warlock]

Good question Joe. I know I wouldn't. Waco Texas is where the Gov killed Americans. I didn't agree with David Qurest(sp) but they did kill them. Almost again in Nevada. I'm afraid of how they have brain washed our guys. I hope we don't have to find out on a bigger scale.
David

[old2soon]

Simple answer-NO. BUT at the same time I would NOT let them over run me. With the P O S in charge in deception central ANYTHING is possible. I PRAY I don't get first hand knowledge. RIDE SAFE.

[Michvalk]

Hard question to answer. I guess it would depend on the circumstances.
I can't see me firing on anyone over a difference of opinion unless they fire on me first. Beyond that....Probably no.

[Reb]

If I was still active duty

No, even if they were firing at me.

[Spirited-6]

Damn, Joe. What a OPEN ENDEN QUISTION ! To protect my family, prop. life. I would ! But if my  U. S. A. was in question, you bet you f. ass.   Why would you not defend your life !!!!!

[Six Guns]

Are they Democrats?   

[Chrisj CMA]

Past and present.... If given the order would you fire upon American citizens ?

In the spirit of the question as I perceived it to be asked, the answer is NO, Hell NO!  

But...Joe, you have to ask yourself, if some US citizens dressed in some sort of government uniforms stepped on your property to take all your guns (and whatever else they wanted) or take you and your family off to a "camp" somewhere.......would you fire on them?

So the long answer is no I would never let a @$$hole like Obama tell me to fire on innocent civilians for his agenda.  However, given an out of control government trying to take my freedom.......I would fire yes, and I would as a citizen or if I were still in uniform.  I believe the Declaration of Independence demands me to be willing to defend freedom even against domestic enemies.  That was in my oath when I enlisted and I took it seriously.

The Oath:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


That part about obeying the orders of the president cannot be read by itself without that part that says "according to regulations..."  Those regulations make it clear that there are lawful orders...those are to be obeyed.  There can be un-lawful orders, those you must not obey if you have honor and respect for the law, the constitution and the Oath you took to begin with.

[Cliff]

NO!

[Master Blaster]

Joe it is not that simple anymore, the military isn't what it used to be.  Obama has fired a ton of Patriotic Generals and high ranking officers and replaced them with compliant toadys.  Also they are actively recruiting homosexual members while giving pink slips to deployed troops in Afganastan.  Also he is hell bent on reducing the size of the military, 7000 troops at risk at Ft Polk, La, and that is just a small part of it.  He has welcomed the traditor that went AWOL to join the Taliban as a hero, and is about to give him 5 years of back pay.  What I am saying is he is doing everything in his power to weaken the moral fiber of our troops.  This includes a war on religion In the military.  Tons of good guys still there, but I am very afraid that their future is limited.  He is even talking about enlisting illegals as a path to stay here, and they have no allegiance to this country at all.  I spent 23 years in and retired in 81.  Back then it would not have been likely at all, but I am not so sure at all anymore.

[Jess from VA]

Pretty wide open question.  Americans are like everybody else in some respects, good and bad, and very bad.

What I would not do (cop or military) is participate in any Katrina type operation where I was ordered to treat the populace in general as hostile, round up the usual suspects, kick doors without warrants, disarm citizens, put them in camps, confiscate private property, conscript people for forced labor (exactly as detailed in some Executive Orders).  Nor would I be taken under arrest for refusing such orders.... without a fight.

Easier to say in my old age with only my own life to lose, tougher to do as a young man with a family/children depending on you.  

In JAG school, we spent a good deal of time discussing lawful and unlawful orders, and the Nazi defense (just following orders) is no defense to an unlawful order.  But whoa is he who disobeys a lawful order. And in periods of insurrection, (lawful summary) trials are little more than Caesar's thumb.

I am reminded of Geo Washington, who during the lowest ebb of the Revolution faced mutiny (peaceful desertion) by unpaid, starving, unclothed/unshod, sick men, and ordered 2-3 ringleaders shot.  The firing squad was also mutineers.  Hard decisions.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

As I understand the ?. NO

[donaldcc]

  depends on circumstances.  no answer to this vague question.  ???

[signart]

It's happened before, it can happen again.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

  depends on circumstances.  no answer to this vague question.  ???

I thought it was a simple question .... If ordered to fire on American citizens would you ?

[The emperor has no clothes]

  depends on circumstances.  no answer to this vague question.  ???

I thought it was a simple question .... If ordered to fire on American citizens would you ?

Hypothetically they could be US citizens that are loyal to a foreign govt. Lots of variables. But in the simplest of situations where I was in the navy and was ordered to shoot US citizens to quell a protest. NO

[donaldcc]

 depends on circumstances.  no answer to this vague question.  ???

I thought it was a simple question .... If ordered to fire on American citizens would you ?

 not so simple joe.

 ordered by who? ordered for what reason?  what are the surrounding circumstances?  what are my personal responsibilities?  why does some unknown person have the authority to give me any kind of order? who are the citizens? How many?  fire what, slingshot, bow and arrow, bean bag, water cannon, handgun, rifle, missile, drone? fire to kill, wound or deter?

 so if some unidentified "official" ordered me to fire for some unknown reason??  likely not, as I am not a pawn of others. but as noted this is way too vague.  

 life is precious, but sometimes must come to an end.

[Highbinder]

When I was in the military we weren't taught to think, we were taught to obey orders, without question...if you didn't there was hell to be paid...when the order to fire comes and others with you start firing and some will, it's hard to say just out of training alone that you wouldn't...morally you say no, but that's not what may happen when it happens...if they were armed citzens shooting at me, the answer is yes, if unarmed holding protest signs the answer would be no....

[donaldcc]

When I was in the military we weren't taught to think, we were taught to obey orders, without question...if you didn't there was hell to be paid...when the order to fire comes and others with you start firing and some will, it's hard to say just out of training alone that you wouldn't...morally you say no, but that's not what may happen when it happens...if they were armed citzens shooting at me, the answer is yes, if unarmed holding protest signs the answer would be no....

  I seem to recall "Kent State". 

[The emperor has no clothes]

When I was in the military we weren't taught to think, we were taught to obey orders, without question...if you didn't there was hell to be paid...when the order to fire comes and others with you start firing and some will, it's hard to say just out of training alone that you wouldn't...morally you say no, but that's not what may happen when it happens...if they were armed citzens shooting at me, the answer is yes, if unarmed holding protest signs the answer would be no....

They also taught us that it was unlawful to obey an unlawful order

[Jess from VA]

I would hazard a guess that forceful actions of military and police taken pursuant to Executive Orders would be found to be lawful orders, at least at the civilian and military trial level, until maybe some years later and into the Federal Courts, if such orders were ever found unlawful.  Only 5-4 of SCOTUS said the 2dA is a personal individual right, which of course it is (like all the Bill of Rights).

Ever hear of the Bonus March of 1932?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army







Conspicuously led by MacArthur, Army troops (including Major George S. Patton, Jr.) formed infantry cordons and began pushing the veterans out, destroying their makeshift camps as they went. Although no weapons were fired, cavalry advanced with swords drawn, and some blood was shed. By nightfall, hundreds had been injured by gas (including a baby who died), bricks, clubs, bayonets, and sabers.

[Robert]

It has been said that if the military is in the US then the powers that be know that there will be conflict of interest. That is why there will be foreign troops stationed in the US. That is why we have a president that is not a US citizen. I have also heard that the military is not to happy at the way things are going and actually may be a help in the plans that are scheduled. That unlike the pres the politicians who have deserted their oath of office still have a conscience.
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. 

[crow]

Depends,... do they have red necks, or have long hair, or maybe these American citizens are wearing a turban, or  have slanted eyes, are they WASPS, or perhaps negro,  do they have beards, or shaved heads,   are they half black or maybe half white?  Do they look like,  YOU?  Maybe they look like ME

[donaldcc]

. . . That is why we have a president that is not a US citizen.  . . .  

  please Robert, tell me you are not still on the "birther" bandwagon??

  let's have informed controversy, but not zealot propaganda.  it detracts from the debate.

[LandElephant]

Joe,
As you have seen although this should be a simple question, to an American fighting man it is not.  As explained earlier each American fighting man / woman takes an oath to protect the constitution.

Next there are 134 articles in the Uniform Code of Military Justice which govern the American Fight man / woman conduct.  Also there is the Code of Conduct that every American fighting man / woman must obey.

The soldiers of today are trained much different that most of us who served.  They are smarter, given more latitude to think, and are taught to review and question orders.  But by the time the order comes to the soldiers with guns they have been reviewed by multiple levels of authority before the individual like myself would be required to pull the trigger.

So with all that, would I fire on another citizen.  I have no idea what I would do.  I know even with my training I would still have to parse my convictions to that order.  But I was trained to protect myself, family,my fellow Marines, property, civilians. and my country.

Charlie Morse
Land Elephant

[Robert]

. . . That is why we have a president that is not a US citizen.  . . .   

  please Robert, tell me you are not still on the "birther" bandwagon??

  let's have informed controversy, but not zealot propaganda.  it detracts from the debate.

No debate, just make the records available and me and a lot of others will be proven wrong. Until then neither of us will know the truth. The only difference is I choose to look at the facts instead assumption or taking things on the word of the president.

[The emperor has no clothes]

. . . That is why we have a president that is not a US citizen.  . . .   

  please Robert, tell me you are not still on the "birther" bandwagon??

  let's have informed controversy, but not zealot propaganda.  it detracts from the debate.

No debate, just make the records available and me and a lot of others will be proven wrong. Until then neither of us will know the truth. The only difference is I choose to look at the facts instead assumption or taking things on the word of the president.

You know damn well there is NOTHING  that is ever going to change your mind .

[Jess from VA]

Scenarios may differ, but generally you would not have orders to fire on unarmed, non violent civilians under any circumstances (and I doubt many would follow such orders).  Rather, people protest/resist actions taken (executive orders, war, immigration, draft, draconian taxes, forfeiture of life savings or land/property,  and more recently the increasing use of swat teams to do what should be done by two US Marshals), and things escalate.  In many famous conflicts/incidents, it is never clear who fired the first shot (Boston Massacre, etc).  But when the shooting starts, you tend to hang with your tribe, be it police, military or the group protesting/resisting.  

Of course the irony is most good citizens are law and order pro military types who understand the enemy is not the police or military, but politicians, bureaucrats and regulators (and maybe some judges) who created the policies being resisted.  Unfortunately the later send the police or military to do their enforcing.  It has always been so.  There may come a time when the later deserve to become the hunted.    

[hal47]

When I was in the military we weren't taught to think, we were taught to obey orders, without question...if you didn't there was hell to be paid...when the order to fire comes and others with you start firing and some will, it's hard to say just out of training alone that you wouldn't...morally you say no, but that's not what may happen when it happens...if they were armed citzens shooting at me, the answer is yes, if unarmed holding protest signs the answer would be no....
+1

[Robert]

. . . That is why we have a president that is not a US citizen.  . . .   

  please Robert, tell me you are not still on the "birther" bandwagon??

  let's have informed controversy, but not zealot propaganda.  it detracts from the debate.

No debate, just make the records available and me and a lot of others will be proven wrong. Until then neither of us will know the truth. The only difference is I choose to look at the facts instead assumption or taking things on the word of the president.

You know damn well there is NOTHING  that is ever going to change your mind .

Wrong, Simple really produce a verifiable birth certificate just like every US citizen has to produce when asked for it and everything disappears. Its not rocket science. How many years has O been pres, and no one has produced a good birth certificate? That is a problem.

[Rams]

 depends on circumstances.  no answer to this vague question.  ???

I thought it was a simple question .... If ordered to fire on American citizens would you ?

It's not a simple question and you know it.     Who's giving the order, what's the situation?     What am I protecting?   Is it a lawful order?    One of the things that makes the US Military  unique is the fact that no service member is required to execute an unlawful order.       This even includes a direct order from POTUS.     Could I?    It depends.   Would I?   Again, it depends.

I'll say this, I took an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.     Would I?    Only one way to find out.   

[RDAbull]

Unfortunately, I would probably be one of the citizens that would be shot at.  When the time comes that the government comes to confiscate my property, I would rather give up my life than my freedoms.

[Skinhead]

  depends on circumstances.  no answer to this vague question.  ???

I thought it was a simple question .... If ordered to fire on American citizens would you ?

No, but I don't consider Obama and the rest of those traitors American citizens, I consider them enemies of the state.

[jimmytee]

No. Things would have to be very crazy IMHO to call any such order,legal. 

[bogator]

JOE, I am in agreement with Chris J CMA, ---I really don't know what I would do if this were to happen, I don't think any of us know what we would do, but, for me to fire on a citizen ----it would have to be life threatening  --then yes I would--GOD BLESS----you opened that can of worms--see ya--

[Valkjerk]

Joe,
This is a question every person in the military should be asking each other and themselves. If the answer is no then get out. If you exit, your replacement probably will.

[Hoser]

If things were as bad as that, I would have already bugged out to a hideaway some where.  Probly shoot about anybody that finds me.  Hoser   ???

[The emperor has no clothes]

Joe,
This is a question every person in the military should be asking each other and themselves. If the answer is no then get out. If you exit, your replacement probably will.

Really? You sound pretty willing to kill fellow citizens. Which branch were you in?

[PhredValk]

This is from an outsider, of course, but with so many members here talking about open and concealed carry, discussing types and brands of side arms, 2nd amendment rights and so on it seems to me that the average member is prepared and willing to fire upon other citizens WITHOUT being given a lawful order to do so. Why is it a stretch to consider firing on other citizens while being a member of law enforcement or the military when given the order to do so?
As a part a trained and organized unit being in any situation where you may be required to use deadly force I should think that you would already understand that the possibility could arise and act accordingly.
When in uniform in training I was part of the Base Defense Force at the training base in Kingston, Ontario; a city home to at least 8 min to maximum prisons. We were trained as the first line in any dangerous large scale incidents, to hold things in check until the closest real Infantry unit could arrive from another base. Just a show waiting for the 'Real Army' to get there.
Would I fire into that crowd of Citizens if ordered to? Yes (if I actually had a real bullet, which would have been unlikely).
Would I fire on an officer's wife in a shopping center parking lot if ordered to? No.
Perspective. If you are not fully prepared to fire a weapon at a fellow citizen you shouldn't be in possession of said weapon when on home soil.
Fred.

[MarkT]

This is from an outsider, of course, but with so many members here talking about open and concealed carry, discussing types and brands of side arms, 2nd amendment rights and so on it seems to me that the average member is prepared and willing to fire upon other citizens WITHOUT being given a lawful order to do so. Why is it a stretch to consider firing on other citizens while being a member of law enforcement or the military when given the order to do so?
As a part a trained and organized unit being in any situation where you may be required to use deadly force I should think that you would already understand that the possibility could arise and act accordingly.
When in uniform in training I was part of the Base Defense Force at the training base in Kingston, Ontario; a city home to at least 8 min to maximum prisons. We were trained as the first line in any dangerous large scale incidents, to hold things in check until the closest real Infantry unit could arrive from another base. Just a show waiting for the 'Real Army' to get there.
Would I fire into that crowd of Citizens if ordered to? Yes (if I actually had a real bullet, which would have been unlikely).
Would I fire on an officer's wife in a shopping center parking lot if ordered to? No.
Perspective. If you are not fully prepared to fire a weapon at a fellow citizen you shouldn't be in possession of said weapon when on home soil.
Fred.

You have missed the point.  Which doesn't surprise me given your perspective.

To carry, open or concealed, to possess a CCW and the weapon it authorizes, is not a carte blanche to blast away w/o regard to the circumstances.  Nor does the possesion of these things,  as well as being gun enthusiasts reflect anything of the sort you expressed.  My older FAR LEFT liberal brother thinks along the lines you have shown in your post.  I consider him irresponsible and would be dangerous to arm without some serious training and attitude adjustment.  

The question as posed by the O.P. refers to being in a military unit and ordered to fire upon citizens, probably for political reasons, or to suppress a mass protest. The sort of thing that historically has been committed by totalitarian regimes, NOT a part of our history of free people.  YET, generally.  Except Kent State and some other aberrations but not the general paradigm of our people.  Though it is becoming a concern with the dictator in the White House, and all the anger he has created. This thread is NOT about being prepared to deal with an armed criminal commiting mayhem, which is more the purpose of being armed in our daily lives.

You would fire into a crowd of citizens if ordered?  WOW.  Please continue to live in Canada where you cannot carry.  And stay the hell out of our country where you can.  Until you learn about responsible carry and learn to respect life.