Changed the kitchen faucet today. What major PITA! :(

[John Schmidt]

It's bad enough you have to lay on your back to reach the nuts under the faucet and behind the sink so you can remove the old one and install the new one. You know the ones, they're about 10" further away than your arm can reach. Then to add to the frustration, trying to reach the feeder pipes clear in the back of the cabinet area. When you have a double sink and there's a separation underneath, why on earth don't they install those feeder pipes through that area so the on/off controls are near the front? Then I could have sat on the floor and hooked the flex tubes to them, instead of laying on my back, 4" off the floor which felt really great, cramped space but just barely enough to work with. I'll be stove up for a week now, seems I don't bend like I used to, must be something in the water! Oh well, if this one lasts as long as the old one(not likely these days), it won't be me replacing it.

Just venting, but I'll bet I'm not alone in this experience. By the way, the tool to reach those nuts under the sink; $20 at Home Depot. Decided to go without. 

[Willow]

Glad we could provide the venting service, John, and I'm glad you got that difficult task done.   

[hubcapsc]

By the way, the tool to reach those nuts under the sink; $20 at Home Depot. Decided to go without

If I had to change out a kitchen faucet, I'd rather have that tool than $20 any day!

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

Been there, done that, got the shitty Tshirt John.

Most plumber's work requires a contortionist with long arms and a rubber back.

The actual piping, hardware, tools and process is pretty simple most of the time  (unless they built your house on the cheap and put no shutoffs in, or buried essential parts behind walls that have to be ripped out and repaired, or the stuff is so old it's corroded into a nonmovable mass).  But when you have to be a yoga master to get to the work, it all sucks, esp when you have attained a degree of musculoskeletal maturity (get foking old).  

I had a good friend who was his own plumbing company.  He made better money than I ever did as a shyster, and didn't have to sit thru ten years of classrooms to get there.  We traded services and he helped me out many times, and I always paid even though he didn't want me to.  You don't abuse a friend, if he's a friend, esp in his chosen profession.  

He moved away, and I really miss him (and I need his services again).  As it is, I poop downstairs (only), and shower upstairs (only).  This is really a satisfactory situation as I have no woman to increase my hearing loss over it.  Plus, I need the exercise of running up and down the stairs.  That's my story and I'm stuck with it.

One of these days, I really am going to have to break down and actually hire a plumber.  I know my limitations, and luck with plumbing.  I did manage to do a good, competent sump pump replacement (laying on my side, working down a hole) last year.  So I quit when I was ahead.  

The last time I replaced my kitchen sink garbage disposal, it all went great right up until I cut myself to the bone with a utility knife removing a 20yo harry-homeowner wiring job covered with three rolls of electrical tape.  Did get to meet a nice new doctor at the ER so it wasn't a complete bust.  In my case, I cannot get combat pay for doing my own plumbing, and if I keep at it I may end up with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.  

And Mike's right, that tool is probably worth way more than $20

[Tx Bohemian]

Been there, done that, got the shitty Tshirt John.

Me too, a few times.
Not easy for us "not spring chickens" to contort like that anymore.

And Mike's right, that tool is probably worth way more than $20 

Mike is right, mine sits in the tool box gathering dust and taking up space 99% of the time, but it's worth it's weight in gold when needed!!

[BobB]

Ok, here's my plumbing story.  We had a sticking hot water faucet in our main floor half bath just off the kitchen.  I could not do anything with it so I went in to Home Depot or whatever and purchased a new three piece faucet set, the modern type with the spout coming up and curving back down.  Pulled out the old faucet set and went to install the new one.  At this point something did not look right, the new spout was noticeably angled out from the wall.  When the plumber installed the pedestal sink 25 years ago, he could not get it level and it was always tilted slightly back to front.  The new faucet made this much more apparent, so I decided to try to correct it.  Sometimes I wish I wasn't such a perfectionist, because I could not do any better than the plumber.  Time to replace the pedestal sink.  Ok, now this is getting serious so the wife decided that the wall paper also had to go.  Many hours of work later I got a new
pedistal sink, what I thought was a bargin.  I decided that the original anchores into the dry wall will not due, so I cut out the drywall and inserted a horizontal 2x6 in the wall, afterwords replacing the drywall. 
Now it's time to paint the walls and ceiling, done that.  I then installed the new pedestal sink, faucet set, new mirror and light fixture.  Ok, that should be it, but the commode did not match the new sink.
Went out to price the commode that matched the new sink.  This is where my bargin sink cost me big bucks.  The matching commode cost hundreds of dollars more than expected.  Ouch!  But I'm locked in to this so we take the hit and install this new commode replacing a perfectly good one.  Done!

So that stinking sticky faucet caused me to completely redo this bath room, putting in many hours of work and my pocket book was about $1000 lighter.    

[old2soon]

Basin wrench is kinda like a pistol-when you need one you REALLY need one!  John-hope it don't take all winter to unkink yer back.  RIDE SAFE. P S-bet that $20.00 looks like a bargain-NOW!  RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

Not going to run out and join the plumbers union ay time soon huh John ?   

Hope your back unkinks soon.

[John Schmidt]

Well, my honey is happy and it gave her a chance to clean out the collection of stuff under the sink. As long as she's happy, I'm happy....you know how that goes. As for me, it's not so much the back as it is the hip I was laying on, which happened to be the same one I've been getting treaments for the past 12 months. You're laying on the floor of the cabinet which is about 4" above the kitchen floor. Nice postion for Plastic Man. It all looks great and no leaks.....so far.   

[Michvalk]

When I replaced the kitchen sink faucet, I replaced the lines as well. They had lines that adapted from copper to plastic, then to the faucet with plastic couplers. I just had to replace the kitchen faucet again a couple of months ago, and changed the whole thing without wrenches at all. I figured I would have to replace everything again, but the stuff was just like new. I got the stuff 20  or more years ago, and can't remember where I got it, but, must be available yet

[john]

                   "  the tool to reach those nuts under the sink; $20 at Home Depot "
                         2 bucks at a yard sale ... never have used it       ???

[cookiedough]

One of my valuable creature comforts that I use for any type of sitting or laying or anything involving work on or just off the ground is a BOAT CUSHION or two of them.  Well worth the 10 bucks or so each will usually last 20+ years of hard use. 

That boat cushion or 2 laying on them would help prevent the soreness, somewhat at least, for sure. 

Don't you love how a 2-3 hour project turns into a weekend long pain in the keester?  Have had a few of them myself. 

Makes you feel good though doesn't it when all said and done. 

[hubcapsc]

I replaced the bathroom faucet a few months ago... an easier job in general,
but the new one had been made way easy for do-it-yourselfers... both the
old one and new one were kohler, and I've always disliked it. The old one
was about 15 years old, one of those kind with one handle. When I studied
how I was going to have to take it apart to replace the cartridge inside, I just
got the new one instead, it has two handles    It came with braided lines
that just dropped through the holes and a gasket under the escutcheon that
eliminated the use of plumber's putty.

The cartridge in the kitchen sink has seen better days, but I don't looking
forward to making a post like John's...

Oh yeah... those little supply valves they make for sinks and stuff... I hate them. They
all scream "I'm going to fail when you need me most!"... I imagine changing the ones
that do with lever operated brass ball valves, so what if they look a little industrial?
Anyone ever do anything like that (we probably have some real plumbers here)?

-Mike

[Willow]

Escutcheon.   

That was refreshing.  Thank you, Mike.   

[Earl43P]

I felt that pain a few months ago, replaced our kitchen faucet.

I took the entire SS double sink OUT from the countertop, after disconnecting both drains and feed lines. (I also sanded and buffed the SS sink while it was out, so it looked like new)

Job went well until I was (back on my back, looking up) resecuring those (12) metal clips that hold the sink to the counter. A chunk of metal debris dropped right into my eye, even though I had bifocal safety glasses on.  

Wife was away so I had to drive myself to the Urgent Care center and have the Dr numb that eye and remove the chunk.  He found it imbedded on the inside of the upper lid.  $20 co-pay and the pharmacy wanted $105 for antibiotic eye drops .

I didn't buy the eyedrops. Instead, I employed the Earl's Alternate Method, this one learned from my years of owning/hunting beagles. Periodically douche the (dog's) irritated/infected eye with Boric Acid solution.  Country vet told me to do that. I'd do it after many outings, just as a preventive measure. Hounds didn't seem to mind.

It does burn a bit when the eye is as irritated as mine was. It never got infected

Don't remove the foil seal...poke a hole instead so you can squirt it!

[BonS]

Oh yeah... those little supply valves they make for sinks and stuff... I hate them. They
all scream "I'm going to fail when you need me most!"... I imagine changing the ones
that do with lever operated brass ball valves, so what if they look a little industrial?
Anyone ever do anything like that (we probably have some real plumbers here)?

-Mike

Not a real plumber, but you can get 1/4-turn ball supply valves that work easier and more reliably than the traditional multi-turn, rubber seal supply valves. If you're really looking for ease of installation you can get the push-on Shark Bite brand.

BonS - "And it's chrome"  ;-)

[hubcapsc]

That looks a lot better than what I have... 15 years ago when I installed them, I got fed up with the
big-box-store ones and got slightly better ones at the plumbing supply house... here's the kind of
thing I've been imagining since then...



Do those new (to me) push on connections work well?

-Mike

[BonS]

Shark Bite has a stellar reputation. I wouldn't do a whole house with them due to their high cost but for repairs they can't be beat. The service valve is about $10 and it comes with a removal doohickey. They work with copper, PVC, CPVC and PEX but not iron pipe. Probably cheaper than brass ball valves.

[Robert]

That looks a lot better than what I have... 15 years ago when I installed them, I got fed up with the
big-box-store ones and got slightly better ones at the plumbing supply house... here's the kind of
thing I've been imagining since then...



Do those new (to me) push on connections work well?

-Mike

I am so on board with installing this valve also 

John I hate to rain on your parade but I bought a new faucet from the Depot a few months ago and the neck on it actually went south so I wound up replacing it again. Hope you don't have to do the same thing

[bigguy]

I've done more plumbing than I care to remember. I don't like it, and I'm not good at it, but I'm too chea .... uh I mean frugal to pay a pro to do it. Here's my last project.
Rinnai Tankless Hot Water Heater

[John Schmidt]

Bigguy, I can't use a tankless heater in place of ours since we have solar heating for the water. The t'stats in the tank control the amount and frequency of water being pumped through. There's one at the top and bottom and if it shows a difference in temps beyond the setting of both t'stats, it will then increase the movement of water through the solar panel and into the tank. We only have two panels but you can sure tell when the sun is shining even on a 30 deg. day. If it's cloudy and a lot of hot water has been used, the knob in the shower needs to be turned more to the hot side. If it's sunny out, very little is used on the hot side because it comes out much hotter. I could mount a small tankless unit with each of the sinks, especially those in the bathrooms since they're quite a distance from the tank and takes a while for the hot water to get back there. But since I had so much fun with the kitchen sink and the new faucet, I think I'll leave well enough alone.

[bigguy]

John, sounds like an interesting setup. I think you could also just put a small tank on your sinks, but feed them from your solar unit. Tanks are a lot less expensive that tankless, but I think you'd still get substantial energy savings since the water coming in would be preheated by your solar unit.
I keep fantasizing about putting in solar panels for both heat and electric as an auxiliary source. I'd like to be less dependent on the grid. But the up front costs have kept me out of the game so far.

[Jess from VA]

We had those tankless water heaters in the MiddleEast.  Called flash heaters.  If it was set up right with the pilot lit, when you turned on a hot water faucet, there would be a big flash in the unit as the propane ignited into burning flame over the coiled copper waterpipe.  

I don't know how the ones in the US work, but in my house, if you did not perform the ignition sequence correctly, they turned from flash heaters into exploding wall bombs.

Also, most residential propane was in small one gallon tanks.  We were also warned that the propane tanks in Ankara were of questionable quality and sometimes blew up, so better to stay with the one gallon tanks than larger ones, and I had to carry mine up 4-5 flights of stairs so the smaller tanks were lighter to carry up stairs.  And central heat was provided by coal furnaces in the building basements, and in the winter they were only fired up to really heat the building twice a day (mid morning and late afternoon).  Still have fond memories of being in my shower on winter mornings (at Ohh dark thirty military time in a freezing apartment) and having the little propane tank run dry and the water going from hot to icy cold, and having to run out on my apartment balcony soapy naked and freezing to quickly change propane tanks.  That'll wake you up in the morning boy.  

[cookiedough]

I've done more plumbing than I care to remember. I don't like it, and I'm not good at it, but I'm too chea .... uh I mean frugal to pay a pro to do it. Here's my last project.
Rinnai Tankless Hot Water Heater

2 years ago I had a plumber install a Noritz whole house natural gas tankless water heater.  It was over 2x's the cost plus about 500 in labor fees, well over 2 grand vs. say near 1 grand tops to install a tanked gas water heater.  I called several plumbers since mine leaked from tank after 17 years.  ALL said nowadays lucky to get 10-12 years tops out of one since the tank walls are so think made in china that they won't last 15+ years anymore.  Most recommended if going to live in same house for 15+ more years, to go tankless, so we did.

3 biggest issues is it wastes a ton more water since have to let it run for 1-2 minutes before hot water comes out.  2nd is if you do not keep the water say doing dishes in the sink running, water will go cold until you crank up the water supply more to get more hot water to turn on.  3rd and probably the biggest issue is you cannot take a hot shower and do laundry running hot water at the same time.  The shower gets cold water if you do running out and the wife doesn't like that. 

WE do seem to save about 10-15 bucks per month in gas usage vs. keeping a tanked water heater always hot all the time and water is cheap where we live.

By the way, our tankless water heater I performed last winter the cleaning out with sumppump and vinegar solution for 1 hour straight to clean out the coils and those on/off water valves as Hubcap mentioned one drips water now after messing with it and tinkered with it some with no luck and cannot get it from dripping a drip or two every 1 hour or so,  so gave up and just keep a small bucket underneath.  Any ideas?  I'm thinking to try disassembling it and thinking a small crud piece of debris got caught inside allowing a VERY tiny amount of water to pass on thru the shutoff??

[bigguy]

I think the biggest thing with a tankless is to get one big enough. Most of the time when I hear of problems with a tankless, it's because somebody didn't get a big enough unit. I got the 90 GPM model and can open every tap in my house at the same time with out dropping the temp. It's 80° above ambient, so even the coldest east Texas day I'll have and endless supply of hot water. I've got mine on a battery backup, so even if the power goes off I'm good.
I've also got some fixtures way too far down the pipes from the heater. But a tank doesn't improve that any. You still have to push hot water the same distance, with cold pipes sucking the heat out of the first couple of gallons. One of the things I love most about the tankless unit is that my 50 gallon tanked heater could never fill up the old iron bathtub upstairs because I'd run out of hot water before all of that metal warmed up. Not a problem with my tankless. It still takes a few minutes for the hot water to run all that distance, but once it get's there, it stays hot until I turn it off. I could solve that problem with a small tank heater to hold a reservoir of hot water. Feeding it from the hot water line would mean that I only heat a few gallons with the less efficient tank heater.
You should be able change the settings for coming on. If you have to really open a tap to get it going, you might want to set it to a lower GPM threshold. I like that a small leak in a faucet doesn't waste gas because that's not enough to kick on the heater. Mine also has two burner settings. Crack the tap a little and it comes on at the lowest setting. Open it up more, or open another tap and you can hear it crank up.
But to anybody considering one, let me say again. GET ONE THAT IS BIG ENOUGH! You're better off with a tank heater than a tankless that's "almost" big enough. And they are so much more expensive that I don't think you'll ever break even money wise. But if you want to just never worry about having enough hot water, then this is the route to go.

[cookiedough]

I think the biggest thing with a tankless is to get one big enough. Most of the time when I hear of problems with a tankless, it's because somebody didn't get a big enough unit. I got the 90 GPM model and can open every tap in my house at the same time with out dropping the temp. It's 80° above ambient, so even the coldest east Texas day I'll have and endless supply of hot water. I've got mine on a battery backup, so even if the power goes off I'm good.
I've also got some fixtures way too far down the pipes from the heater. But a tank doesn't improve that any. You still have to push hot water the same distance, with cold pipes sucking the heat out of the first couple of gallons. One of the things I love most about the tankless unit is that my 50 gallon tanked heater could never fill up the old iron bathtub upstairs because I'd run out of hot water before all of that metal warmed up. Not a problem with my tankless. It still takes a few minutes for the hot water to run all that distance, but once it get's there, it stays hot until I turn it off. I could solve that problem with a small tank heater to hold a reservoir of hot water. Feeding it from the hot water line would mean that I only heat a few gallons with the less efficient tank heater.
You should be able change the settings for coming on. If you have to really open a tap to get it going, you might want to set it to a lower GPM threshold. I like that a small leak in a faucet doesn't waste gas because that's not enough to kick on the heater. Mine also has two burner settings. Crack the tap a little and it comes on at the lowest setting. Open it up more, or open another tap and you can hear it crank up.
But to anybody considering one, let me say again. GET ONE THAT IS BIG ENOUGH! You're better off with a tank heater than a tankless that's "almost" big enough. And they are so much more expensive that I don't think you'll ever break even money wise. But if you want to just never worry about having enough hot water, then this is the route to go.

Yah, I have no idea on why my Noritz branded tankless water heater cannot run 2 items like shower and doing dishes or shower and laundry using hot water at same time.  My unit is big enough to handle a much larger household so am puzzled I would think 2 hot water items should be fine, but even the water pressure drops as well as the hot water running 2 items at same time.  Oh well,  I can live with it since small 1200 sq. foot ranch home. 

As far as recouping the cost being 2x's as expensive as a tanked water heater.  I have been told the tankless models should last 25-30 years while the tanked ones new made recently are only 12 years old lasting at most since thin sheet metal will leak water out by then by several plumbers telling me this.  Most say tanked water heaters on average last 8-10 years tops not much after that.  So, if you figure in that having to have 2 tanked vs. 1 tankless in 25 years plus the 10 bucks or so per month savings I have seen,  you are better off in the long run buying tankless if planning to live in same house the next 25 years.

I agree though, buy a larger tankless gas water heater since you will need it. 

[BonS]

I had twin 50 gallon American Standard tanks installed in 2003, with a pressure regulator @ 60 pis, and they both failed in 7 years. I replaced them with "Professional Rheem" units, added an expansion tank to reduce stress, and one of them failed after only 4 years. I don't have much hope that "I" can get much more than 4-7 years out of the junk that's on the market today. 

[Hooter]

Plumming in general is a PIA.

[Patrick]

Back to the original post. I don't have much of a problem with changing faucets even though I'm getting too darn old to be doing such things. I guess its just a matter of repetition, the more you do kinda thing. I just replaced a kitchen set for a friend last week along with a boiler supply that all decided to crap out at the same time.
Regarding on demand. I've installed a few. Some like them, some don't. There is a learning curve with them.
Myself, if using a boiler, I like indirect. They're just basically a heater core inside a tank and use a zone from the main boiler. They are about the most efficient way to build hot water. Mine has been going for 35 years [ Ford].