TRAGIC SHOOTING OF A GUN INSTRUCTOR

[cma1]

exactly !

[MAD6Gun]

now her dad, former seal, and now a retired commander, who has seen real battle, wouldn't allow any of his daughters to get near an assault weapon. like he says, assault weapons may be fun to shoot, but except for killing your enemy have very little use.

So cma are you saying that so called "assault weapons" have no use but to kill your enemies.  Have you ever watched or competed in a IPSC 3 gun match? AR15 are used almost exclusively in that type of competition.  I have shot 3 gun before. Its fun. I used a Colt H-bar ar15 in .556. And NO it is not FULLY Automatic. Besides MY AR is NOT a assault weapon. Its a Modern Musket.....

In case you don't know I am SOLO1s son. I too am a NRA instructor. I have been around gun all of my life. What happened here was a tragedy. I think there is enough blame to go around. From the parents to the instructor but he payed the ultimate price for his mistake in judgement.

[gregc]

 I think the parents took their daughter to an official gun range with  certified instructors for instruction and supervision for her dream of shooting the Iuzi.   The problem started when the instructor only allowed the little girl to shoot 1 or 2 rounds in the semi auto mode before he switched the firearm into full auto.   I think that 1 or 2 rounds is not nearly enough for the girl to get the feel of the weapon.  We will never know what instructions were exchanged between the two before allowing her to shoot full auto, but the instructor wasn't prepared for the weapon to climb anymore then the girl was.  I don't think it was so much an age problem, as I think it was her inexperience with any firearm.    The parents thought it was the best possible way for their daughter to experience something from her bucket list. The range seemed to be familiar with dealing with new shooters, and the shooter was going to be in a one on one instructor situation.  Seemed like an everyday occurrence for the range to deal with.  Either way, it is a horrible thing for both families to deal with.

[cma1]

now her dad, former seal, and now a retired commander, who has seen real battle, wouldn't allow any of his daughters to get near an assault weapon. like he says, assault weapons may be fun to shoot, but except for killing your enemy have very little use.

So cma are you saying that so called "assault weapons" have no use but to kill your enemies.  Have you ever watched or competed in a IPSC 3 gun match? AR15 are used almost exclusively in that type of competition.  I have shot 3 gun before. Its fun. I used a Colt H-bar ar15 in .556. And NO it is not FULLY Automatic. Besides MY AR is NOT a assault weapon. Its a Modern Musket.....

In case you don't know I am SOLO1s son. I too am a NRA instructor. I have been around gun all of my life. What happened here was a tragedy. I think there is enough blame to go around. From the parents to the instructor but he payed the ultimate price for his mistake in judgement.

o.k. but you aren't a 9 year old girl either. I am a retired police officer and a ccw instructor. I am a viet nam vet who has owned several ar-15 rifles (by the way is your ar a smoothbore ?) I feel as someone who has had to face all this stuff on the street that our 2cd amendment rights should never be infringed on. but I gotta say, ever since your president took office and the ammo got scarce, and everyone got freaked out and bought an ar, I have had st sit here and watch everyone involved in anti gun control try to make the ar "Americas rifle" a "hunting rifle" come on guys, I like them too, but they are hardly a model 70 Winchester. all this crap started when everyone thought we would lose them, for crying out loud I sold one of my ar-15's in .223 for $1,700.00, one I had bought while a cop for $800.00. how bad could anyone want one ? I bought  one in .308 and its sold already, the gun was too light to be a .308, I suspect that's why the govt. dropped the idea and went .556. but I ain't here to argue with you, regardless of who son you are. ar -15's are and will always be assault weapons, as are uzi's, and ak-47's. they were designed as weapons of war. if they weren't some of you guys wouldn't own one. I have a safe overflowing with real hunting guns, any one of which will outshoot any ar I have ever owned. so lets not get cranky and go to supporting ar's by calling them competition guns. in competition, anything your shooting is a competition gun. maybe someday when some little 15 year old gangbanger points an assault weapon at you, you will understand my point. if you have never dealt with that you will never understand, if you have dealt with it we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Xtracho]

So we are back to blaming the weapon again instead of placing it squarely on the people and their intent with that weapon. That plays right into the hands of the very people that wish to corrupt the 2A.

Sorry, but ANY weapon a gangbanger points at you, by definition, becomes an "assault weapon." It is not the design of the firearm whatsoever. It is the intent of the person armed with that weapon that defines what it is. I have 3 AR's in my safe. One that I built myself. To this date, as I sit here, neither of the 3 has assaulted anyone.

While I respect your position, and your credentials, the 30 year Air Force vet & small arms instructor that taught my CCW class would disagree with you about such a definition.

[cma1]

well, I suppose that's why we all fought for your right to have your own opinion. but you read something into what I said that I tried to explain better, I am a staunch 2cd amendment supporter, an nra member, and like I said a ccw instructor who has armed the lions share of my community.

I do not and never will blame the gun, I am not stupid, and hope you are not either. the point I was making is that I do not believe weapons of war belong where 15 year old gang bangers can get their hands on one. but then I don't think pot should be legal either, so am I blaming the plant ? (no, I blame the people that cannot get through a day without getting high), no more than I blame the gun.

when your my age and have walked where I have walked then you can talk and understand at my level. you see, I am double retired, once from the military and am 100% disabled from wounds, and 50% of that from PTSD. and then the other half of my adult life trying to make the streets a safe place to be. (didn't work) I know what I'm talking about. my aim was never to badmouth guns, my point from the beginning has been who is at fault and I thought then and think now the responsibility lies directly on the parents. parents now days bitch an piss and moan about the government trying to take away their right to parent, then when something like this happens they go to blaming someone else for their own stupid decisions.

I say again. no 9 year old child has any business handling a full auto assault weapon. anyone who as a parent doesn't agree with that statement is just trying to start an argument, no parent worth being a parent would ever hand that kind of firepower to a little girl.

let me ask you this, have you ever actually fired a fully automatic rifle of any kind ? they climb, usually to the left, they are hard to hang onto when you are 200 lbs and trained to use it. an uzi is actually a SUB machine gun, that means small and fires a pistol round (9mm) they tend to rise and turn to the left, its a wonder this child didn't shoot herself too.

and do I think ar-15s are to shoot the enemy ? when when I was there trying to stay alive, that's what they told us they were for. that's what we used them for, there was no 3 gun competition, just a irresistible urge to stay alive. so spare me the "Americas rifle crap" the model 70 Winchester in 3006, the Remington 700 in .270, the ruger m77 in .308, are Americans guns.

that said, the ar-15 is the absolute finest coyote killer ever made. but I still wouldn't give one to a 9 year old

[Xtracho]

Recoil forces the barrel upwards and the inertia of the ejector on the right side forces them left....yah...I know. In the hands of a 9 year old? Never. Have fired them before. But I am not going to trot out my life experience to validate my opinion. And I do not think I ever mentioned the term "America's gun".

As I mentioned in my very first post in this thread. There is enough blame to go around several times or everyone involved in this tragedy.

[solo1]

I think that we all are thinking the same in general just on a little different track.

The Ar-15's are used in civilian competition just as the M1 Garand is and the M1A's.  Just because they were used in combat(M16, M1, and the M14) doesn't make them unacceptable for civilian use.  As far as them getting into the wrong hands, the only way to prevent that is to not have made them in the first place. I'm not worrying about what I can own just because some @#$% gang banger might rip me off! Despite their history, these guns all are legitimate for civilian use.  

BTW, firearms rotate upwards because of the opposite reaction to the mass of the bullet  and to the left because of the opposite reaction to the bullet spiraling down the rifling and not because of the ejector.  A revolver does the same and it has no ejector. A shotgun, even semi autos, only rotates upward because of the smooth bore.

We have some very knowledgeable posters here and I have leaned more things about guns here on this thread.  I think that most of us are right.  A 9 year old had no business shooting a fully automatic 9mm Uzi. IMHO I personally see no need to personally have one in my safe.

[cma1]

that's really all I was trying to say. some folks were trying to blame the instructor for this, I agree, he had some responsibility, like I said from the start, it wouldn't ever happen on a range I was in charge of because the parents would not have gotten past me just because they paid big bucks to shoot the uzi. if my employer didn't like it, well tough ! I would have quit and went job hunting before allowing it. my entire point was that as parents we are commissioned by God himself to nurture and care for these kids, not teach them to be commandos.

the instructor paid with his life, that's too bad because his family and his kids now get to wake up every morning without him.

sorry to have to drag my life experience into a conversation, but sometimes folks get to thinking every one else is full of it unless you qualify yourself, that comes from too many years having to qualify in court I guess.

I'm a parent. my daughters are "MY" responsibility, not the govt. not the schools, not the range instructor, and yes, my girls can shoot.

I really don't see the need for a range that allows automatic weapons. they say no one hates war more than a warrior. I hate war ! being there experiencing the pain, (and smell) makes me wonder why those that haven't been there seem to want to experience it instead of thanking God every day they haven't had to. I guess I look at it this way. one has to be properly trained to drive a big rig down the highway, yet your 16 year old boy can rent a big truck from U-Haul with zero training.

assault weapons are very dangerous. the military trained us to use them, why do we even allow the uneducated to touch one ? then wonder why some 16 year old shoots up a school or a movie theater with one. and please spare me the talk about how any weapon is an assault weapon, we all know what we are talking about here.

[solo1]

cma1, I welcome your thoughts and thank you for your Service and sense of responsibility. 

I have belonged to a rifle club for over 50 years and fully automatic weapons are NOT allowed there along with guns that shoot the .50 cal mg cartridge. A wise decision on both parts. Neither is conducive to maintaining and keeping a range like ours in a rural environment here in NE Indiana.

My son is very sincere and responsible in the shooting sports and we have taught quite a few classes in gun safety and responsibility.  All my kids were raised to be responsible adults, something that is becoming rare these days in the general public, it seems.

[Xtracho]

Clearly as a father I believe I was endowed with the responsibility to care for my family...in this case two daughters, wife and grand child (see avatar). Both my girls shoot, and quite well actually. Both are proficient in the art of self-defense known as Krav Maga. I will not allow them to be a victim to anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Would I allow them to fire a fully automatic weapon? Most emphatically NO. I see no need since I cannot own one.

As Solo said....I think we are all on the same page here. Just from differing angles. A tragedy of errors in this instance....from the parents to the range to the instructor.

[Serk]

I guess by your line of thinking then I'd be an irresponsible parent. If I had the means to afford fully automatic weapons, I'd have safes full of them. And, if I'd judged my kids old enough to handle them at 9 years old, you bet I'd have them out at my range firing them. I would have handled it differently (1 round in the magazine until they're handling that well, then 2 rounds in the magazine until they're handling that well, etc) but that'd be me in my role as a firearm instructor, not my role as a parent.

If I didn't feel competent in my role as a firearm instructor, I'd hire someone who was to handle that part for me, which is what the parents in this situation did.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but under a controlled environment, I really see no difference between a 9 year old firing a fully automatic weapon and a 9 year old riding a dirt bike. They're both potentially extremely dangerous activities that can be highly fun as well, but handled with the proper precautions can have an acceptable risk level.

[cma1]

nothing wrong with disagreeing. if we all thought the same way it would be pretty boring, huh ?

[Xtracho]

I don't presume to judge how anyone raises their children and your supposition is wrong. Just as I do not consider you competent to make a judgment on how I raise mine.

Did I write that I would not own an automatic weapon? If they were legal to own I would surely have one. And owning one would mean I would certainly teach my girls to shoot it. Since I am gone from my family for extended periods and do not have the luxury of being there to protect them at all times I would want them to be able to handle every weapon in the household. However I would not allow them to fire one to tick off a box on their "bucket list."

Risk? Sure...risk in it all. My baby girl just completed her first parachute jump and is a certified diver. All done with the proper training. Would not have it any other way.

I do not wrap my kids in a cocoon to shield them from the risks in this world. And I see no need to trot out my resume to validate how I have trained and raised my kids to suit the opinions of others.

[Serk]

nothing wrong with disagreeing. if we all thought the same way it would be pretty boring, huh ?

[solo1]

nothing wrong with disagreeing. if we all thought the same way it would be pretty boring, huh ?

[Serk]

I will have to leave this one final parting shot (Get it?)

Given the RIGHT little girl, with the right training, there's no reason they can't competently and safely fire a full auto firearm...

Katelyn Francis - FB3G 2012 Stage 1- American Patriot in the making!

[solo1]

   Wow!

[Patrick]

I'd be willing to bet that this was not the first day katelyn ever pulled a trigger. 

[Willow]

I can't be sure of what I would or would not bet on.  Well, I can, because I don't usually bet, but there is precious little detail regarding what information was made available, and even what actually took place other than the predictable loss of control from the recoil.

I first fired a fully automatic weapon at seventeen.  It was under adequate supervision.  I won't say whom I believe to be at fault in this incident.  I try to hold a policy of not speaking ill of the dead with the possible exception of Senator Edward Kennedy.

I've tried to keep up with this discussion and stayed primarily out of it.  I will tell you I've lost a great deal of respect for some folks ability to make reasonably logical conclusions.

I'm saddened for members of both families that have lost in this incident, but mostly for the family that lost a thirty-nine year old father.  I hope the range that makes its money on people's excitement over shooting what they otherwise have not been able to shoot will be much more careful in the future.  I hope all such ranges will be more careful.  I'm not so sure I'm ready to condemn them outright because their motivation is not so much different than that of the owners of roller coasters.

Those are just my thoughts.  Don't bother engaging me because the whole thread has become highly illogical and presumptive.  I won't bother with further participation.  I'll only read it as necessary to administer as required. 

[Patrick]

I can't be sure of what I would or would not bet on.  Well, I can, because I don't usually bet, but there is precious little detail regarding what information was made available, and even what actually took place other than the predictable loss of control from the recoil.

I first fired a fully automatic weapon at seventeen.  It was under adequate supervision.  I won't say whom I believe to be at fault in this incident.  I try to hold a policy of not speaking ill of the dead with the possible exception of Senator Edward Kennedy.

I've tried to keep up with this discussion and stayed primarily out of it.  I will tell you I've lost a great deal of respect for some folks ability to make reasonably logical conclusions.

I'm saddened for members of both families that have lost in this incident, but mostly for the family that lost a thirty-nine year old father.  I hope the range that makes its money on people's excitement over shooting what they otherwise have not been able to shoot will be much more careful in the future.  I hope all such ranges will be more careful.  I'm not so sure I'm ready to condemn them outright because their motivation is not so much different than that of the owners of roller coasters.

Those are just my thoughts.  Don't bother engaging me because the whole thread has become highly illogical and presumptive.  I won't bother with further participation.  I'll only read it as necessary to administer as required. 

Do you know who the Katelyn is that I referred too ?  If not, just watch the video.

[f6gal]

I guess by your line of thinking then I'd be an irresponsible parent. If I had the means to afford fully automatic weapons, I'd have safes full of them. And, if I'd judged my kids old enough to handle them at 9 years old, you bet I'd have them out at my range firing them. I would have handled it differently (1 round in the magazine until they're handling that well, then 2 rounds in the magazine until they're handling that well, etc) but that'd be me in my role as a firearm instructor, not my role as a parent.

If I didn't feel competent in my role as a firearm instructor, I'd hire someone who was to handle that part for me, which is what the parents in this situation did.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but under a controlled environment, I really see no difference between a 9 year old firing a fully automatic weapon and a 9 year old riding a dirt bike. They're both potentially extremely dangerous activities that can be highly fun as well, but handled with the proper precautions can have an acceptable risk level.

I agree completely!  The parents may not have known that much about firearms (they were from New Jersey after all ).  They trusted the professional to know what was safe and to make sure it was safe.  The ultimate responsibility was with the instructor.  It could have been handled safely... it was not.  It is unfortunate that he paid the ultimate price for his errors and lapses in judgment.  If he had survived, I'm fairly certain he would be saying, "man, I screwed up!"

[f6gal]

I try to hold a policy of not speaking ill of the dead with the possible exception of Senator Edward Kennedy.

Pointing out a mistake is not speaking ill of the dead, is it?  The instructor was probably a wonderful human being who made a couple of mistakes that had tragic consequences.

I first fired a fully automatic weapon at seventeen. It was under adequate supervision.

I was a bit younger and weighed about 85 lbs... I was in good hands, as well.

[Willow]

Do you know who the Katelyn is that I referred too ?  If not, just watch the video.

I do, actually and I watched the video.  She does appear to be ever so slightly experienced.  

It was just a semi-humorous way of opening the thought and commenting on the great amount of speculation that has been done regarding the originally posted incident.  My post was certainly not primarily or even at all a response to your observations.  Obviously poor technique on my part to use your post as a segue.