TRAGIC SHOOTING OF A GUN INSTRUCTOR

[Paxton]

I am certain that her parents are horrified by this accident. It gives a new meaning to the expression guns don't kill people...
people kill people, (now including  9-year olds.)  

Actually, this kind of event happens... (a couple of times per year?).
This is not an isolated incident wherein a child accidentally kills other(s).
The simple difference here is that we can see it in video.

That aside, If I was her parents I'd would anticipate Criminal Charges connected to Child Endangerment.
I would expect the State taking my child into Custody and Law Suits coming from all directions, especially
after the mourning is over.  ???

You'll see ALL media out crying for background checks. Assuming that these folks had no reason to be denied,
a background check would not have made a bit of difference.

This will remain in the child's mind forever. A major tragedy. I send my best thoughts and best wishes to both families.
This is a tragedy from every angle.
Now, wait 'till ALL media demonizes these parents.

On a different thought; I can't predict how soon this thread would deteriorate triggering a race to the bottom.

DISCLAIMER: As usual, a major event, (like bombarding high-value targets in Syria) would trump this story .
Such is the nature of our 24-hour ALL media News Cycle...  

[f6gal]

The fault here lies completely with the instructor. Unfortunately, he paid for his errors with his life. Anyone who has used automatic weapons knows that upward and left is the natural recoil. What the heck was the instructor doing over there??  He should have been behind the child, slightly right. He also should have been supporting her arm and body, at least the first few times, and then assessed if she could handle the recoil. Even a seasoned shooter, when using an automatic for the first time, is surprised by the recoil of the successive shots.
You are right that the poor little girl will have to live with this forever. However, I disagree that the parents will be charged. In fact, it is more likely that the parents will sue the gun range for traumatizing their daughter.  

[Paxton]

f6gal;
I had thought along similar lines (instructor's fault) but I know nothin' about guns and/or training procedures.
I agree that the parents would sue or counter sue. Such is the nature of our litigious society.
Eventually, Justice will be served to "He, who has the best Lawyer."    Amazing how life can go from heaven to hell in a nanosecond.  ???

[Moonshot_1]

I would expect that it would take some considerable firearms experience before begining to handle a powerful fully automatic weapon.

Putting an Uzi in the hands of a litttle 9 year old girl is insane.

Totally agree the complete fault belongs to the instructor.

The girl will have to live with that forever. I hope she will understand it wasn't her fault.

[f6gal]

My thoughts go out to both families; such a tragedy.  Guns and motorcycles both require vigilance; mistakes can be deadly.

[Willow]

...
This is not an isolated incident wherein a child accidentally kills other(s).
... 

It really is, isn't it?  Does nothing to mitigate the tragedy and grief but is IS an isolated incident.

... but I know nothin' about guns and/or training procedures.  

Demonstrated.

[Serk]

...
This is not an isolated incident wherein a child accidentally kills other(s).
...  

It really is, isn't it?  Does nothing to mitigate the tragedy and grief but is IS an isolated incident.

While I'll definitely agree it's an EXTREMELY rare occurrence (I'd venture to say statistically more kids are killed in car crashes being driven to and from anti-gun rallies) it's not a wholly unique situation. At least this time it was the person truly to blame that paid the price for his momentary lapse of reason.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/t/boy-accidentally-kills-self-gun-show/

(They pressed manslaughter charges against the instructor, but he was acquitted - http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/jury_finds_edward_fleury_innoc.html )

[Jess from VA]

I once had occasion to teach a fellow capt and his wife in using a riot 870 shotgun.  He had some little prior experience.  When it was her turn I said (again).... do not get excited by the recoil and turn around and point that thing at us. OK, I won't.  As she faced the target, I walked right up behind her and stood.  After her 100lb self took the blast in the shoulder (OO buck) (and I made sure she had it tightly mounted), she immediately proceeded to swing the shotgun around in excitement, and I caught the forend in my hand.  What did I tell you?  Oh yeah.... crap.  (Out in the desert badlands, not a range)

Of course, it cannot go boom again without racking the slide, but it is still poor form to point guns at spectators.

Standing right behind a novice is where you should be.  Full auto or otherwise.

[pendrijo]

Excellent, that was your experience which told you to stand behind that women knowing how she would react. Too bad for instructor, he let his guard down and paid price for it.

[bagelboy]

Coming from a family of gun owners, I cannot see how parents would let a 9 year old fire a weapon like that. I also don't think the instructor should be letting a 9 year old fire it.  Teaching gun safety is important in a home that has guns, but some things need to wait. An adult would feel the recoil of that weapon, how could a 9 year old handle it. The strength of a 9 year old is not that of an adult. I may get some on this forum upset, but I still say 9 years old is way too young!

[musclehead]

I once had occasion to teach a fellow capt and his wife in using a riot 870 shotgun.  He had some little prior experience.  When it was her turn I said (again).... do not get excited by the recoil and turn around and point that thing at us. OK, I won't.  As she faced the target, I walked right up behind her and stood.  After her 100lb self took the blast in the shoulder (OO buck) (and I made sure she had it tightly mounted), she immediately proceeded to swing the shotgun around in excitement, and I caught the forend in my hand.  What did I tell you?  Oh yeah.... crap.  (Out in the desert badlands, not a range)

Of course, it cannot go boom again without racking the slide, but it is still poor form to point guns at spectators.

Standing right behind a novice is where you should be.  Full auto or otherwise.

for safety's sake if I were instructing a novice I'd only put one round in the firearm. they are rookies and expected to make mistakes.

this was too much gun for such a little girl, and full auto too? I wonder if she had fired it in semi auto first, it would help to walk before you run.

[Patrick]

From the short video of the event that I saw, the girl did fire the gun on semi and seemed to handle the gun acceptably. Apparently this model was capable of full auto operation and the instructor 'flipped the switch' and let the little girl fire it. I can't imagine what that instructor was thinking, I would have not done that.

[Robert]

I watched the video instead of seeing clips and had to rewrite this post. Being to complacent with guns letting a young girl shoot and happening in a split second were the culprits. He stood to the left almost in front of her and when he moved he actually stuck his head in the way while she was pulling left. I hope there will be no gov involvement to traumatize the situation more. It follows the classic lines of anyone who is inexperienced with a machine gun to let it go where it wants. He was way to excited and way to fast in his instruction. I dont think either was prepared when she pulled the trigger.

[solo1]

As a NRA firearms instructor for over 40 years, I was appalled to see this.  As noted, the instructor was in the wrong place, the little girl was allowed to shoot a fully automatic weapon with no knowledge and  strength to hold the weapon downrange.  Now this young girl is saddled with that moment the rest of her life.

To me, this reflects the present day attitude which I've seen on you tube.  There are a great number of instances on You Tube where a "gun expert"  gives another person a gun to shoot and then laughs hysterically when the new shooter is overcome by the "unexpected" recoil with sometimes disastrous results.

Put that together with ADDITIONAL people that know NOTHING about guns and it's another problem for experienced and responsible gun owners.

Guns command respect ALL of the time. The instructor assumed that things were under control.

Very sad.

[Bigwolf]

Well said Solo1.

I was not there and will probably never see more than a short version of the video so maybe I am seeing/hearing this all wrong.  The press always embellishes these things.  But I keep thinking.......  Why in the hell would anyone hand a loaded full auto uzi to a skinny little 9 year old female and expect her to be able to handle the recoil?    Now we have yet another publicity nightmare.  Another example of how careless and unthinking gun owners, and even gun instructors, are.  I hope this is quickly forgotten by the press but I doubt it will be.

A few years ago there were only 3 recorded firing range fatalities.  Now, with all the increased interest in personal carry and the related increase in overnight (fly by night) instructors, there seems to be a lot more casualties.  Obviously common sense and common safety practice is not keeping up.  As instructors we are relied upon to know what we are doing/talking about and to ensure safety.  I believe we must demonstrate that skill and safety to everyone all the time.  To do otherwise is to make trouble for the shooting industry, shooting sports, and gun owners in general.

I have spent a lot of time on the range as an instructor and safety officer.  In that capacity, I have seen some students and several instructors overflowing with testosterone.  That "I'm the man" attitude is dangerous when coupled with firearms.  I have also seen several paid instructors that were not so great at that job.

My condolences to the deceased.  I do not mean to disrespect him.  However, I am deeply troubled by this news.  I do not know if the parents pressured him to allow the girl to shoot the Uzi.  I do not know if he was tired or otherwise distracted. 

These things I do know.  Whatever the reason, he paid a heavy price for his lapse of attention.  This is another piece of ammunition for anti gunners to show that gun owners cannot be trusted to be responsible.   I do not like the way the girl was positioned/holding the Uzi at the beginning of the video when she fired the one single round.  Both elbows and wrists are bent putting the full recoil into arm muscles.  Women are naturally weaker in these muscles than men and even men would struggle to control a full auto with arms in this position.  It is a very sad event for both families and for the shooting community as a whole.

Bigwolf

[Edvalk]

Burgers and bullets........ Really

[signart]

Let an instructor put a nine year old girl on a Valkyrie, hold it up while she gives it the throttle, and tell her to let out the clutch while her parents video it.
Makes just as much sense.
9 is not too young to learn to ride a motorcycle or learn to shoot and teach safety to foremost. My grandson rides a crf 50 and he is four years old. The parents are equally responsible, both used poor judgment. There is no justification for this tragedy.

[solo1]

I have spent a lot of time on the range as an instructor and safety officer.  In that capacity, I have seen some students and several instructors overflowing with testosterone.    QUOTE by Big Wolf

Exactly!   Also as a long time instructor I've seen the same.  IMHO, the average male thinks that he was born with a natural aptitude for gun safety AND YOU BETTER NOT TELL HIM OTHERWISE!

I've also been a range officer but there I have some discretion.  I've booted a few off the range that were unsafe and thought that they knew it all! 

I much rather teach gun safety to women.  They come in with a clean slate and learn!  In fact, I've also learned a lot by given thoughts to how to answer their seemingly dumb questions which really aren't dumb.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I believe it's nothing more than a tragic mistake on the part of the instructor. Would I have my 9 year old granddaughter fire an Uzi in auto mode? NO, (nor 9 year grandson). But the parents did it in a supervised situation with certified instructor and range manager. The poor guy was in his 30's and made a mistake that ended his life. I've made plenty of mistakes that could have ended my life, just got lucky. The guy that owns the business is a pretty stand up guy and has always put safety at the forefront . I'm sure they will change the way they deal with kids.

[MAD6Gun]

 I don't thing 9 is to young to learn how to shoot with proper instruction. Obviously this 9 year old didn't. I was shooting at that age. Granted NOT full auto but shooting none the same. Its a tragedy no matter how you look at it. The instructor SHOULD have known better.

[cma1]

my god folks ! is everyone missing who's fault this is ? doesn't anyone realize her parents allowed this to happen ? my dad was a died in the wool 2cd amendment supporter, myself and 3 brothers have been hunting all our lives, the first time I had my hands on a full auto was in the military during viet nam. my dad would have kicked your butt for just suggesting someone hand one of his kids a full auto weapon, not at 16 years old, let alone 9. her parents are ultimately at fault here, no instructor can force the issue, no range owner has the power to make your 9 year old shoot any gun, the parents did. I suffer from ptsd, not from war so much as from being a cop for so many years and seeing what we all see. the shrink told me he had never examined a former cop that wasn't suffering from it, but this little girl will suffer from it for the rest of her life. someone please add some intelligence to this thread. certainly the instructor should have said no, the range owner should have said no, but more important the parents should have not allowed it.

[Jess from VA]

That may all be true sir, but the direct and immediate cause of the instructor's death was his own negligence.  He was the one in charge and in control, and the one relied upon by all concerned, and he did..... poorly.

[Patrick]

Well, I've wondered too if the parents had anything to do with the instructor 'flipping the switch' on that gun. I've not read or heard anything about that. And I rather doubt the parents would admit that at this time if they had.

[cma1]

listen, you can hide your head in the sand all you want. nine year old girls don't walk on the range, pay a fee and have someone give them a machine gun. I am appalled that the gun range allowed it even with the parents permission.

if I were the range officer (and I have been) I would have shut the range down and called local law enforcement before allowing a little girl to handle that gun. in Colorado the parents would already be charged with child abuse and locked up.

when I think of all the therapy this little girl will have to endure just to sleep at night it just infuriates me. some people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.

so now the gun control people will be falling out of the woodwork again. the little girls school will have her on terrorist watch, I mean why not, she's girl with assault weapon experience, right ? what if she gets mad at a teacher and goes home after her dads uzi ?

blame the instructor, well sure he has some responsibility, just like I said, no 9 year old would have been allowed to touch that gun, ever ! never on my watch! and I believe anyone who has the right to own one should not be told by the government they can't. but that ain't a right given to 9 year olds. as far as I'm concerned the range officer got exactly what he allowed. too bad, because now his kids get to suffer too.

where did it start ???? with her damn parents !!!!

at least the range will no longer allow it, they won't be able to steal enough money pay for liability insurance after the dust clears, so maybe someone can put a go cart track on the property.

o.k. enough, I'm off my soap box now. lets all pray for everyone involved, and thank God the little girl didn't shoot her mom or heaven forbid, herself.

[Felonious Thump]

The fault here lies completely with the instructor. Unfortunately, he paid for his errors with his life. Anyone who has used automatic weapons knows that upward and left is the natural recoil. What the heck was the instructor doing over there??  He should have been behind the child, slightly right. He also should have been supporting her arm and body, at least the first few times, and then assessed if she could handle the recoil. Even a seasoned shooter, when using an automatic for the first time, is surprised by the recoil of the successive shots.
You are right that the poor little girl will have to live with this forever. However, I disagree that the parents will be charged. In fact, it is more likely that the parents will sue the gun range for traumatizing their daughter.  

I can't believe that an instructor with any experience could be so dumb. I blame him for his own death, and the poor child will have to live with this the rest of her life. I remember shooting an "elephant" gun at 12. One shot, prone on the ground, boot toes dug in to the ground. Everyone was at least 10 feet behind me. I swear it pushed me back a couple inches. Forget the calibre, it's been a while...  gun safety should always be number one!

[Bob E.]

I saw an interview with the gun range owner yesterday. I can't believe he had agreed to it without a lawyer. Apparently, this range rented various guns to the public including the full auto that this girl fired. He also said that all of his instructors were either ex-military or ex-law enforcement and were fully trained and qualified. He said their policy was 8 yrs old for this gun. This girl was 9 and that firing a full auto was on her "bucket list"...his words. So her parents brought her their for a treat.

Personally, I wonder why a 9 yr old girl would have this in her bucket list, but maybe she did. But on the other hand, I guess if it were a little boy that was into playing cops and robbers, it might be less surprising that the kid would think something like this would be cool. My own daughter is 7 and says she wants to be a cop when she grows up.  So maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

I also wonder why the parents thought it would be a good idea to indulge her in this wish. But again, on the other hand, they took her to a range with professional instructors. So they probably had every expectation that it would be safe and fun.

But most of all, I wonder why the professionals at the range thought their 8yr old age limit for firearms like this was reasonable. Ultimately, as stated above, the range instructor was responsible for the safety. My feeling is that he was a little too comfortable around guns and made the mistake of letting his guard down. And it cost him his life and will cost this girl and her family a lot of grief and therapy. Truly a sad situation for all sides.

[cma1]

well said bob.

and bring your daughter around when she's old enough and i'll talk some sense into her.

[Xtracho]

This was a tragedy of errors from all angles with enough blame to go around several times. Casting all the blame on one party is simply not seeing the big picture.

[solo1]

I know that all of us here are thinking about the girl and what she will be living with, that can't be stressed enough.  We might keep in mind, though, that much of the general public only know about fully automatic weapons from what they see they see in movies, and we all know what crap that is.

Maybe the parents had no idea about real world recoil and said "go for it"   I don't know.

What we do know is that the instructor was the ultimate person responsible and he paid for it with his life..............and he leaves a little girl with an impossible memory of it all.

[Spirited-6]

Personally, I wonder why a 9 yr old girl would have this in her bucket list, but maybe she did. But on the other hand, I guess if it were a little boy that was into playing cops and robbers, it might be less surprising that the kid would think something like this would be cool. My own daughter is 7 and says she wants to be a cop when she grows up.  So maybe I shouldn't be surprised


WHY ! Who would subject a 9 YO to a gun that only kills. I`m lost for sure...

[Serk]

WHY ! Who would subject a 9 YO to a gun that only kills. I`m lost for sure...

For the same reasons you would "subject" a 9 year old to a dirt bike, or allow them to ride on the back of a street bike, or allow them to drive a beat up old truck around a field, or allow them to parachute or allow them to swim or... anything really.

Life is risk.

We do what we can to mitigate those risks. Sometimes the mitigation of risk isn't fully realized (Such as this case) and  sometimes, no matter how careful you are, Murphy just smiles and bad things happen.

I've taught my daughter to shoot, and will teach my younger triplets to shoot as they get older. My daughter got her first rifle of her own (That stays in my safe) when she was 4, she was shooting an AR15 at 6. Here she is around 9-10ish firing a 7.62x39 AR15.

Yes, there are risks. But I'd venture the risks of her shooting, if handled properly which I do, are lower than the risk we faced by driving her from our home to our land to do the shooting in the first place...

[solo1]

Well said Serk!

After safety training and talks of responsibility, my Dad gave me a .22 when i was 10.  At 13 years old, i was solo hunting squirrels and yes,I did kill a few for the pot.

My daughter shot my .44 magnum Ruger at the age of 10.  All my kids were instructed in gun safety and respect.

I've been in the shooting sports for 74 years, have had no problems, it's been a rewarding sport, and ,IMO, there is no age limitations, if responsibility and safety instructions can be absorbed.

Perhaps i'm old fashioned to think such a thing today but i don't think so.

wayne

[cma1]

so you are putting a 22. cal rifle in the same category as a full blown uzi machine gun ??

guys, we all got our first .22 as kids, but the first time I had hands on a real live full auto was in the military, not at 9.

as parents we are expected by God to take care of the kids. I don't see where giving them a machine gun qualifies.

[solo1]

I won't argue with you as you are right.  A fully automatic weapon is beyond what I would ever need and the same would go for my kids. I also served in the Army Medical Corp in Korea in 1953 and I'm well aware of what a fully auto is capable of. I, too, think that it was a big mistake to let a 9 year old shoot one.

However, I was talking about responsibility, safety, and knowledge here and ANY caliber gun, .22 or 9mm, 5.56. or 30-06  needs a person with an understanding of safety and knowledge, behind the trigger.

Evidently, the instructor failed at explaining that and then failed at placing himself out of harm's way.

[cma1]

oh, don't get me wrong, unfortunetly the instructor got just what he earned, but he was an adult and well aware of the danger.

its just a damn shame the little girl is the one who will bear the long term burden. I blame the parents for starting the entire scenario, if they had used some mature reasoning the little girl would have been in the backyard playing with her dog instead of on a range test driving an uzi.

[czuch]

So very sad.
Culpability is with the "adults". A 9 year old with a "Bucket list"?? Thats suspect on its face.
The instructor should have said no. I'll bet she'll be told, "No", alot more now.
The kid is still in .22 level. Train with what you're gonna use.
Poor kid.

[cma1]

my wifes neiphew has 3 of the most beautiful (talking hot) teenage daughters you are apt to find. the youngest is 13. she loves to hunt with her dad. he started her out with a bb gun, took her to a .22 and this year she took and passed a hunter safety course in Nevada. I bought her a single shot H&R .270 to go elk hunting with her dad this year.

now her dad, former seal, and now a retired commander, who has seen real battle, wouldn't allow any of his daughters to get near an assault weapon. like he says, assault weapons may be fun to shoot, but except for killing your enemy have very little use.

there was actually a test ran last year where they took a sheet of plywood and covered it with balloons. they gave one shooter an uzi and 50 rounds of ammo, the other got a Winchester model 70 in .308. the guy with the uzi of course used up his ammo in a few seconds. the count was 11 balloons actually hit. the guy with the rifle taking time to aim hit all the balloons he had ammo to shoot. machine guns are real neat to see your favorite movie star go after the local gang members with, but take it from an old soldier, I'd pick an M-14 over one every time.

I have a bigger issue with the two older girls who put way too much personal information on the internet than the one with the gun.

[solo1]

 I'd pick an M-14 over one every time. QUOTE by cma1

Definitely!  I've always wanted one, I did have an M! Garand but the M14 is a big improvement ,actually the M1A for citizens.

[Jess from VA]

What a cool dad.   


Mine liked firearms but never had any, and all he ever showed me how to shoot was his dad's 1908 vest pocket Colt .25 auto, which was fun, but you couldn't hit anything with it (except maybe the house).  LOL  I have it now.

It was only after I got started shooting and a little competing and buying firearms in my 20s, that he got back into it and purchased a few.  I gave him my old Smith and Wesson riot gun after I got my first 870.

[Hooter]

My whole take on this boils down to one word by somebody...NO!